Circa 1900-05 Live Bird gun

[Frank Srebro]

I have my thoughts on this but ask others; what specs would generally be agreed to, that connote a likely specialized 12-gauge Live Bird SxS circa 1900-05 when inanimate targets (clays) were in their infancy? So often we see guns advertised as Live Bird guns because that descriptor seems to have a desirable aura and it might increase interest in the gun.

Not necessarily a Parker ….. but what would be typical for such a Live Bird gun relative to stock configuration (grip style, drops, length), length of barrels, chokes, gun weight, sight(s), buttplate/pad/leather faced pad, etc?

Your comments would be appreciated.

frank

[Rick Losey]

is 1895 too early

http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_04/SL2604014.pdf


Dr Williamson's new gun -

3/4 of the way down the second column

sadly no stock dimensions given

[Jeff Kuss]

My che roundel shipped 1903. It has 32" titanic barrels, straight grip,double trigger. LOP is 14",DAC is 1 3/8, DAH is 2" Seven pounds ten ounces. It does not have a safety. special instructions are 2" pitch, 2 3/4 chambers, cast off at heel 3/16" cast off at toe 1/4", target 280/280.

[Bill Murphy]

Frank, there are several specific pigeon gun features Parker provided, but all of the features are rarely seen on the same gun. These features go beyond the "12 gauge, 30" or 32" barrels" of guns not quite up to full pigeon gun standards. The scarce and specific pigeon gun features are no safety, flat rib, no extension rib, and higher than normal comb and heel dimensions, documented as original by PGCA letter. If a PGCA letter is available for provenance of originality, another feature would be longer than 2 5/8" chambers in the pre-magnum era. I have only seen these features bundled in a couple of guns, one being the "Gold Hearts Gun", which doesn't include the flat rib. A full optioned pigeon gun with all of these features is a very hard gun to find. If my experience is an indicator, the "no extension rib" option seems to be exclusively a pigeon shooter's request.

[Dave Noreen]

Lt. Noel E. Money ordered his $400 Whitworth gun on Feb. 9, 1895. He specified 30-inch barrels, a slender grip, no safety, 2 3/4 inch chambers, scroll and flowers, no birds, trigger pulls 3 and 4.

[Daryl Corona]

Re: Article posted by Rick. I'd love to know what the configuration was of the 20ga. shot by DuBray where he managed to split the top purse in a pigeon shoot.

To answer your query about live bird gun configurations Frank unfortunately it is a widely misused term today. I think Bill has hit on the high points of what makes a pigeon gun but to me having a fairly straight stock with a raised flat rib or vent rib so as to pattern 70/30 would be the ticket. Couple that with a loose mod/very full choke set-up. I guess the only way to find out if it was a pigeon gun would be to trace the ownership back to a known pigeon shooter of the era in question. As you well know the lack of a safety is the characteristic which brings out the claim "live bird gun" at first description.

[Ed Blake]

Bill and Daryl have summed it up nicely, but I’ll add one more thing. I have #103439 from 1901. It’s an odd duck and may not be a pigeon gun but I think it was used in the pigeon ring because it was ordered by a H.E. Anderson of Lancaster, PA. In my research I found Mr Anderson mentioned as a organizer and promoter of pigeon/trap shoots in Md/Pa. Chuck’s letter indicates it was patterned to shoot extra close with 48 grs of Schultz powder under 11/4 oz of #7 shot. It was ordered with a wide flat rib with 28” barrels on a #3 frame and Lyman ivory twin beads. It is a DH and has a safety. The stock is 14”x 13/4” x 21/4” but this is not specified in the records. The gun has an unusual configuration and it could have been intended as a waterfowler, but I think it was made for pigeons.

[John Davis]

Can't seem to copy and paste this article so the columns line up but perhaps you can extract the info. This gives you an idea of what the trap shooters and pigeon poppers preferred at the turn of the last century.

November 23, 1901, The Sportsmen’s Review, in an article written by Gaucho entitled, “A Few Remarks on Some Celebrated Guns,” du Bray lists some prominent shooters and the type of guns they used. Those who made the Parker their choice of weapon were as follows:

Name, Make, Barrel Length, Weight, DAC, DAH, Stock Length, Grip
W. E. Beesom Parker 32" 7' 15" 1 7/16 2 1/4 14 ½ St.
W. L. Boyd Parker 32" 7' 14" 1 ½ 2 1/8 14 1/8 St.
C. W. Budd Parker 30" 7' 15" 1 ½ 2 14 P.
W. H. Colquitt Parker 30" 7' 12" 1 1/4 2 1/4 14 3/4 St.
V. C. Dagan Parker 30" 8' 1 3/8 3 14 ½ P.
O. R. Dickey Parker 30" 7' 14" 1 5/8 2 1/4 14 St.
E. E. Ellis Parker 32" 8' 1 5/8 2 5/8 14 ½ P.
F. C. Etheridge Parker 30" 7' 6" 2 1/8 3 1/8 14 ½ P.
A. H. Frank Parker 30" 7' 12" 1 1/8 2 3/8 14 St.
Fred Gilbert Parker 30" 7' 14" 1 3/8 2 14 1/4 P.
W. A. Hammond Parker 32" 7' 15" 1 5/8 2 3/8 14 3/4 St.
Jno. W. Harrison Parker 28" 6' 1 ½ 2 ½ 14 P.
Sam Hutchings Parker 32" 7' 14" 1 ½ 2 ½ 14 ½ St.
J. F. Jordan Parker 26" 5 3/4 2 3 14 St.
H. J. Lyons Parker 30" 7' 10" 1 1/4 1 7/8 14 1/8 St.
Geo. S. McAlpin Parker 7' 6" 1 1/4 1 3/4 14 ½ St.
J. R. Malone Parker 30" 7' 15" 1 ½ 2 15 St.
R. R. Merrill Parker 32" 7' 14" 1 5/8 2 5/8 14 5/8 ½ P.
F. S. Parmelee Parker 32" 7' 12" 1 ½ 2 14 ½ P.
C. M. Powers Parker 32" 7' 15" 1 1/8 2 1/4 14 3/8 St.
W. C. Rawson Parker 32" 7' 15" 1 3/8 2 14 1/8 St.
R. S. Rhoads Parker 30" 7' 15" 1 1/8 2 1/8 14 ½ P.
C. E. Robbins Parker 32" 7' 11" 1 ½ 2 ½ 14 1/4 P.
Frank Simpson Parker 32" 7' 14" 1 ½ 2 3/8 14 3/8 St.
Franklin Stearns Parker 32" 7' 15" 1 ½ 2 ½ 15 ½ P.
E. H. Tripp Parker 30" 8' 1 ½ 2 5/8 14 ½ St.
S. A. Tucker Parker 30" 7' 14" 1 ½ 2 14 St.
D. A. Upson Parker 26" 7' 1 1/4 2 14 1/4 ½ P.
R. Van Gilder Parker 27" 6" 2' 1 5/8 3 1/8 14 1/4 St.
Wm. Wagner Parker 30" 7" 10' 1 1/4 2 1/4 14 St.
Dr. F. C. Wilson Parker 32" 7" 10' 1 ½ 2 1/4 15 St.
Leroy Woodward Parker 30" 7" 13' 1 3/8 2 14 1/4 P.

[Dean Romig]

The only 'common denominator' I have ever seen in describing a "live bird gun" is the absence of a safety. As was said, I believe by Darryl Corona, it is a widely misused term today.

Possibly a better descriptor would be 'competition gun'.




.

[John Davis]

If you run through the list of shooters it seems that the preferred trap/pigeon gun had 30 to 32 inch barrels, weight just under 8 pounds (probably a weight limit rule), DAC of 1 1/2 inches or less, DAH of 2 1/2 inches or less. Straight or pistol grip seems to be a toss up. As was mentioned above, if you want to know whether a gun was used for trap or live pigeon shooting you really need to know who owned it.

[John Davis]

Also, by 1900 clays had pretty much replaced live pigeons.

[John Davis]

That's not to say that they weren't still shooting live birds in the early 1900's but inanimate targets were becoming the preferred target. A shortage of live birds and a changing public opinion had begun to change the tide. The last Grand American Handicap at Live Birds was held in 1902. The first Grand American Handicap at Targets was held in 1900.

