What is your pigeon gun?

[Daryl Corona]

I did'nt want to hijack Frank's thread about pigeon guns but I've been thinking what gun that you own, Parker or other, would you take to a pigeon shoot if you were invited?

I shoot both Columbaire (hand thrown) and box birds. For the former I shoot a DHE Parker12, 28" LM/F, and for box birds VHE 12 32" F/F double trap. Both have safeties which are non-auto. 7 1/2" all the way.

How about you?

[Dean Romig]

I have only two 12 gauge Parkers that I shoot well enough to attempt at pigeon games.

One is a 1899 DH with 30" Titanic Steel barrels choked IM/IM (.033" & .034")

The other is a 1933 GH with 30" PSS barrels choked F/F (.042" & .043")

Both are DT, CPG, 2 3/4" DAH, 14 1/8" LOP, SpFE.

Though, truth be told, I have never shot live birds in competition.






.

[Mark Ray]

I have shot quite a bit of hand-thrown birds, and somewhat less box birds. For the most part, i shot a Superposed Lightning, w 32” Broadway Trap barrels, choked light modified bottom and light full top. Ejectors wouldnt work with the trap barrels. I have no idea what the stock dimensions were other than LOP which was a scosch under 15”, but also pretty high. It had a gorgeous :rotf: white line pad. The non automatic safety had a tiny hole drilled in the safety tab (by me), and a pretty little hex head set screw installed, fixing the safety in the off/under position. Guess the gun weighed just under 8 lbs. and was a tad barrel heavy.

[Eric Eis]

I just got mine at the beginning of this year as it was being restored by Brad Bachelder, it is a Greener Pigeon grade gun with 30" M/F Damascus barrels with a non auto safety. The gun when I got it was a mess, some idiot had cut the stock comb to put an adjustable comb (with polished chrome rods) on it, a Morgan full adjustable aluminum recoil pad with recoil reducer in the stock, a beavertail forend that looked like a two by four, and oh I almost forgot, he "Hot Blued" the barrels! :banghead: Two years later after Brad got it, it is one beautiful gun. I didn't get to shoot it at the Medford pigeon ring as we got rained out but did shoot it on the 5 stand and it preformed well. It's a neat gun that I was glad to be able to save.
I have never shot live pigeons, but it's something I would like to try someday.

[Bill Murphy]

My dedicated live pigeon gun for box birds is a PHE Trap with 30" full and full barrels, vent rib, and a crossover stock and splinter forend. My Columbaire gun is the same PHE with 26" IC and IM barrels. This is a Pennsylvania gun with the standard issue Miller trigger in the front position.

[Daryl Corona]

You are right Bill, Howard Miller was a fixture at many of the PA. shoots and many of the shooters wanted the reliable Miller trigger installed often non-selective.

[Frank Srebro]

Thanks Daryl for starting a separate thread focused on modern live bird shooting. I don't own a suitable 12-gauge Parker but I'll offer this up ….. to be competitive and not waste your money in a very expensive sport where still legal, I think that Parker needs to be dynamic but with enough weight to buffer heavy recoil, perhaps around 8 pounds. Also it should shoot a bit high maybe 60/40, and its owner must be OK with sustained shooting of traditional 1-1/4 ounce high velocity pigeon loads like the old AA Super Pigeon without having to worry about being kind to old dry wood, etc. Nowadays many shooters will be using even higher velocity "high brass" 1-1/4 ounce loads (1330 fps) in their guns. I'm talking here about getting invited to organized live box bird shoots with high cost birds, high stakes and the Calcuttas. And even if you have that Parker and think you're a good clays/hunting shot, get ready to get your clock cleaned when regular pigeon shooting gents like "Lxxx" show up from Portugal etc. :crying:

frank

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Interesting thread, Gary

[Rich Anderson]

I have a BHE 12 with 30 inch Damascus barrels, straight stock, splinter with a Monte Carlo stock (factory by the way) no safety. She shoots a tad high and is choked over .040 in both barrels. Another is a Fox CE also a straight grip 32 inch choked .037 in each tube. I just sold a DH straight grip no safety 32 inch gun with a flat rib at the Southern. It was choked .047 in each tube. I'm currently playing with a DHE straight grip with 34 inch barrels choked .047 each barrel. It's a dynamic gun considering the barrel length.

