Why Bernard on CH, CHE, andplain old C?

[Bill Holcombe]

I have looked through the forum and have not seen this discussed. If it has been, my apologies.

I am struck by the curiousness of the decision to put Bernard Barrels on the Grade C guns? I personally find them to be the most striking Damascus pattern I have seen in person and am surprised such a distinctive pattern was not reserved for the higher grades. Now granted I have never seen any finest damascus barrels in person so they may be better in person.

I am certain I am not the 1st to ponder this question so I figure some of you fellows can possibly enlighten me on the matter.

I am sure some of the allure of Bernards is tied to the less common nature of them then regular Damascus patterns, but I still find it somewhat puzzling.

[Brian Dudley]

I agree with you on them being the nicest looking. And some of the Laminated varieties are very nice as well.

The finer damascus seems to get washed out and too busy visually, in my opinion. But... they do require a lot more skill and time to make. So it makes sense that they would be reserved for higher grades and be priced accordingly.

The C grade is a bit of a gap-stop grade between D and B. They make have been chosen for that grade in krder to make it stand out more to perspective buyers. ???

[Bill Holcombe]

That is part of what I suspect because especially on the pre 1900 Cs, you get better checkering, finer scroll work, but the actual engraved animals are not much different then Ds in most cases. I just find it surprising they would make a whole other grade that's primary selling point was its barrel pattern. Though you have to consider, in the damascus era barrels were legitimately figured to be half the cost of the gun...not so much when fluid steel arrived, which is why I think the engraving on Cs changed so much in the early 1900s, both rondells and simpler B style engraving- 1 dog deeply engraved vs 2.

[Drew Hause]

Price for the "rough forged tubes" related to the complexity/artistry/time invested in the production thereof, and possibly to stand out from other U.S. makers. I've only seen a Bernard barrel on a Lefever.

Ferdinand Drissen 1897-1898 price list.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20den/a%20drissen%20gb.htm
The conversion of Belgian francs to U.S. dollars in 1900 was about 5 francs to 1 dollar.
The complete charge for the barrels and gunsmithing for ‘3 band Crolle’ was 80 francs or about $16. Note three grades of ‘Boston’ damascus. Barrels 2-6 were each a Twist variant, and obviously much cheaper to produce.
Bernard I & II (used on the C grade) are at the bottom

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/16082038/251293971.jpg

The most expensive barrels offered by Drissen were E. Heuse-Lemoine 1st quality 4-band Crolle’ at 165f and 6-band Crolle’ at 180f (about $36), and likely the tubes on Grade 5s and 6s.

[Dean Romig]

The Bernard barrels used on Parker Bros grade-4 is the 'Bernard I' by far the most striking of the Bernard tubes.

I think that using these barrels on the Grade 4 simply helps to set off and legitimize the extra expense for the Grade 4 as well as create some, as we say these days, "sizzle" which is a good marketing ploy.





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[Drew Hause]

Dean's image is from Manufacture Liegeoise D'Armes A Feu Damascus Salesman's Samples, published in Parker Pages in 2008 courtesy of Ken Waite Jr.

It has a subtle "Rose Pattern" and is clearly marked Bernard I.
No. 15 is labeled Bernard II and a more prominent "Rose Pattern". Maybe Dean could post a full size image.
It appears to me that No. 16 is "black & white" and No. 15 "browned"?

This is the Damascus sample display in the Buchsenmacher u. Jagdmuseum of Ferlach, Austria courtesy of Charles A. Herzog Sr. and Richard B. Hoover. Unfortunately the sample segments could not be removed from the display cases so the images were taken through the glass

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20069190/325120666.jpg

Bernard I; the bottom acid etched

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20069190/325224768.jpg

Acid etched Bernard I

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20069190/413291136.jpg

Bernard II

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20069190/325223859.jpg

c. 1900 product brochure illustration for N.J. Higny showing Quality No. 1 and 2 Bernard not much help
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20higny%20gb.htm

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19006385/332376336.jpg

Bernard variants in Joseph Juleinond de Nessonvaux samples, unfortunately not labeled :(