April 11, 1891, American Field: “An Ornithological Discovery. - Boston, Mass. - Editor American Field:- The following from the Portland Daily Press in reference to the new law in Maine for the prevention of pigeon shooting, will prove, I am sure, of great interest to your scientific readers, and possibly to trap shooters. A new species does not turn up every day in the week, and we must make the most of it when we get the chance.
‘We presume the intention of the framers of the law against pigeon shooting was not merely to put a stop to the shooting of pigeons, but also to prevent trap shooting of every kind in which live birds are used. Unfortunately, however, they specified pigeons and pigeons only, so that any other kind of bird may be used without violating the letter of the law. In a “shoot” which took place recently in this vicinity Peoria blackbirds were substituted for pigeons, and though the performance was just as barbarous a one as it would have been had pigeons been used, and just as contrary to good moral, still the law as it stands does not touch it. The law should be amended so as to cover all trap shooting in which live birds are used, no matter what their species.’
While some of your readers may possibly subscribe to our Portland brother’s ethics, they will hardly venture to do as much for his ornithology. This is a sad world, but in spite of the cruel treatment which Quiscalus versicolor Peoria experienced in Maine, it looks as though he had come to stay. Thos. Gradgrind.”

[Bill Murphy]

Cruelty to "Peoria Blackbirds" is a sad state. Today I'm going to exhibit cruelty to White Flyers at our annual father's day shoot.

[Frank Srebro]

Here's a cut taken from the American Field newspaper of the 22 gents who shot straight (25/25) to qualify for the miss-and-out shootoff at the 1901 Live Bird GAH. Sorry the size/quality of this AF pic copy isn't the best when you expand it. Picture was taken on April 13, 1901, and was no doubt supplied by Interstate to the sporting journals. As it turned out the next day, the Live Bird GAH winner was Griffith who fielded a Parker. 2nd place Morrison with a Winchester. 3rd and 4th places were also taken by Parkers, Bennett and Barto respectively.

Some time ago I bought an original silver albumen picture of this scene with the photographer's logo and names of the shooters by row and place inscribed on its matting. It was spotted in a gallery near Philly and I recognized the grouping and ran to get it the next day. It's probably the only original picture of the straights extant and I keep it in a dark/humidity controlled vault. But with that said I often take it to SxS events in the east and if anyone wants to see the original, let me know where and when and I'll let you know if I plan to be there. The clarity of this original picture is absolutely amazing due to that silver albumen photo process and when digitized I can see the weave in Ansley's sweater and the detail of the pigeon pin on his cool hat (front row, 4th from left). Also that the gent standing behind and to the right of him is wearing pinstriped pants. In case someone wonders, I won't post copies of this original picture or of the individual shooters/places as it would be so easy for gents to copy, and next I know I'll see them for sale on E Bay etc. :nono:

This may the only original picture of Ansley H Fox that's been found. Some day I'll figure out what to do to keep it honest for posterity. Just about the end of an era with the "Who's who" of Live Bird champs in 1901.

[Ed Blake]

Is there a way to sell prints?

[Frank Srebro]

Ed, I've been trying to figure out a way to do that without making it easy for others to duplicate once they get a super good copy of all 22 shooters or of one of them in particular. Actually I have a 8 x 10 glossy of Ansley in my game room. Someone suggested I "colorize it" which can be done with special software but I haven't investigated that as yet. A few other ideas were put forth on the Fox site a while back and any ideas here would be appreciated. I ran this past my wife's IP attorney and he has to be ok with a copy concept but so far we haven't come up with a reasonably secure way to do that.

[Drew Hause]

Fred Gilbert (1865-1928) was one of the world’s best known shooters from 1895-1915 and used a L.C. Smith to win the DuPont World’s Pigeon Shooting Championship in 1895 and the “E.C.” Inanimate Target Championship Cup in 1896. The “Fred Gilbert Specifications” were for a drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels.
Gilbert used his Smith in the 1899 GAH then switched to a Parker. Order Book No. 41 records BH SN 83855 placed into stock in January, 1896 consigned to Fred Gilbert. The stock book lists a D5 hammerless, 0 extras, straight stock,12 gauge, 30” barrels, Gun count No. 482, Damascus barrels.
Toward the end of 1901, Gilbert received his new Parker DH SN 103649; no dolls head, no ejectors, 32” barrels, ordered by Russell Klein, Gilbert’s brother-in-law and also from Spirit Lake
https://books.google.com/books?id=rkgcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1012&lpg
The gun was returned to Parker Brothers in 1903 to be refurbished.

Hunter Arms records show the following guns shipped to Harvey McMurchy (courtesy of Dr. Jim Stubbendieck):
Serial No. 695: No. A1 12 gauge 32-inch; 14” LOP - 1 3/4” DAC - 3” DAH; 7 lb 12 oz; October 3, 1891
Serial No. 4524: Pigeon E, Non-selective trigger; 12 gauge 32-inch; 14 1/4” - 2” - 3 1/4”, 7 lb 14 oz; September 8, 1900

[Drew Hause]

The Interstate Association organized the first Grand American Handicap at Live Birds, under Revised Hurlingham rules, for spring 1893. Twenty-one shooters paid $25 to compete.
In 1894, first place was awarded $500 and guns were limited to 12 gauge and 8 pounds.

The 1898 “Trap Shooting Rules” by the American Shooting Association (courtesy of Randy Davis) listed the following rules:
Charge of powder was unlimited
Shot was limited to 1 1/4 oz. by “Dixon’s measure”
Weight limit (there was no weight limit in 1890 or 1893) and ‘naked’ was not stated:
10g - 9 lbs. 4 oz.
12g - 8 lbs. 4 oz.
16g - 7 lbs. 12 oz.
20g - 7 lbs. 8 oz.

Sporting Life
John L. Lequin. secretary of the Interstate Association, writes us under date of Feb. 25, 1898 as follows:
“We have received inquiries from most all directions recently from a number of shooters who are probably desirous of entering the Grand American Handicap next month, concerning the weight of guns, and whether the handhold and recoil pad will be counted as a part of the gun when weighed. The subject has been placed before the Tournament Committee of the association, which committee has decided that the guns will be weighed naked.” ("Naked" was without a "boot" or barrel guard)

The Baker Gun Quarterly, Volume 5, No. 3, May 1900 had an article on the weight of Trap/Pigeon guns used by Capt. A.W. Money (8 pounds - Money used a Greener, Smith, and Parker), C.W. Budd (7 pounds 14 ounce Parker), H.D. Bates (winner of the 1900 GAH at Live Birds; 7 pounds 13 ounce Parker), R.O. Heikes (7 pounds 15 ounce Parker but after the GAH at Live Birds he went back to his Remington hammerless and won the 1900 [1st] GAH at Targets), J.S. Fanning (7 pounds 15 ounce Smith), W.R. Crosby (7 pounds 12 ounce Baker), and Col. A.G. Courtney (7 pounds 14 ounce Remington CEO).

[Drew Hause]

L.C. Smith Pigeon Gun

1894 Chas. Godfrey, N.Y. courtesy of Dave Noreen; illustrated with safety

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17127707/394375862.jpg

1910 Norvell-Shapleigh, St. Louis; again with safety. At that point Hunter Arms described the gun as "Pigeon Gun", not "Pigeon Grade"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17127707/411286964.jpg

which is not to say "No Safety" could not be ordered. The two piece tang was discontinued about 1910, but found on guns as late as 1915

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/16694621/376167385.jpg

[Drew Hause]

1904 ad for the C.E.O. Trap Gun. The 1904 Touring UMC Squad, included T. A. Marshall, Captain; R. O. Heikes, C. W. Budd, J. L. Head. T. E Hubby, W. H. Heer, J. T. Anthony, F. C. Riehl and E. D. Fulford; assisted by Frank Butler, shot in 65 Southern Cities. The first five broke the five-man squad world's record by a score of 488X500 at Palestine, Texas.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/392579407.jpg

March 2, 1907 "American Field" courtesy of David Noreen. The Remington C.E.O. and F.E. were both referred to a "Trap Gun"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/412728320.jpg

[Drew Hause]

THIS is a Pigeon Gun :cool: I do not know the dimensions
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/anna-rieker-and-her-smith-monogram.217816/

Anna Rieker's Monogram Pigeon gun delivered in March, 1904, with which she won the DuPont Cup in 1905.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17127707/327794189.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17127707/327794182.jpg

"Sporting Life" June 11, 1910.
Fred Coleman and Miss Rieker Shoot a Sensational Live Bird Match. Pottsville, Pa., May 30
What is believed to be two world's records at live-bird shooting were made here today, when Fred Coleman, of Pottsville, the State champion at live birds, killed 100 straight from a 33 yards' rise, defeating Miss Anna M. Rieker, of Lancaster, who shot from a 26 yards' rise and finished with a score of 93 out of 100. Three of her birds dropped dead out of bounds. Both shot in wonderful form. Coleman killed every bird clean, a feat never performed before at 33 yards' rise. Miss Rieker is believed to be he first woman to shoot a match at 100 live birds. She killed her last 33 birds straight and established a world's record for a woman.