[Daryl Corona]

You may not have a suitable Parker for the task Frank but I'm sure you could dig an old Fox or some other maker out of the safe that would do the job. Which one would that be?

Back in the day there would be the sleeper Italian shooter who spoke very little English and shot a Perazzi with his detachable trigger group in a pouch on his belt.

My preference for ammo was 1 1/8oz.- 7 1/2 trap load in the right barrel and a Federal 3 1/4- 1 1/4- 7 1/2 in the left. Those 1330fps loads just recoiled too much for me to be able to stay into the gun for the second shot.

[Richard Flanders]

I guess if I got into that game today I'd shoot my 1883 twist-bbl 32" hammer gun that is choked F/F+. Far and away the best gun I have for killing birds that are "out there".

[George Stanton]

I think I'd shoot my Greener. 7 lbs 12 oz. 30 inch loose mod/imp mod. I'm pretty sure my great uncle used this gun for pigeons at the Philadelphia Gun Club where he was a member.

[Frank Srebro]

Daryl, I'm not planning to get back into box birds but if I were it would be my Model 21 Duck 30-incher that was ordered with a higher MC stock and independent safety. Weight 8 pounds and with factory Mod & Full chokes. And now that the Winchester AA Super Pigeon load is gone I'd be shooting the so-called "high brass" 1-1/4 ounce load, 8's in the right barrel and 7-1/2's left. Better yet handloaded 1-1/4 oz of 7's in the left barrel if that's currently legal per Flyers Association rules? JFI, one of the better shots I've seen at the rings used high brass Remington 9's in the under barrel of his Krieghoff with its factory Pigeon fixed choke barrel. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that loading had been discontinued since then. Bottom line, this isn’t an activity for guns and loads that aren’t up to the task.

[Dave Noreen]

Frank, the * marks the shell you need for that Model 21 Duck if you take it to the ring --

63527

Western Cartridge Co. offered that 3-inch, Lubaloy, Pigeon Load from July 1929 into 1949. Wonder if it was the load Spencer Olin used when he won the International Flyer Championship at Kansas City in 1933?

[Daryl Corona]

That's funny that you brought that up about 9's Frank. A few of the shooters swore by the Federal pigeon load of 3 1/4- 1 1/4 of 9's in their first barrel. You could get away with that in moderate temps. but once it got cold and blustery they did'nt perform as well on the birds. Their goal was to just knock the bird down in the ring with the first barrel then anchor it on the ground with the second barrel.

Also interesting to note Dave that the pigeon load in your chart was only offered in 7's and 7 1/2's.

[George Lang]

Mine would be my 12 gauge Ithaca grade 4 Minier, 30" IC/F Krupp steel barrels, Infallible single trigger, no safety, 7 1/2 pounds. This was the live pigeon gun of A.H. Worrest of Lancaster Pa., inventor of the Infallible Single Trigger. This is a great handling & shooting gun that was excellently cared for. I recently came across an Ithaca Flues grade 3 that is configured exactly the same except it has double triggers. It also is a great shooter.

[todd allen]

I've shot box birds about once a week for the first 20 or so years, the last 10 years I've tapered off quite a bit. Now it's a once in a while thing.
We have a portable 5 box layout, that we can run about anywhere. Also, my friend has a pigeon removal business, so birds aren't a problem.
My gun is a Perazzi SC-3, chokes are 25k bottom, 35 top. Load is 3 1/4 d 1 1/4 oz #8s
I have a Parker Live bird gun, a GHE (no safety) highly modified gun. Custom stock, Money Maker rib, Seitz bbl work, etc.
We shot a couple of weeks ago, btw.

