W.A. King on forcing cones

[Drew Hause]

Charles Askins “The Cone” Field & Stream, Nov. 1921
https://books.google.com/books?id=UPtAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA700&lpg
W.A. King for Parker Bros.
Referring to the cone, we ordinarily permit our shells to lap into it 1/8-inch, but as a matter of fact we have found that the majority of guns will shoot a better pattern with even more lap than this. In fact, we can secure extra good patterns by shooting extra long shells, permitting the lap to extent to the point where we begin to tear off the ends of the paper. At that point we do not seek to give more lap. In user’s hands we do not advocate the use of longer shells than those which give 1/8 lap.
As regards the shape of the chamber cones, we have tried very long taper cones, short, abrupt tapers, and now use on of a certain standard length, which is nothing but two reverse curves, easily run from the end of the chamber and as easily curved into the bore proper. When the tools are kept up so that these curves are correct, we consider that we have a properly shaped cone, and one that does no harm whatever to the shooting or patterning of the gun.

TPS no doubt has an engineering drawing for Parker chambers. The standard cone length for other U.S. makers was about 1/2".

Recognizing the shells then were roll-crimped and were (long) before plastic wads, I suspect Bro. King would be unimpressed by the "modern" extra long cones :)

[Gary Laudermilch]

I wonder what Mr. King meant when saying a better pattern. Tighter, more uniform?

[Richard Flanders]

Very interesting stuff Drew. Perhaps we can wake Mr. King up and have him run a new set of experiments on this issue using plastic vs paper hulls and plastic shot cups vs fiber wads, both of which would likely change the equation significantly. It's a different world now.

[Paul Ehlers]

My take away from this is.

Shooting 2 3/4" shells through a gun with 2 9/16"/ 2 5/8" chambers is perfectly okay to so. Being as Parkers were intentionally designed to shoot longer cases (with-in reason) in shorter chambers.

Accordingly in the short ten. Shooting 3" shells in 2 7/8" chambers would hold true as well.

[Drew Hause]

King's warning regarding checking the end of the case is important.

This image was taken by Will Evans; 2 1/2" chamber Parker intended for use with 2 5/8" roll-crimped shells

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24488932/413248264.jpg

2.5" chamber 20g Stevens 345
67mm case left - 65mm right

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24488932/412969745.jpg

Thoughts on long shells in short chambers are here about 1/3 down
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

[Dean Romig]

W.A. King for Parker Bros.
Referring to the cone, we ordinarily permit our shells to lap into it 1/8-inch, but as a matter of fact we have found that the majority of guns will shoot a better pattern with even more lap than this. In fact, we can secure extra good patterns by shooting extra long shells, permitting the lap to extent to the point where we begin to tear off the ends of the paper. At that point we do not seek to give more lap. In user’s hands we do not advocate the use of longer shells than those which give 1/8 lap.



Here, thanks to Drew, we see King saying that which we have been discussing for many years. My 1898 12 ga. DH (Titanic) with 2 9/16" chambers does exactly that with 2 3/4" plastic shells, and the recoil isn't noticeably any greater than an equivalent load in a 2 1/2" shells.





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[Dean Romig]

W.A. King for Parker Bros.

As regards the shape of the chamber cones, we have tried very long taper cones, short, abrupt tapers, and now use on of a certain standard length, which is nothing but two reverse curves, easily run from the end of the chamber and as easily curved into the bore proper. When the tools are kept up so that these curves are correct, we consider that we have a properly shaped cone, and one that does no harm whatever to the shooting or patterning of the gun.Recognizing the shells then were roll-crimped and were (long) before plastic wads, I suspect Bro. King would be unimpressed by the "modern" extra long cones :)


Regarding the "two reverse curves" in King's description of the cutting of the cone - this is exactly what Austin Hogan would term "OGEE cones" and described the cutting of Parker's chokes the same way... "OGEE choke tapers" and he plotted several of his own Parker's chokes and chambers, several of which I was given.





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[Dave Noreen]

Long ago, when Byron Sterling at Shuman's Gun Shop tipped me off to the fact that Winchester-Western was producing their 16-gauge Dove & Quail Loads in a compression formed hull similar to the AA in 12- or 20-gauge, I bought several flats. I shot some of those 2 3/4 inch shells in my 1928 vintage Sterlingworth Ejector Field that has 2 7/16 inch chambers intended for the old-style 2 9/16 inch shells. I didn't notice any shooting issues, the Doves fell and the gun seems fine to this day, but the "crimp memory" seems to have been ironed out of the hulls fired in that gun and they don't produce as nice a reload as those fired in 2 3/4 inch chambered guns. Thankfully about the time I ran out of my stash of WAA-16 wads that the Olins quit making, Claybuster came to the rescue, and my compression formed 16-gauge hulls are still in the rotation for 2 3/4 inch chambered guns. RSTs for the others.

[Drew Hause]

Pictures help us non-deep thinkin' types ;)

An exaggerated Ogee (from ogive) profile; chamber to right. For chokes; muzzle to left.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24488932/413955534.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Precisely.