[Chris Travinski]

Another feature I have seen documented on live bird, trap guns or competition guns (Parkers) in general is thick comb. I kind of like the look and function of a thick comb, if you're paying attention they are pretty easy to spot. Also, most seem to ship with recoil pads.

I once had a CHE sold by Chuck Bruner, it belonged to a GAC at Live Birds champion and was well documented. It had the usual specs. 32", FxF, straight stock with high dimensions, no safety and a slivers pad. At the time he had a sibling to it also originally owned by the same gent that was a CHE 16 ga., 30", high flat rib, FxF, with a straight stock with high dimensions, no safety and silvers pad. Both very cool guns.

[todd allen]

The only 'common denominator' I have ever seen in describing a "live bird gun" is the absence of a safety. As was said, I believe by Darryl Corona, it is a widely misused term today.

Possibly a better descriptor would be 'competition gun'.

.

If you can win a pigeon shoot with it, it's a pigeon gun.

[Dean Romig]

And if you can kill a duck with it, it's a duck gun.

And if you can kill a pheasant with it, it's a pheasant gun.

And if you can kill a goose with it, it's a goose gun.

I thought we were talking about "live bird guns"?

My point was that the label "live bird gun" is a misnomer in so many cases. A 'pigeon gun' or a 'trap gun' or an 'inanimate target gun' or a 'clays gun' in those cases when describing a particular gun would be far better descriptions of what the gun was intended for.

I've seen twenty-six inch 20 gauge and 16 gauge guns described as "live bird guns" for the simple reason that they were ordered without a safety.

I know - it's a matter of semantics and it becomes like splitting hairs, but "live bird gun" is so often a misnomer.





.

[Frank Srebro]

Well written Dean. You can take deer with a 22 Short or geese with a 410 or shoot live birds with any shotgun capable of 2 quick shots, but they're hardly optimal. The point here is that serious Live Bird shooters generally had dedicated guns ordered to their fit and configured for the sport. Besides Trap/clay guns, absence of a safety can be one of their criteria but there were upland hunters and waterfowlers who liked safetyless guns and those who do period readings will come across those references. There are also those who've never been invited to a live bird shoot to try it or even see how it's actually done but they can be so vocal in naming this or that SxS a "Live Bird gun".

Just for perspective here's a shot of a pigeon ring at a friend’s club, one of three, showing the handicap pads and the boundary fence if you expand the pic. Legal but "undisclosed location" and picture taken and used with permission.

[todd allen]

Just for some perspective, I have pictures of some of the founding members of the PGCA at a pigeon shoot that I organized. (including a picture of Oscar Gaddy shooting my Underlifter)
The location was/is legal, but just to be safe will be listed as Northern Mexico.

[todd allen]

Nice ring, Frank

[Drew Hause]

What makes a Live Bird gun? Whatever gun Rolla Heikes happened to be using this week ;)

Heikes was the first industry representatives in 1885, with the Lefever Gun Co. In 1895-96, Heikes participated in 67 tournaments (despite having malaria in the summer of 1895) and was high gun in 60 using a Winchester 1893 slide-action. He defeated Fred Gilbert in 1896 at the 2nd "E.C." Cup "Champion Inanimate Target Shot of the World" in New York and was 4th in the GAH at Live Birds. Prior to using the Winchester, he shot a L.C. Smith. He defeated Charles Grimm on Dec. 6 1897 for the Cast Iron Medal using a Winchester 1897.
He defeated Fred Gilbert for the "E.C." Cup at Chicago, August 13, 1898 with a score of 140 to 137 out of 150 targets, then successfully defended the "Cast Iron Medal" against Fred Gilbert at Eau Claire, Wis., in August and W.R. Elliston in Nashville in October.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24189170/403965363.jpg

In 1899 he used a Remington Hammerless Double to defeat E.D. Fulford for the "E.C." Cup in January and won the Sportsmen's Association Championship Trophy in the trapshooting tournament held on the roof of the Madison Square Garden in March. He used a Parker at the 1900 GAH at Live Birds, then went back to his Remington to win the first Grand American at Clay Targets held at Interstate Park in New York City June 12-15, 1900. In November 1900, he was using a new single trigger Remington hammerless double.
He was part of the victorious American team in the June 1901 Anglo-American Clay Bird Match using a Parker. He started 1902 shooting the Remington single trigger hammerless, then used a L.C. Smith at the Ohio State shoot and to take 3rd in the last GAH at Live Birds in Kansas City.
He came back from Typhoid Fever in 1904 to take HOA at the Dominion of Canada Exhibition Shoot in Winnipeg again shooting a Remington. In 1905 he began shooting a Remington Autoloading Shotgun and was 2nd High Professional at the 1906 GAH.

[Drew Hause]

Guns used at the 1899 Grand American Handicap at Live Birds
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305013.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305014.pdf
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305016.pdf
Guns: Parker- 78, Smith- 56, Greener- 31, Francotte- 24, Winchester- 12, Remington- 11, Cashmore- 10, Lefever- 6, Purdey- 5, Scott- 6, Colt- 4, Daly- 3, Stannard- 3, Boss- 2, Richards- 2, Baker- 2, Forehand, Syracuse, Clabrough, Renette, Abbey, Spencer & Webley- 1 each.
Smith: C.M. Grimm, Charles Young, W.B. Leffingwell, Fred Gilbert (Gilbert switched to a Parker after the 1899 GAH), F.P. Stannard, J.J. Sumpter, J.S. Fanning, Fred Quimby, J.J. Hallowell (U.M.C. Co.), “Wanda” and Milt Lindsley, Wanda Shattuck, Fen Cooper, H.C. Hershey (Hazard Powder Co.)
Parker: Neaf Apgar, John Parker (Peters Cartridge Co.), Wilbur F. Parker, A.W. duBray, H.D. Kirkover, H.E. Buckwalter, L.W. Stoddard, Harold Money, C.W. Budd, J.D. Gay, George Loomis, O.R. Dickey, Ed Bingham, R. Merrill, C.M. Powers, Howard Ridge (Laflin & Rand Powder Co.)
“E.A. Sturdevant shot a 16-gauge Parker at 26 yards, with 2 3/4 drams Du Pont, and 1 ounce No. 8 and 7 shot. He killed 23, which was a very nice performance.”
Winchester Repeater: J.A.R. & Dave Elliott, Ed Banks (“E.C.” and “Schultze” Powder Co.), Ralph Trimble (WRAC)
Cashmore: T.A. Marshall, Dr. W.F. Carver
Francotte: Fred Coleman, Paul North (Cleveland Target Co.), J., C., & O. Von Lengerke
Remington: R.O. Heikes, Col. A.G. Courtney, Frank Parmelee, B. Le Roy (Remington, DuPont and U.M.C.) E.D. Fulford, George Roll, Captain J.A.H. Dressel (U.M.C. and president of the Interstate Association)
Greener: Capt. A.W. Money
Baker: “William Crosby, of the Baker Gun Company, made a good showing with his $30 Baker hammerless, killing 24 out of 25 in the big event, and 15 straight in the Nitro handicap. ‘Billy’ made last year’s record with 98 straight kills.”