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19006385/411660179.jpg

Dr Gaddy's Bernard samples not labeled as to I or II, but with distinct rosettes

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/16082038/261510160.jpg

Parker Bernard courtesy the gold towel guy, and could be Bernard I

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19025099/361027812.jpg

This is Larry Frey's, with more distinct rosettes

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/386391629.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Found another U.S. maker offering Bernard; American Arms Co. Fox Gun Side-swing No. 8 in 1881
https://books.google.com/books?id=rEkhAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA242&lpg

and Colt

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17067005/275292203.jpg

Possibly Bernard I

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17067005/383022122.jpg

Remington 1875 Whitmore with Bernard I

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17067005/413734472.jpg

and of course numerous U.S. smiths used Lindner actions and barrels. This is a Wm. R. Schaefer & Son, Boston

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20948056/342682227.jpg

[Dean Romig]

This is a set of Bernard barrels I sent to Dale Edmonds. They turned out remarkably well with some of the best contrast I've seen.


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[Dean Romig]

This is the best I can do. These images were on one of the CD's that Austin Hogan gave to me.

It seems very likely that sample 15 was browned and 16 was finished in black & white.


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[Dean Romig]

And here is a set of orphaned and abused Lefever barrels I recently bought.


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[Jeff Kuss]

My bernard C.

[Craig Budgeon]

Back in the day when my interest in European guns was much more acute, I had been told by knowledge members of the gun trade that Bernard barrels were rare by any maker because the blanks were not produced in large quantities. Perhaps Parker picked the C grade to incorporate Bernard barrels because of its limited demand. Parker still produced nearly 1/3 of there composite barreled C grades with Damascus barrels rather than Bernard.

[Dean Romig]

According to the tables at the end of each grade in the Grades section of The Parker Story only 489 Parkers were ever made with Bernard Steel barrels. That's only 2/10ths of 1% of all Parkers ever made. I guess they really are special.





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[Drew Hause]

Bernard patterns, frequently acid etched, were the barrels of choice for high grade German/Austrian guns.
I've only see ONE English double with Bernard barrels; Charles Boswell courtesy of Paul Stevens. The Birmingham Proof House Trial did NOT include Bernard; I'm still not sure what "English machine-forged chequered 3 rod Damascus" was however
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18059733/413850218.jpg

The question remains if the Parker "Rose Pattern" Bernard was Bernard I or Bernard II. I've been calling the prominent rose pattern Bernard II for 10 years, and could be wrong; and posted all those images so anyone can be free to decide. I couldn't find in my files what Dr. Gaddy called the Parker pattern other than Bernard.
Until we have a definitive answer from Parker literature, it might be reasonable to just call it "Rose Pattern" Bernard.

BTW: Rosa Damascena

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20069190/363848040.jpg

"Rosebud" knife blade Damascus

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20432700/345892786.jpg

[Craig Budgeon]

After some thought I believe that the imaging of Bernard steel barrels prior to 1914 was very poor whether it was printed or photographed in black & white. Damascus was well known and a safe decision. Few knew that Bernard steel existed and fewer still actually had witnessed its beauty. There were no smart phones prior to 1914 and you were lucky to have a party line. PS. 1914 represents the beginning of WW1 and the demise of composite steel barrels

[Bruce Day]

For those who attend the Pheasant Fest in Schaumburg Ill next Feb, I will bring several Bernard barreled guns, including a smallbore. There are a handful of B grades with Bernard but mostly C’s. We have a Parker letter indicating Bernard barrels were more resistant to wear than the four blade Damascus otherwise offered for C grades.

[Kirk Potter]

A Bernard C was my dream Parker, and I had one for a while.. A Bernard CH with 28” barrels and Rondel engraving? Now that would be nice.

[Craig Larter]

My CH 10ga 30" on a #3 frame circa 1893.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

A Bernard Grade 3 lifter with 30" Barrels, The letter I have says Damascus barrels, but it has Bernard barrels plus the gold oval in the pistol grip normally found on higher grade guns, Ser# 34141

[Garry L Gordon]

I was able to check Bernard from off of my bucket list of guns-to-own-before-I-die. I have a few more to check off, so I'm not dead yet.