[Dave Noreen]

Mine would be my 12 gauge Ithaca grade 4 Minier, 30" IC/F Krupp steel barrels, Infallible single trigger, no safety, 7 1/2 pounds. This was the live pigeon gun of A.H. Worrest of Lancaster Pa., inventor of the Infallible Single Trigger. This is a great handling & shooting gun that was excellently cared for. I recently came across an Ithaca Flues grade 3 that is configured exactly the same except it has double triggers. It also is a great shooter.

When one reads the lists of guns used by shooters at the Grand American Handicaps at live birds, 1893 to 1902, Ithaca guns are conspicuously absent. But, Ithaca Gun Co. did briefly, in 1915, advertise their guns as being available with Alfred Harvey Worrest's Infallible Single Trigger --

63528

Ithaca Gun Co. certainly beat all the others makers with their single barrel trap guns when it came to clay targets.

Ithaca finally made a splash in live bird circles in 1949, just as they got out of the double gun business --

63529

63530

[Rich Anderson]

One of the nicest pigeon guns I've ever seen was owned by a friend who recently sold it. It was a W.C. Scott premier grade with crystal cocking indicators and 30 inch Damascus barrels. I have never seen a nicer engraved gun and the rib was inscribed "custom built for Arthur DuBray"

[Drew Hause]

Rich: DuBray took delivery of the first Parker AAH Pigeon Gun in 1894; SN 79964 with Whitworth tubes

That was likely the gun he used at the 1895 GAH with 1 1/4 oz and 48 gr. "E.C." = almost 3 1/2 Dr. Eq.
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_03/SL2503016.pdf

Any idea as to the date of manufacture of the Scott?

[todd allen]

If I had the money, I would collect vintage pigeon guns. Had a chance to buy the Westley Richards owned by John Millius. I regret missing that one to this day.

[Rich Anderson]

Drew I don't know the date of the Scott but I'll ask the previous owner as he probably has the serial number written down. It is a very nice gun.

[Craig Larter]

AH Fox XE Straight Grip, non auto safety, 2 3/4" chamber, 1 3/8 x 2 x 14 to a silvers pd, chokes specified 75%/75%, single trigger medium pull. First picture before Silvers replaced.

[Drew Hause]

Prices for high grade guns in the 1906 William Read & Sons, Boston catalog

“Highest Quality” Westley Richards with single trigger - $595
W.W. Greener “Imperial” - $500
W&C Scott “Premier” - $375
W&C Scott “Imperial Premier” - price on application
Purdey - 89 pounds 5 shillings Sterling
Joseph Lang & Son “Highest Quality” sidelock ejector - 65 guineas
Parker Bros. AAHE - net price of $318.75
Lefever Optimus - $280
Remington Special - $750

$500 in 1905 would be about $13,000 today. Those guns would be great deals today.

[Mark Conrad]

If I had the money, I would collect vintage pigeon guns. Had a chance to buy the Westley Richards owned by John Millius. I regret missing that one to this day.

Todd, was it you that took a PGCA group from the Vegas gun show gun out in the desert for a friendly pigeon shoot. This was about 1999. Your friend had a pickup truck full of pigeons and the boxes to release the birds. You provided all the guns and we had a great time. That little junket has cost me $$$$ as I was hooked on pigeon shooting for at least 10 years.

I came home and contacted a local shooter who had been doing the Oxford, NC shoot for years. He got me and several friends an invitation and we shot Oxford until it was shut down by the state of N.C. I had heard that Oxford was the largest shoot in the country with 9 rings. I enjoyed those shoots and it was a sad day when it closed.

Side by sides were not the gun of choice at Oxford. You saw a few Model 21’s, I always shot a Parker but 99% of the shooters were using over and unders, mostly Italian.

[Mark Conrad]

Also, I think there is an article in Parker Pages about this shoot with pictures. Sometime in the 1999-2000 time frame.

[Rich Anderson]

A few years ago we gathered up 50-60 pigeons from the Amish built boxes and did an impromptu shoot at the local gun club. It was by no means a real pigeon shoot but it was fun and the birds proved challenging.

Someday I'd like to do a real shoot just once.

Drew the Scott I mentioned was from 1891 when dated by serial number.