1899 (and 1897) GAH Winner Thomas Marshall in Leslie's Weekly Illustrated, N.Y., May 4, 1899. Marshall, C.M. Grimm, J.G. Knowlton, J.A. Jackson, S. Hoffman and Geo. Roll (possibly standing behind Marshall and using a Remington Hammerless) all killed 25 birds. Marshall won with 33 birds in the shoot-off after Grimm missed his 32 bird.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/407098862.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Remington "Pigeon Guns"; CE,DE,EE; 1902, courtesy of David Noreen

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17710152/410378457.jpg

[Drew Hause]

A $75 Baker "Paragon Pigeon Gun" ($100 with AE) was offered in 1897 with 30" steel barrels, straight grip, and engraved pigeons. The Baker Krupp was introduced in 1904 and became the N Grade in 1906.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17434920/411728866.jpg

[Drew Hause]

October 19, 1895 Sporting Life
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_04/SL2604014.pdf
Dr. Williamson, of Milwaukee, Wis., has just purchased a new gun of more than ordinary proportions. The Doctor was quite taken with Carver's Cashmore gun, having long barrels and shooting a big load in a 3 1/4 inch shell; but desiring to give the American gunmakers a chance he ordered a gun from the Lefever Arms Company, of Syracuse, N. Y. but at the same time rather doubted their ability to make such a weapon as he desired. However, the gun was furnished and Dr. Williamson killed 79 out of 80 live birds on one trial, and 74 out of 75 targets, part being doubles.
The gun is a Lefever, 12-gauge, weighing 8 1/4 pounds, 32-inch barrels, and chambered for a 3 1/4 inch shell, and guaranteed to stand 4 1/2 Drams of “E.C.” powder, which is the amount of powder which he uses.
(1 1/4 oz. with 3 3/4 Dram “Schultze” was about 14,000 psi. “Schultze” pressures were somewhat lower than “E.C.”)

Another criteria might be a longer than standard chamber

At the 1895 Grand Smokeless Championship Handicap Live-bird Tournament, Capt. John L. Brewer used a Greener. His shells were the U.M.C. Trap, 3 1/4 inches long, 4 Drams of DuPont (Bulk) powder by measure; one trap wad, two pink felts, 1/4 inch 11-gauge wad and one ordinary 12-gauge pink edge wad over the powder and 1 1/4 ounces of No. 7 chilled shot; the shell had a very hard square crimp.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/410284948.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Ask Destry what he was using ;)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/413726945.jpg

[todd allen]

Anyone interested in the early days of vintage pigeon shooting, should track down the book "Pigeon Shooting" by Blue Rock. (Captain Money)

[David Dwyer]

OK, I have a CHE 30" , factory no safety, full beavertail, high stocked PG, choked .048 & .048, factory pad. Ser #220183. I have always felt this is a LBG. What is it? There are no records.
David

[Drew Hause]

Here you go Todd :)

William Bruce Leffingwell, The Art of Wing Shooting: A Practical Treatise on the Use of the Shotgun, 1895
http://books.google.com/books?id=e34EmE3tkfkC
The king of all pigeon shooters is “Capt. Jack” (John L.) Brewer of Philadelphia.
Mr. Brewer said to the author:
“The secret of pigeon shooting is to kill the birds quickly, they must not be permitted to become hard birds; the quicker the first barrel is fired the better, and the second must follow before the bird is forty yards from the shooter. I can't say that I admire these long kills, because the fact that a man makes a long kill shows that he was slow in the use of the first or second barrel, and that won't do in pigeon shooting.”
“A pigeon gun should be a modified choke — both barrels. The first barrel being bored a little closer than a cylinder, and the second a little more open than a full choke. Bored in that manner, the first barrel will kill the bird within from thirty-five to thirty-seven yards, and the second up to forty yards, and the pigeon ought not be permitted to get beyond that distance when the second barrel is fired. A man must take every legitimate advantage in pigeon shooting. A modified choke gives that advantage, and when a man uses a full choke he handicaps himself.”
“A gun for pigeon shooting should weigh from 7 1/2 to anywhere under 8 pounds. It should be heavy at the breech, with a long and very straight stock, having a drop from 2 to 2 1/2 inches at the butt. These straight stocks are desirable, because they cause one to shoot high, something which is essential, as there is a tendency to undershoot, and nearly every pigeon is missed by shooting under or behind. A pigeon gun should be bored to shoot a trifle high. Birds going from the trap are almost invariably rising, and as there is an almost uncontrollable tendency to aim at a straight-away bird, one should hold a trifle over.”

Albert William Money, Arthur Corbin Gould, Pigeon Shooting: With instructions for beginners and suggestions for those who participate in the sport of pigeon shooting, 1896
http://books.google.com/books?id=qkEEAAAAYAAJ
In the course of the last twenty-five years, I have met and known intimately most of the best known trap shots. I am one who believes that the longer I live the more I can learn, and that other people's opinions are always worth considering, and perhaps adopting, if, on careful consideration they are found to be based on facts and good judgment.
Stand with the left foot thrown forward, the body upright, and the feet slightly apart; in fact, very much in the attitude of a boxer. The higher the gun is held, the quicker you will get your aim on the bird; therefore, hold it as nearly up to the shoulder as you can, the left hand well extended, but not to its full length, or you will be hampered in shooting a bird coming straight toward you. Take care that there is nothing stiff or rigid about your body, arms, legs or head; grasp the gun very firmly with both hands.
I would lay great stress on the necessity of concentrating your whole thought and attention on the shot. I have for many years past, known all the best pigeon shots, both amateur and professional, who have made their mark on either side of the water, and I have seen the very best of them miss comparatively easy birds, because their thought for the moment was on something else; some one, perhaps, having made a remark as they went to the score and so called off their attention from what they were doing.
Next to this I would advise keeping a cool and equable temperament. Never allow yourself to be upset or put out by anything that may occur. If a miss comes, take it philosophically; we all miss at times. Don't lose your temper and blame your gun, or shells, or anything but your own want of holding straight. Note in what direction the bird was flying when you missed it, and what trap it came out of, so as to discover your weak point as soon as possible, and take measures to correct it. If you keep on missing, and cannot account for it, get someone who is an old shot to stand directly behind you when you shoot, and tell you where you shoot. Strange as it may seem, he can see the direction of your gun at moment of firing better than you can. Do not, however, believe what everyone tells you in that respect. Many men who are not standing in a proper position to see, or are not carefully noting the direction of your gun and the bird at the moment, will say, “You shot over or under, behind or in front of that bird.” They are false prophets, and sometimes are wolves in sheep's clothing.
The question of cast-off in the stock of a gun is a most important one. When a shooter throws his gun quickly to his shoulder, pointing it at some near object, and finds, on closing his left eye and glancing with the right along the rib, that he is looking along the center, he may consider that he has a gun with the right amount of cast-off; that is to say, the heel of the stock has a slight bend away from the body. Few guns are made with a perfectly straight stock. I have, however, advocated them for many years, and I see that gun makers are putting far less cast-off to the stocks now than formerly.
The Winchester, Burgess, and Spencer magazine, or pump guns, as they are generally called, which in the hands of such men as Rolla O. Heikes, Van Dyke, Jack Parker, Capt. B.A. Bartlett and scores of others, are doing such wonderful shooting, are all built without any cast-off whatever.
There is a matter of the very greatest importance that I should like to urge upon all pigeon shooters, old, experienced hands as well as the young beginners; that is, care in handling a loaded gun. At all good clubs there are rules regarding this, which are in the right direction, but they do not go far enough. I advise pigeon shooters to make these rules: First, never to snap your gun shut, but close it gently; secondly, lift the stock up to the barrels, not the barrels to the stock; thirdly, while closing your gun after putting in shells, hold it firmly, so that if one barrel should explode, the gun will not fall out of your hands.
Every shooter should study to get both to perfection, and nothing but practice will do it. As the gun is thrown to the shoulder, instinctively the shooter moves or swings the muzzle, to keep pace with the flight of the object at which he is shooting; but if he does no more, when he pulls the trigger his shot will pass behind the bird. He therefore must make the muzzle, pass ahead of the bird at the moment of firing, and he must take care that in pulling the trigger he does not stop his swing.
As regards the cheek, there is nothing like having a small pad of soft, smooth leather, with some stuffing underneath, let into the gun stock at the spot which touches the face. In many cases I have known this pad to very much improve a man's shooting, even when his face had not been hurt by the recoil, as it takes off the jar caused by recoil of first barrel, and enables a man to use his second quicker and with greater precision.
There are three arguments used by many trap shooters in favor of the smaller charge, which is usually put at 1 1/8 oz. First, that the full charge of 1 1/4 oz. does not travel so rapidly through the air as 1 1/8 oz. of shot, and therefore the shooter has to lead a crossing bird more, and has not such a good chance with a fast direct driver; secondly, that the full charge causes too much recoil, and by throwing the gun off the line of flight of the bird when first barrel is fired, makes it harder to put in as speedy and efficient a second; thirdly, that the outside pellets of the charge with the heavier load have little penetration, travel up slowly, and are practically useless. All of these objections are urged by men who have had much experience and are good judges. There is also a fourth argument, which, however, does not always apply, and that is, that some guns shoot a poor pattern with 1 1/4 oz. of shot, while making a good one with less.
He will most likely shoot better if he watches each bird that his opponent shoots at, so as to keep his eye accustomed to the flight of the birds, as well as the light. If any one of my readers happens to be a cricket player, he will know that leaving the wicket, and especially leaving the ground when he is batting, takes his eye off and makes him far more likely to miss the next good ball he gets; and so it is with pigeon shooting; the eye gets used to instinctively following the flight of the birds, and gauging the direction and velocity of each one. He will also, if he is a good shot himself, see why his antagonist has missed, and avoid, perhaps, committing the same error.