[Drew Hause]

Garry: please show us some more barrel. The rosettes seem much less prominent and that may be Bernard I.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/16082038/364019234.jpg

[Garry L Gordon]

Garry: please show us some more barrel. The rosettes seem much less prominent and that may be Bernard I.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/16082038/364019234.jpg

This is the best I have handy. The gun is from 1896.

[Drew Hause]

Thank Garry.

Does anyone have a Bernard C with other than a 'B' on the barrel flats?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19025099/352676091.jpg

Do the original order books specify Bernard, Bern 1, Bern 2??

[Wayne Owens]

Here are some Bernard barrels from 1892.

[Michael Moffa]

Ah the C grade, quite the enigma. My C collection has Damascus, Bernard, Titanic and Acme barrels. It may be the only grade where 4 types of barrels were used.

[Sara LeFever]

And here is a set of orphaned and abused Lefever barrels I recently bought.


Dean,
Can you share any details on those barrels (grade? gauge?). Piqued my interest.
Thanks,
Sara

[Dean Romig]

I also have a Bernard barreled Grade-4 T/A hammer gun and the letter says Damascus too.





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[Dean Romig]

For those who attend the Pheasant Fest in Schaumburg Ill next Feb, I will bring several Bernard barreled guns, including a smallbore. There are a handful of B grades with Bernard but mostly C’s. We have a Parker letter indicating Bernard barrels were more resistant to wear than the four blade Damascus otherwise offered for C grades.


Bruce, would that be a 26" 16 gauge with ivory beads?





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[Dean Romig]

Dean,
Can you share any details on those barrels (grade? gauge?). Piqued my interest.
Thanks,
Sara


Yes Sara,

Somebody apparently turned a beautiful A grade, side-cocker with Bernard barrels into a "cowboy action gun" by cutting the barrels down to 22".

The ignorance out there is apalling!!

Anyway, someone bought the gun and fitted fluid steel barrels to it and put these barrels up for sale on doublegunshop.com and I bought them... Why? you might ask.... I have a soft spot for any kind of orphan I guess.

Double or triple click on the pictures I posted where you can see the top rib engraved "Made Expressly For F. A. Elliott" I asked Bob Elliott if this F A Elliott was some relative of his and he said "Not to my knowledge."





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[Dean Romig]

Ah the C grade, quite the enigma. My C collection has Damascus, Bernard, Titanic and Acme barrels. It may be the only grade where 4 types of barrels were used.

Actually 5 that I know of. A few early C Lifter hammer guns were made with Laminated barrels.





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[Drew Hause]

Thanks to all who have replied, and to Bill for starting this thread.
After staring at the (few) labeled sample segments and illustrations available until cross-eyed :vconfused: , I believe Parker offered BOTH Bernard I and Bernard II barrels.

IF there are very distinct "roses" in the pattern, I think we can safely call it Bernard II

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19025099/334230060.jpg

The "rough forged tubes" were ordered matched, paired and wired together, and the pattern is difficult to read when "rough forged". Parker Bros. obviously knew what they were ordering, but the subtle differences in the batches supplied by the Belgian makers would not be unexpected.

I could still be wrong, but have changed these documents to reflect that opinion
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CGAF5f-J0-Foww572KvNYb0xSS1nBasWgHYvzD18i3c/edit
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17227428
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19025099

[Bill Holcombe]

I just find some of this stuff interesting and curious. Thanks to all the responsents and as always Drew thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

I have no idea what the cost difference labor wise was, but I surmise if Cs had gotten the engraving earlier that they got in the later years, or if all Cs had been roundel engraved, they would have sold a lot more Cs.

[Sara LeFever]

Somebody apparently turned a beautiful A grade, side-cocker with Bernard barrels into a "cowboy action gun" by cutting the barrels down to 22".

The ignorance out there is apalling!!

Anyway, someone bought the gun and fitted fluid steel barrels to it and put these barrels up for sale on doublegunshop.com and I bought them... Why? you might ask.... I have a soft spot for any kind of orphan I guess.



Dean,
Thanks for sharing! That's a darn shame someone cut those barrels! An A grade, side-cocker of all things! :banghead:
Glad you took them in and appreciate them! They are still impressive on their own.
Sara

[Brian Dudley]

Sara. Ask me about those barrels at Rock Mountain, i will tell you more.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Drew which type is this?