[Bobby Cash]

https://i.imgur.com/NG0JZDq.jpg

1931, 32" .040/.040

[charlie cleveland]

mighty nice gun....charlie

[todd allen]

Todd, was it you that took a PGCA group from the Vegas gun show gun out in the desert for a friendly pigeon shoot. This was about 1999. Your friend had a pickup truck full of pigeons and the boxes to release the birds. You provided all the guns and we had a great time. That little junket has cost me $$$$ as I was hooked on pigeon shooting for at least 10 years.

I came home and contacted a local shooter who had been doing the Oxford, NC shoot for years. He got me and several friends an invitation and we shot Oxford until it was shut down by the state of N.C. I had heard that Oxford was the largest shoot in the country with 9 rings. I enjoyed those shoots and it was a sad day when it closed.

Side by sides were not the gun of choice at Oxford. You saw a few Model 21’s, I always shot a Parker but 99% of the shooters were using over and unders, mostly Italian.

That would be me. I still have the Leader Board, and a bunch of pictures somewhere.

[todd allen]

Also, I think there is an article in Parker Pages about this shoot with pictures. Sometime in the 1999-2000 time frame.

Yes, that was Charlie Herzog that wrote it up.

[Frank Srebro]

Daryl asked what you might bring to a modern day organized live bird shoot if you were to be invited and so inclined. Of course you could field any shotgun capable of the required two shots per bird, and use anything from low pressure/low velocity loads to the more effective "high brass" 1-1/4 ouncers at 1330 speed - assuming your gun could handle a steady diet of the latter and you were comfortable with old dry wood etc without checking the gun after every two shot string for cracks or chunks split out of its head. One additional consideration at modern organized box bird races at least in one legal state is that the minimum rise (shooting pad) is at 30 yards and it goes back to 35 yards. Compare that with the 1901 Live Bird GAH where the handicap rise started at 25 and went to 33. For example Ansley Fox was shooting his Winchester 1897 at 30 yards rise and the other 23 way straights were at varying distances within that range. Griffith was at 28 with his Parker.

Letsee, you're gonna pay maybe 9-10 bucks per bird and probably drop about $350-400. for the day, assuming you don't get heavy into incremental races or the side betting. Then there's the cost of travel, lodging, etc. Dance with the gal you brung and have at it. :whistle:

Oops I forgot to include the cost of practice birds. :)

[Rich Anderson]

.

Letsee, you're gonna pay maybe 9-10 bucks per bird and probably drop about $350-400. for the day, assuming you don't get heavy into incremental races or the side betting. Then there's the cost of travel, lodging, etc. Dance with the gal you brung and have at it. :whistle:

A day quail hunting at Morrison Pines is a grand with everything included and I wouldn't give it up for anything. A weekend of live bird shooting might run about the same and I wouldn't pass on the opportunity. I'd take the BHE 1oz 8's in the right barrel and 7 1/2 in the left and enjoy the step back in time.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

This will make for a good article in the Parker Pages, Fall edition, I will try to do a little write up on what I believe is a true pigeon gun, I would like to see a true pigeon shoot, although It would be useless for me to enter I could not hit the broad side of a barn, but it would be interesting to watch and see the type of guns used. It seems as these shooters ordered their guns they were ordered with very special dimensions to fit them, and as they got later in years and they ordered another gun the specification of the gun changed a little, anyone noticed this? Gary

[Tom Hawkins]

I acquired this gun over thirty years ago cheap because it had no safety and It would break open when fired. Years later I found out why and fixed it. Oscar Gaddy informed me about the live bird option and that I should not mess with it as I was considering adding a safety. This live bird was made in 1901. It has 32" barrels choked Improved modified in both tubes. Measurements are LOP 13.75 over Hawkins pad, DAC 1.5, DAH 2. It has a repair code of LK3. It received new barrels as it now has ejectors that are Parker for sure with the overload proved stamp. There is a small 3 on the back of the barrel flats close to the ejector. I had never seen a number there so I checked the chambers and they are 3". I would like to know if anyone else has encountered the small 3. It will really smoke clays.