Capt. Money was 2nd in the 1894 GAH and used his Greener in the 1897, 1898 & 1899 GAHs; a Parker in 1900 & 1901. He purchased a CH Parker SN 87238 in 1897 which he returned for his discount purchase price of $75 in Dec. 1898. He also used a L.C. Smith in 1897 and purchased a Smith A2 in 1901. He later had two Parker pigeon guns stolen.
Reward offered for Parker stolen July 20, 1901; SN 90,635, 8#, 30” barrels.
“Captain Money, of the “E.C.” and “Schultze” Powder Company, New York, is mourning the loss of his Parker pigeon gun, which was stolen February 15 (1902) at Paterson, N. J. The gun was taken from the case and shells substituted, giving it the required weight, so he did not discover his loss until some hours later. This is the second Parker gun Captain Money has lost in this manner.”

His A2

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/333891829.jpg

[David Lien]

Very good post Dr. Drew. I did read your last post 3 times this morning, will read the post again before the day is over. Thanks again for the post.
David

[charlie cleveland]

this was a good read...would love to have one of those 3 1/4 inch chambered parkers and one of those shells...looks like after all these years those stolen guns would have turned up some where....this articule was unique...charlie

[Drew Hause]

More fun reading gentlemen

“Manly Sport of Pigeon Shooting” The Illustrated American March 24, 1894
http://books.google.com/books?id=tHVNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA309&dq
A VERY pretty sport is pigeon shooting, and its popularity in this country is increasing every- day. In the neighborhood of New York alone there are close upon a dozen clubs where, during the season, there is at least one shooting a week. Such are the Carteret, the Westminster, the Country, the Hollywood, and Tuxedo clubs. There are persons who look upon it as a cruel pastime. But when one considers that the ultimate end of a pigeon is to have his neck wrung and to be sold in the market, it would appear far less cruel that he should end his days like a flash of lightning, and dying, enjoy the reputation of having done good service for a manly sport. Before it comes to their turn to take their places in the traps, these pigeons have a pleasant time of it. They are specially bred for the purpose and very well cared for in order that they may be strong on the wing.
Like most manly sports, pigeon shooting owes its being to England in the early part of this century. Some persons will go much farther back and trace its origin to hawking, which was a thoroughly cruel sport. Hawking declined in England after the days of the Stuarts, but never actually died out, and may at the present time be actually revived. Frederick, Prince of Wales, tried to make it the fashion, and had a falconry at Durdans, near Epsom, at present the seat of England's new Premier, the Earl of Rosebery. Some noblemen did the same thing during the early part of this century, but met with only fair success. One thing that militates against falconry in England is that the higher branches of the sport, kite hawking and heron hawking, have become impracticable there owing to the extinction of the kite and the impossibility of securing in so thickly populated a country the requisite conditions for the flight of the heron.
It was somewhere in the early twenties that a member of the bucks of London commenced to meet four times a week at Battersea, on the banks of the Thames, for the purpose of pigeon shooting. The first great record we read of was made by a Captain Ross, who, in 1828, killed from five traps at thirty yards, seventy-six birds out of eighty. Of the other birds, three settled on the fence, and one was hard hit, although the shooter's first barrel missed fire. In 1841 he killed, in a match at thirty-five yards rise, fifty-two birds out of fifty-three. In 1850 this club, which was called the Red House Club, was closed, .and trap shooting went out of fashion for some years. Its revival at Hurlingham brought it once more to the fore, and to-day, during the London season, you may see some three or four thousand of the elite of society on the grounds where polo divides the attention with pigeon shooting.
But there is no place in the world where pigeon shooting is done with as much style as at Monte Carlo. The annual international meetings there bring together the crack shots from all countries, who learn that excellence in this class of marksmanship is not the monopoly of any race. One year it is the French who take the lead, another the English or Americans, another the Italians. During the international week a prize of considerable value is shot for each day, but the principal one is the Grand Prix du Casino.
In the first year of the competition, 1872, this was won by Mr. George Lorillard, of New York. For the next six years Englishmen took it, and then, in 1880, Count Esterhazy won it for Austria. Italians have won it six times, Count Cuidicini carrying it off three times. This year it was won by Count Lichy, an Austrian.
Our sportsmen, although generally better in the field than the sportsmen of other countries, are, perhaps, not as good as foreigners at the trap. This is no doubt due to the fact that they are not accustomed to shooting in preserves.
The illustrations accompanying this article were taken at a recent return match, shot off at the Westminster Kennel Club grounds in Long Island, between the crack shots of New York and Philadelphia. In both matches the New York team proved victorious.
New York was represented by Messrs. Fred Hoey, George Work, Edgar G. Murphy, and Capt. A. G. Money. Philadelphia, which was the favorite, had on her team Messrs. Charles Macalester, “D.S. Thomas”, H. Yale Dolan, and K.A. Welsh.
The match proved to be one of the best team matches ever contested in this country. Until the forty-seventh round the result was in doubt, and then the New York team only won by three birds. The Philadelphians, it is only fair to state, were not up to their usual form. At first the New Yorkers, with the exception of Captain Money, an Englishman now residing in this country, appeared to be in excellent condition, but they too did not do their best work, save in the case of Mr. Hoey, who killed forty-seven birds out of fifty, and got a good deal of applause for the workmanlike fashion in which he grassed the last twenty-eight. Mr. Macalester did the best work for Philadelphia, killing forty-six birds out of fifty.
At the twenty-third round the two teams were tied. The betting, which had been pretty dull up to this, now received a fresh impetus. But Murphy lost form after having killed twenty birds. Captain Money did the same, and Philadelphia came to the fore.
At the conclusion of the thirty-third round the Philadelphians led by three. At the thirty-sixth round they were in the lead by six. Then they did some poor shooting, and at the close of the forty-second round the score was a tie. Mr. Welsh now had some terribly poor luck, and this enabled New York to win in spite of Captain Money’s bad shooting. Capt. A.C. Money, New York

[Drew Hause]

Live Bird competition was a one-time demonstration sport; at the 1900 Paris Olympic Games
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=185YOyQl7GIB9OYLs9Hr3tnMLHqs4rjEdR4j_E9l4HL w

Donald Mackintosh
https://www.sahof.org.au/hall-of-fame/member-profile/?memberID=401&memberType=athlete
http://www.shootcanada.ca/mackintosh-postal-tournament.html

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/408672163.jpg

Greener ad in Recreation, 1898
https://books.google.com/books?id=sOsXAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA328&lpg
$17,500 in 1898 would be about $437,500 today :shock:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/413785564.jpg

Mackintosh used a hammer Greener in the Olympics Games

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/413785579.jpg

[Drew Hause]

Monte Carlo Le Tir au Pigeons
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24800261

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24800261/413784022.jpg

Interesting collection of Live Action Pigeon and Target shooting
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/vintage-live-action-trap-and-live-bird-shooting.514889/

And some big money Pigeon Shoots
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/historic-25-000-pigeon-shoots.641985/

[Dean Romig]

OK, I have a CHE 30" , factory no safety, full beavertail, high stocked PG, choked .048 & .048, factory pad. Ser #220183. I have always felt this is a LBG. What is it? There are no records.
David


David, does your CHE have the full Trap Comb that was available by special order at that time?
If yes, then we can presume it was likely ordered as a competition gun rather than a combination game/clays gun or a game gun.