[Drew Hause]

The safe answer would be Bernard Gary ;)
I enhanced the image and am almost sure it's Bernard I

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/413953666.jpg

I added the image here as it is a good example to compare with "Rose Pattern" Bernard II
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17227428

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

One more this is a grade 4 32" Bernard, in great original shape, Gary

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

double and triple click for enlargements

[Drew Hause]

Spectacular Gary, and IMHO also Bernard I

BTW: I do not know if Ken Waite Jr. monitors the Forum, but a high resolution full size close up of pattern No. 15 (like No. 16 that Dean posted) in his Damascus Sample would be extremely helpful.

[Kirk Potter]

This is from a gunmaker out of Boston. (Not mine)

[Dean Romig]

BTW: I do not know if Ken Waite Jr. monitors the Forum, but a high resolution full size close up of pattern No. 15 (like No. 16 that Dean posted) in his Damascus Sample would be extremely helpful.

Ken Waite Jr. passed away a few years ago but I'm sure Ken Waite III monitors the forum and makes the occasional post. I suspect he may have his Dad's barrel sample set if Ken Jr. still owned it at the time of his passing.






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[Drew Hause]

Thanks Dean. I sent Ken a PM in the hope that he has the original high resolution digital images taken by Austin.

[Bill Holcombe]

Just adding to the discussion here, especially since Dr. Drew might respond to this query.

I have always considered and gotten the impression that Bernard Steel was considered a damascus steel. However, currently reading Ed Muderlack's Shooting Flying book and he refers to Bernard as being twist?

Which would be correct?

[Dean Romig]

I would consider Bernard Steel to be ‘pattern-welded steel’. Twist Steel wasn’t developed to repeat a ‘pattern’ so IMO Bernard Steel is closer to Damascus for the purpose of pattern welding.





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[Drew Hause]

It's...uh...complicated Bill

Leopold's company continued after his death, until about 1890. His company made twist, crolle damascus, and even fluid steel tubes.

About every Belgian tube maker produced some variant of "Bernard" tubes. The 1897-98 Ferdinand Drissen Price List shows Heuse-Lemoine Bernard listed SIX times: ‘ribbon-barrel’, Grades 1st - 3rd, and I & II.

This is Bernard Ribbon and probably a twist variant

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20450760/388864309.jpg

The Parker Bernard was mostly certainly damascus, by any definition

3 rod Parker Bernard refinished by Tom Flanigan clearly demonstrating 2 full width rods between 1/2 rods where the edges of the ribband were "jumped"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20450760/387206081.jpg

Long version here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMs-Mn60ei9QsRcHT5Urm_eHobzJnaDKZiP3FP0fXb0/edit

[Bill Holcombe]

It's...uh...complicated Bill

Leopold's company continued after his death, until about 1890. His company made twist, crolle damascus, and even fluid steel tubes.

About every Belgian tube maker produced some variant of "Bernard" tubes. The 1897-98 Ferdinand Drissen Price List shows Heuse-Lemoine Bernard listed SIX times: ‘ribbon-barrel’, Grades 1st - 3rd, and I & II.

This is Bernard Ribbon and probably a twist variant

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20450760/388864309.jpg

The Parker Bernard was mostly certainly damascus, by any definition

3 rod Parker Bernard refinished by Tom Flanigan clearly demonstrating 2 full width rods between 1/2 rods where the edges of the ribband were "jumped"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20450760/387206081.jpg

Long version here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fMs-Mn60ei9QsRcHT5Urm_eHobzJnaDKZiP3FP0fXb0/edit

Thanks, I guess I am going to have to put this down as the learned counsel from Illinois being mistaken in his book as he is discussing Parker barrels when he lumps Bernard along with English and stub into the "Twist" Category.

[Drew Hause]

To confuse things even more

"Twist" rods were NOT twisted before being wrapped around the mandrel and hammer forged

Crolle damascus rods WERE twisted (Crolle - Crull - Crullen - Curlen are Middle English words that appear in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales written c. 1386 and mean coiled or twisted) before being hammer welded into a ribband and then wrapped around the mandrel and hammer welded again

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xylidcizmxlYC66XHUDLpQFtU6gi9WyXSkTayKKWCXc/edit