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[Rick Riddell]

So based on the aforementioned above, the chamber, forcing cone and bore were designed to to shoot a longer shell to produce an idea chamber pressure and patterns when shooting Parkers during that time frame, but as innovation and technology changes it's probably not best to shoot modern longer shells in them? Do I have that right? Has anyone patterned longer shells in shorter chambers vs shorter shells?

[Drew Hause]

This is the 1907 Hunter Arms Chamber Specification

Forcing cones are slightly less than 1/2". The cone angle was shallower in the 1935 drawings with a length of about 5/8".

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/15234180/413842322.jpg

The forcing cone appears to be cut straight, BUT this is a Cerrosafe chamber and forcing cone casting, and there might be a slight Ogee

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/15234180/409684289.jpg

I have an Ithaca Specification drawing from 1935 kindly provided by Walt Snyder, which also shows a straight forcing cone angle

[Drew Hause]

Here you go Rick.

“Long Cartridges in Short Chambers”, Field, Jan. 30, 1892
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=false
2 1/2” chamber 12g
3 Dr. “E.C.” with 1 1/8 oz. shot in 2 1/2” case 1” pressure – 5,475 psi by LUP (+ 10-14% for modern transducer numbers)
3 1/2 Dr. with 1 1/4 oz. in 2 1/2” case – 6,200 psi
3 1/2 Dr. with 1 1/4 oz. in 2 3/4” case – 6,600 psi

“Mr. Griffith on Shotgun Patterns”, 1897 Lecture
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA234#v=onepage&q&f=false
p. 243 “Turnover” - case longer than the chamber
No. 9 2 1/2” case with 1/8” turnover
No. 10 3/8” turnover
No. 11 & No. 12 with 2 3/4” and 3” cases in 2 1/2” chambers = “…patchy patterns, clustering, and frequent balling…” Pattern examples on p.244
p. 245 “balling or clustering”
p. 247 Summary of patterns; Field, March 5, 1898
No. 9 - 1/8” turnover better pattern % than 10, 11 & 12

Pressures with 3 Dr. “Schultze” with 1 1/8 oz.
No. 9 – 2.13 tons = 6,040 psi (converted by Burrard’s formula)
No. 10 – 3.03 = 9,060 psi
No. 11 – 3.22 = 9,700 psi
No. 12 – 3.71 = 11,345 psi

“When long cases are used in short chambers, the paper overlaps the cone and causes greater resistance to passage of the shot and wads. The pressure then goes up considerably, while muzzle velocity and recoil are both increased.”

We all understand the studies used (thick) paper cases; not modern plastic cases and polyethylene wads

[Rick Riddell]

Once again Dr.D you are a wealth of information! Thank you very much for what you do and share!

[Paul Harm]

Why hasn't anyone brought up reason of only 1/2" forcing cones was because the fiber wads were only about 5/8" - 1/8" OP card and 1/2" cushion wad. With a 1/2" forcing cone the pressure was contained with less blow by. Maybe the over lap also helped seal things along with a slight pressure spike.

[Drew Hause]

Paul: starting on p.238 Mr. Griffith reported on loadings with various wads; soft vs. hard; thick vs. thin

[Drew Hause]

OTOH, and I have no idea what Bro. Bruette is saying

Dr. William A. Bruette, Guncraft: Guns, Ammunition, Wing & Trap Shooting, 1912 (Editor of Forest & Stream)
https://books.google.com/books?id=5g51K93as84C&dq

“Cause of Bad Patterns”
https://books.google.com/books?id=5g51K93as84C&pg=PA100&dq
The most general cause of bad patterns is tightness at the nose of the chamber, whereby the exit of the charge is impeded, and the pressure of the powder is accordingly increased. When the chamber is right and the shooting is bad the next thing to examine is the form of the cone joining the chamber to the 12-bore part of the barrel. This should be of not greater length than .25 of an inch, and the slope should be a true taper from the nose of the chamber to the barrel.
When the cone is excessively long the column of shot is apt to widen so as to occupy the greater diameter beyond the cartridge. Its subsequent compression to the diameter of the bore jams the pellets together, so causing a tendency to ball, or at any rate to deform them so as to interfere with their regular flight after leaving the muzzle.

[Dean Romig]

When the chamber is right and the shooting is bad the next thing to examine is the form of the cone joining the chamber to the 12-bore part of the barrel. This should be of not greater length than .25 of an inch, and the slope should be a true taper from the nose of the chamber to the barrel.
When the cone is excessively long the column of shot is apt to widen so as to occupy the greater diameter beyond the cartridge. Its subsequent compression to the diameter of the bore jams the pellets together, so causing a tendency to ball, or at any rate to deform them so as to interfere with their regular flight after leaving the muzzle.



Hmmm... Seems we’ve read the same thing about chokes going abruptly from the 12 bore barrel to the cone of the choke and that’s why Parker’s chokes are cut ogee (ogive).





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[Joe Graziano]

In the “newer” guns, I use 2 3/4 in shells and have had zero problems. I simply keep them to 2 3/4 dram equivalent. In the lifter, I use the incredibly light AA low noise, low recoil loads. All seem to work well for me.