Even without the Trap Comb it may still be a dedicated pigeon or clays gun. Does it have a single trigger or a double?





.

[David Dwyer]

No Dean , it does not

[Drew Hause]

Another Live Bird gun

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/411274921.jpg

Elliott used a Greener in the 1895 GAH, then shot for Winchester with an 1893 Repeater using "Leader" shells loaded with "E.C." powder, then Hazard "Blue Ribbon" when he defeated Fred Gilbert to take back the Kansas City "Star" Cup April, 1898. He then retained the cup first beating R. O. Heikes by the score of 94 to 93/100, then C. W. Budd, J.E. Riley, and Fred Gilbert in Kansas City.
In March 1899, he had the High Average at the Sportsmen's Association Championship Tournament held on the roof of the Madison Square Garden breaking 1223 out of 1300 targets and held the following trophies in 1899: DuPont Trophy, St. Louis Republic Cup, & Cast Iron Medal (all at Live Birds) and the "E.C." Target Championship Cup & "Republic" Inanimate Target Cup.
He finished 1900 holding the Cast Iron Medal, Sportsmen's Review Cup, and the St. Louis Republic Cup, then in January 1901 won back the DuPont Trophy.
He later used a Model 97 Pigeon Grade.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/382579738.jpg

[todd allen]

Good job, Drew. I'd bet that you and I have traveled down some of the same roads.

[Dave Noreen]

Wish I owned this box of 3-inch LEADERS --

63585

to go with my "Pigeon Gun" with 3-inch chambers --

63586

[charlie cleveland]

that box of shells would be a fine addition to your gun...charlie

[Will Gurton]

Sorry I am late to this party.

I came across an interesting notation in a 1898 Hartley & Graham Catalogue.

Notice the bottom of the right page. It states "Straight Grip (Pigeon) stocks to order, no extra charge".

This would lead me to believe that by the turn of the century Pigeon was synonymous for a Straight Gripped Gun.

Will

[Drew Hause]

Interesting ads for second hand guns in 1906; several "Pigeon" listed along with grips and the dimensions, which appear very "modern"
https://books.google.com/books?id=r0gcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA888&lpg

[Ed Blake]

It seems the straight grip for competition guns was popular back then, maybe because of double triggers. Although, I have never had any difficulty with straight versus pistol grips on my guns. I guess it was as just preference. The straight gripped guns look more lively and fast to me.

[Drew Hause]

E.D. Fulford, winner of the 1898 GAH at Live Birds with a Remington had a different opinion ;)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/389691556.jpg

"TRAP FACTS FROM FULFORD"
Sporting Life, Utica, N. Y., March 14, 1898
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_26/SL3026025.pdf
A gun with two sets of barrels, both the same length and weight, is to be recommended. Have trap set bored to shoot 70 per cent, of load in a 30-inch circle, at 40 yards. Have field set with right barrel cylinder and left barrel modified choke. Get a gun with drop and cast-off that fits you, and one that you can hit the objects with. The average man needs about 2 3/4 inches drop at butt, 1 1/2 inches drop at comb, 14 1/4 inches long, full pistol grip, weight 7 1/2 to 8 pounds. The Remington Arms Company without doubt or question produce the best and strongest gun for the money made in the world to-day.

Apparently that is what Hunter Arms thought; from the 1910 catalog and fairly late since the last GAH at Live Birds was 1902
"The straight grip admits of the most rapid work possible and supplies a want long felt by sportsmen."

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17127707/395505034.jpg

[Drew Hause]

1895 and only one straight grip. The DuPont Cup was at Live Birds

The World Record squad: Harmon Dando- 20, Smith; (a glowering) E.D. Fulford– 20, Greener; Ferd. Van Dyke– 20, Winchester; John Connor– 20, Daly; Sim Glover– 20, Greener; Charles Young– 19, Young Repeater

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/410685383.jpg

[Christopher Lien]

Here's a cut taken from the American Field newspaper of the 22 gents who shot straight (25/25) to qualify for the miss-and-out shootoff at the 1901 Live Bird GAH.

Some time ago I bought an original silver albumen picture of this scene with the photographer's logo and names of the shooters by row and place inscribed on its matting.

In case someone wonders, I won't post copies of this original picture or of the individual shooters/places as it would be so easy for gents to copy, and next I know I'll see them for sale on E Bay etc. :nono:

This may the only original picture of Ansley H Fox that's been found. Some day I'll figure out what to do to keep it honest for posterity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frank, The 1901 GAH Live Bird shoot photo you posted with Ansley Fox, F Parmalee, and others is a great image. If you have an original photo of this event, your concerns about copies and modern day ebay profiteers is very well founded.

Not long ago there was a well known photo Re-Print seller who was actually caught selling images on ebay that he had copied from the cover of the Parker Pages publication. It would have been a better scam had he removed all remnants of the "Parker Pages" title letters from the image before attempting to pass the photo off as his own. The interesting thing, he was advertising his wares on the PGCA web-site at the same time he was copying Parker Pages images and selling them on ebay - WoW!...

Nowadays, anything the ebay opportunists think they can copy and make a buck on is fair game. If you have an original old photo with unique subject matter that falls into the wrong hands, they can destroy the integrity and value of that image overnight with a stack of washed out low resolution $4.99 cheap copies... It's good you are taking care of your original 1901 GAH Live Bird shoot photo, and do be careful who you give copies to...

This is a great thread with some outstanding old Live Bird Shoot information, sorry I arrived late... As always, thanks to all who contributed.

Below are early images showing A.H. Fox at the Peters Cartridge Co sponsored Atlanta Gun Club event in October 1900. Reports mention Fox only lost 1 bird on the final day live bird shoot. Ansley is seen in a dark sweater at top holding up a box of shells and resting a pump-gun against his leg, his unique face and mustache always easy to find in a crowd.

Best, Chris ~ CSL
___________________________________


http://doubleguns.net/cslphotos/1AH_Fox1900A.jpg
___________________________________


http://doubleguns.net/cslphotos/1AH_Fox1900C.jpg
___________________________________


.

[Bill Murphy]

Check out the gal holding a Model 97 Winchester trap gun. I wonder if she's Ansley's backup shooter.

[Drew Hause]

1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. was the standard Live Bird load in the U.S. 1895 - about 1900; and although Krupp, Siemens-Martin and Whitworth fluid steel barrels were available, certainly most guns were Damascus

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders, “Tests Of Strain On Breech Actions”, in Field, 1892
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Bulk Smokeless Pressures in 2 3/4” case
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA86
Long Tons/ sq. inch converted to PSI by Burrard’s formula

(Proof) with 6 1/4 Drams “Tower Proof” Black Powder and 1 2/3 oz. shot – 4.51 Tons = 14,034 psi
3 1/2 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4 T.S. Black Powder – 4.2 Tons = 12,992 psi
“Schultze” – 4.28 Tons = 13,260 psi
(In a 3” case, with additional wadding the pressure for “Schultze” was 4.93 = 15,445 psi )
“E.C.” – 4.92 Tons = 15,411 psi

Note the SAAMI 2 3/4" 12g Max. is 11,500 psi

and BTW 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. (1275 fps) in an 8# gun = 27 ft/lbs free recoil :shock:
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in today's 10# trap guns = 16.2 ft/lbs

[Frank Srebro]

1 1/4 oz. with 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. was the standard Live Bird load in the U.S. 1895 - about 1900; and although Krupp, Siemens-Martin and Whitworth fluid steel barrels were available, certainly most guns were Damascus

Sporting Guns and Gunpowders, “Tests Of Strain On Breech Actions”, in Field, 1892
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Bulk Smokeless Pressures in 2 3/4” case
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA86
Long Tons/ sq. inch converted to PSI by Burrard’s formula

(Proof) with 6 1/4 Drams “Tower Proof” Black Powder and 1 2/3 oz. shot – 4.51 Tons = 14,034 psi
3 1/2 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4 T.S. Black Powder – 4.2 Tons = 12,992 psi
“Schultze” – 4.28 Tons = 13,260 psi
(In a 3” case, with additional wadding the pressure for “Schultze” was 4.93 = 15,445 psi )
“E.C.” – 4.92 Tons = 15,411 psi

Note the SAAMI 2 3/4" 12g Max. is 11,500 psi

and BTW 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. (1275 fps) in an 8# gun = 27 ft/lbs free recoil :shock:
1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in today's 10# trap guns = 16.2 ft/lbs

Drew, not to get anything started here again but I read that you're using "Burrard's conversion" factor to come up with those psi numbers. Can you please elaborate how that conversion relates/applies to period American lead crusher pressures, and from there to modern transducer measurement? Thank you.

Interesting that Askins wrote extensively in 1929 about American shotshell loading and pressure testing and although I read his volume many times I don't remember seeing any reference to Burrard nor anything other than lead crusher pressure in tons per sq inch. Let's take just one number from his chart for maximum loads of DuPont's Bulk smokeless as provided by its Brandywine Lab, i.e., 12-gauge 1-1/4 ounce and 3-1/2 drams shows an average of 4.70 tons. Now, correlating with the data here in the quote that would be about 14,750 psi. That doesn't make sense to me

[Drew Hause]

Yes, those numbers are Burrard's conversion.

The long explanation starts just past 1/2 way down here Frank
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

Here's the short version for us non-deep thinkin' types :)
Burrard's conversion formula for Tons/sq. inch as measured by LUP is probably close to modern piezo transducer measured Pounds/sq. inch (PSI).
Since we cannot KNOW the conversion for PSI as measured by LUP to PSI as measured by transducers, adding 10 - 14% to the load pressures reported as PSI by LUP seems reasonable.

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer “Super-X The Long Range Load” by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g “Duck Load” (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X “Field”) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. Powder; also not specified but no doubt DuPont Oval) at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet) and 1000 fps at 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 11,480 psi by Burrard’s conversion.
All of Coxe's pressure curves are in the doc also.

[Frank Srebro]

Thank you Drew, and how about Burrard's conversion of the average 4.70 tons/sq inch on the DuPont's load provided by its Brandylwine Lab? Wouldn't that be about 14,750 psi per Burrard? If so …. isn't that well above the average 12-gauge service max of yesteryear and today?

[Drew Hause]

This is the pressure curve from “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics” by Wallace H Coxe; E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1927, a DuPont Oval Pamphlet, p.20.
Dram Eq. is listed in the text as 3 but is more likely 3 3/4 compared to the 1928 data.
Charge was 1 1/4 oz. Pressure is expressed in Long Tons.
“All Powders Loaded To Develop The Same Energy” was added to a similar chart in 1931.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24488932/410772139.jpg

Using Burrard’s estimated Tons Lead Crusher Pressure (Cp) conversion to PSI (pound force per square inch): (Cp x 1.5) - .5 = TSI; TSI X 2240 = PSI
Ballistite maximum pressure at 1” was 4.9 Long Tons = 15,344 psi
Schultze at 1 3/4” was 4.5 Long Tons = 14,000 psi
DuPont Bulk at 1 2/3” was 4.1 Long Tons = 12,656 psi
FFFg (likely proof load) at 1 1/2” was 3.8 Long Tons = 11,648 psi
DuPont Oval at 2” was 3.5 Long Tons = 10,640 psi

Could you please scan and post the chart to which Askins was referring in 1929?

This is the 1933 chart; now expressed as PSI measured by LUP.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24488932/314583132.jpg

The pressure curves are for a 3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/4 oz. load.
Pressure by modern piezo transducers would be 10-14% higher.
DuPont Bulk = 9,600 psi
FFFg = 9,000 psi
DuPont Oval = 8,700 psi
DuPont MX = 9,800 psi

[Frank Srebro]

Drew, I don't have access to a scanner where I'm at right bow. Here's a cell phone pic of that DuPont's Brandywine Lab data cited by Askins. See the 12-gauge/3-1/2 dram/1-1/4 ounce loads of its Bulk smokeless I referred to earlier.

frank

[Drew Hause]

Thanks Frank and I can't reconcile those numbers with Coxe's pressure curves or the 1927 SuperX flyer; 1000 fps at 40 yards, with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 11,480 psi by Burrard’s conversion.
Coxe was the Ballistic Engineer at Brandywine

[Frank Srebro]

And Drew thank you too.

I have been and still am very dubious that Burrard's conversion has any meaningful application to period American shotgun lead crusher pressure numbers.

Consider this on the DuPont Lab data cited by Askins and shown in my cell phone inset:

4.70 tons/sq inch X 2240 long ton pounds X 1.10 rough conversion from lead crusher tons to transducer psi = ~ 11,580 psi which is on par with industry standard average max pressure for 2-3/4" 12-gauge.

[Drew Hause]

And to confuse thing further :(

1933 lawsuit against Remington Arms related to the burst barrel of a Baltimore Arms Co. shotgun after using a Nitro Club marked Proof Load.
https://books.google.com/books?id=7pcbfeEwkDwC&pg=PA120&lpg
https://books.google.com/books?id=7pcbfeEwkDwC&pg=PA127&lpg
The “maximum commercial load” was described at “11,200 psi and 5 long tons” = 15,680 psi by Burrard’s conversion.
The proof load was “7 1/2 long tons or 17,800 psi”; 7.5 tons is 24,080 psi by Burrard’s conversion.
The simple formula conversion for 7.5 long tons is 16,800 pounds, which we understand doesn't work for LUP to PSI, but I wonder if the 7 1/2 to psi was miscalculated?

A Parker Service and Proof Load table was published in the 1930s and reproduced in the The Parker Story p. 515. 12g 2 3/4” shell Service Pressure is 10,500 psi. Definitive proof used 7.53 Drams Black Powder and 2 oz. shot with a pressure of 15,900 psi. The pressure was no doubt measured using LUP and modern transducer values would be 10-14% higher, or more than 17,500 psi.

LTC Calvin Goddard reported the same numbers in “Army Ordnance”, 1934. He wrote that Parker followed the SAAMI standards of that period: 13,700 psi proof, 9500 psi service for 2 5/8” chamber; 15,900 psi proof, 10,500 psi service for 2 3/4” chamber (by LUP) + 10-14% for modern transducer measurement.

[Drew Hause]

Here's the 1927 flyer; by Askins

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/384733220.jpg

3 1/2 Dram Bulk Powder = "3 3/4 tons" = 11,480 psi by Burrard's conversion

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/384733222.jpg

No clue as to how 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. Bulk became 4.7 tons/sq. inch in 1933

[charlie cleveland]

love reading these comments by atkins and others...charlie

[Frank Srebro]

I'm familiar with that Super-X brochure and have a few of them with different color covers. As I read the text, the breech pressure of the Super-X progressive powder load is 3-3/4 tons. Also reading, that progressive load is safe in guns made for the old 3-1/2 dram load of bulk powder - but no pressure is cited for that old load in the text shown here. It's likely that old 3-1/2 dram Bulk load is similar to the one I referenced earlier that gave 4.70 tons/sq inch with 1-1/4 ounce of shot according to DuPont's Ballistics Lab.

(COPIED) 4.70 tons/sq inch X 2240 long ton pounds X 1.10 rough conversion from lead crusher tons to transducer psi = ~ 11,580 psi which is on par with industry standard average max pressure for 2-3/4" 12-gauge.

Burrard's conversion was not used in the snippet I copied.

Askins also wrote that progressive powder loads would generally produce higher velocity at standard service pressure, or (with a reduced powder charge) regular velocity with lower pressure. That was due to what he called the "barrel burning time" of progressive powders which in one test of DuPont's Oval was nearly twice as long as that of the dense powder to which it was compared. It should also be noted that several of Dupont's progressive burning powders were utilized by Western in its earliest Super-X shells before the company switched to its own powders, and one of DuPont's in particular was remarkable in producing high velocity with relatively low pressure but it was very expensive to produce.

Again, I am very doubtful that Burrard's conversion has any real application to period American shotshell lead crusher pressures as expressed in tons/sq inch. On that line I strongly suggest that Drew (who I respect greatly for his work with composite barrels) include a note on future postings that his use of Burrard's calculation may not be universally accepted. Thank you Drew for your consideration. :)

frank

[Drew Hause]

Double post

[Drew Hause]

These are the earliest pressure numbers I've found reported as psi (measured by LUP) rather than tons

1892. Service charge 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq.
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA296&dq

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24488932/411162589.jpg


The Overland Monthly, Oct. 1895 “Smokeless Powder For Shotguns” with higher numbers
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wv0MAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA446&lpg
p. 453
3 1/4 Dram Eq./40 grains DuPont Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. (1255 fps) = 7440 psi
3 1/4 Dram Eq./44 grains “E.C.” Bulk Smokeless 1 1/8 oz. = 7584 psi


For comparison, a DuPont loading manual from the 1960s listed DuPont Bulk:
3 1/2 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/8 oz. shot at 10,000 psi
3 1/5 (3.20) Dr. Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot at 9,900 psi
(Probably measured by LUP)

[Drew Hause]

From the 1928 edition of “Smokeless Shotgun Powders” by Wallace Coxe
"DuPont Oval can be loaded with 1 3/8 ounces of shot in a 12-gauge shotgun to develop the same velocity and pressure as obtained with a load of 3 1/2 drams of DuPont Bulk Smokeless Powder or 28 grains of Ballistite and 1 1/4 ounces of shot."

Coxe reported 3 1/2 Dram Eq. 1 1/4 oz. load (1275 fps) pressures, measured by crushers (LUP) and expressed as psi:
DuPont Bulk smokeless powder - 11,700 psi
Schultze Bulk smokeless powder - 11,800 psi
28 grains of Ballistite Dense smokeless powder - 12,600 psi
40 grains of DuPont Oval Progressive Burning powder - 9,400 psi

I think these are the best period numbers available, recognizing that modern piezo numbers would be 10-14% higher.

If we divide 11,700 by 2240 we get 5.2 tons which would fit the 1933 lawsuit numbers:
The “maximum commercial load” was described at “11,200 psi (divided by 2240) = 5 long tons”.

“Highest Mean Service Pressure” equivalent PSI transducer values as converted from LUP by Burrard’s formula (Cp x 1.5) - .5 = TSI, TSI X 2240 = PSI:
2 tons/sq. inch (NOT 2 X 2240) = 5,600 psi (pounds/sq. inch) = 386 BAR
2 1/2 tons = 7,280 psi = 502 BAR
3 tons = 8,960 psi = 618 BAR
3 1/4 tons = 9,800 psi = 676 BAR
3 1/2 tons = 10,640 psi = 734 BAR
3 3/4 tons = 11,480 psi = 792 BAR
4 tons = 12,320 psi = 850 BAR

Tons to psi by piezo transducers conversion provided by the Birmingham Proof House 11-2001 (courtesy of Larry Brown) are very close to Burrard's
2 1/2” / 3 tons = 8,938 psi
2 3/4” / 3 1/4 tons = 9,682 psi
3” / 3 1/2 tons = 10,427 psi
3” / 4 tons = 11,917 psi

I think Coxe was simply doing a formula conversion long tons/sq. inch to PSI using 2240. They were not using piezo transducers to measure psi in the 30s.

[Frank Srebro]

This will be my last post on the subject. I'll bet a lot of readers are baffled by all the numbers shown in many posts on this thread.

An analogy that comes to mind here would be: for someone to take automobile engine horsepower ratings from the 1920-30's or so, and try to compare with modern engine horsepower ratings. Yep horsepower is horsepower. But that person has no idea if the dynamometers (if any) used back then were all calibrated from auto maker to auto maker and if the results obtained with that relatively primitive equipment and converted from torque to horsepower are all dead nuts accurate - as compared with current horsepower ratings made using modern technology.

Why does this analogy at least partially fit? Because many of us are using vintage SxS shotguns and are relying on period lead crusher ton or even period psi pressure numbers to cipher what we can shoot in them relative to modern transducer psi ratings. But when using those period pressures no allowance is being made for the relatively simple gunpowder manufacturing technology back then and even small differences in % of nitrogen (money number) in various lots of the powders, addition/deletion of powder additives, and advances in shotshells such as roll crimps morphing to star crimps, different wadding materials over the years. etc. On that line it's no different than looking at a modern shotshell loading manual for a specific powder charge weight and hull, and seeing the differences in pressures by substitution of alternate primers and wads.

Sorry for my rambling here, but I come back again that a good approximation of vintage lead crusher numbers to modern psi, may be made by taking the tons/sq inch X 2240 X 1.10. This will yield a number that hasn't been enhanced by the addition of yet another conversion factor that, in sum, might make gents think that certain vintage shotguns and barrel materials were designed for higher pressures than they may have been.

FINIS

frank

[Daryl Corona]

No apologies necessary Frank. I think most of us here, especially those of us that reload, pay attention to this type of data. We may not all comprehend the technical aspects of these formulas but I for one find it interesting and useful and your analogy to horsepower ratings was quite appropriate.

Thanks also to Drew for the reams of info he distributes over this forum.

[Drew Hause]

As a victim of a public education in the great State of Missouri K - post-graduate ;) I'm not so good with numbers. I think we are all just trying to understand, despite we and the British speaking a different language :)

A not unreasonable summary, which Bro. Bruce has been telling us for years, is that there is no reason to believe turn-of-the-century Bulk (and esp. Dense) Smokeless Shotshell pressures were much different than today's loads.

The fluid steel and pattern welded barrels were not 4140 however, many are now 100 years old, and some were neglected or abused. I think we also understand our margin for error is less.

[Drew Hause]

It does appear that Coxe was simply converting tons X 2240 to derive psi.

From “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics”, 1927, a DuPont Oval Pamphlet, p.20.
Dram Eq. is listed on the graph as 3; charge was 1 1/4 oz. Pressure is expressed in Long Tons.

Using Burrard’s estimated Tons Lead Crusher Pressure (Cp) conversion to PSI (pound force per square inch): (Cp x 1.5) - .5 = TSI; TSI X 2240 = PSI in BLACK
IF Coxe was simply converting Tons X 2240 to estimate the PSI in BLUE and is compatible with other 3 Dr. Eq. published measurements (+ 10-14% for modern transducer numbers)

Ballistite maximum pressure at 1” was 4.9 Long Tons = 15,344 psi (by Burrard) or 10,976 psi
Schultze at 1 3/4” was 4.5 Long Tons = 14,000 psi or 10,080
DuPont Bulk at 1 2/3” was 4.1 Long Tons = 12,656 psi or 9,184
FFFg at 1 1/2” was 3.8 Long Tons = 11,648 psi or 8,512
DuPont Oval at 2” was 3.5 Long Tons = 10,640 psi or 7,840

I wish he'd just used the Tarage table for psi instead :(
Or maybe he did, and for some unfortunate reason chose to express the numbers as Long Tons??

The BLUE psi numbers are similar to “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics”, 1933. The pressure curves (PSI by LUP) are also for a 3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/4 oz. load (+ 10-14%)
DuPont MX = 9,800 psi
DuPont Bulk = 9,600 psi
FFFg = 9,000 psi
DuPont Oval = 8,700 psi

[Bill Murphy]

Interesting that a statement was made that live bird shooting was dead by 1900. Later in the thread a 1910 shoot was described. Also interesting that my grandfather did not close his bird ring in Hazleton until 1927, two years before his death. I am still shooting the barrels from Captain Money's 1897 CH grade pigeon gun. However, they are now mounted on a later DH grade gun, but still active.

[Drew Hause]

The last Interstate Association GAH at Live Birds was in KC at Elliott's Blue River Park in 1902
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/1902-last-gah-at-live-birds.208505/
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/kansas-city-shooting-parks-c-1900.824043/

Live Bird competitions continued long thereafter
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/a-page-from-the-past-1913-tournament-programme.825695/

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Here are two Pigeon guns that are consecutive serial numbered, both with 32" Whitworth barrels marked pigeon gun. What is neat is one is a AA Hammer gun and the other is a AAHE. PGCA letter confirms both as pigeon guns, will have this pair in Sanford for display

[Wayne Owens]

Now that is one beautiful set! WOW.

[Daniel Carter]

Gary, i am so glad to see that AAHE again, where it is now. Looks great, thank you.

[Dean Romig]

That pair of AA Parkers is probably the only ones in existence, consecutively numbered, one being a hammer gun the other a hammerless and both being Grade-7. It’s good to see that AAHE where it belongs.





.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Thanks all, Dean had a lot to do with me acquiring that AAHE picked it up for me, took several months to make the deal but persistence pays off, Gary