Top Secret Covert Black Ops

[Jerry Andrews]

Seems as if we have a conspiracy going on here! Are you guys shooting low pressure modern loads in damascus guns or not? Sure are a lot of hints and some folks alluding to those allegations. Reminds me of some investigation operations where folks know the outcome of some work but no one ever seems to know who did it, why, or who was under surveillance if anyone was!
Jerry

[ED J, MORGAN]

Yes, we are. Check barrel thickness first.

[Bill Murphy]

I think it is time to push the "THANKS" button on Ed Morgan. He has hit the nail on the head about step one in determining the safety of composite barrels.

[Dave Suponski]

I sure am...RST's or home rolled....the secret is out....:rolleyes:

[Dean Romig]

I have never been afraid of Damascus barrels. I think we all should be respectful of what can happen with any barrels that have been honed too thin - or have had dents improperly repaired - or barrels that have had the chambers lengthened to the point where the area of the beginning of the cone is dangerously thin - or where pits or occlusions in the composite barrels compromise their safety, whether Damascus or fluid steel.

I shoot some known brand 'off the shelf' loads in some of my guns where I know the barrels are stout enough and in "light game guns" I use low pressure loads.

[King Brown]

There's no conspiracy or nods and winks, my friend. I don't know a gunner who isn't shooting damascus, twist, laminate with loads around and under 7,000 psi without giving it a thought.

[Bruce Day]

I shoot them with brand name shells up to the Parker service limits for the gun when I want to use hunting loads.

Jerry, I've heard that some people are even using those old fashioned bamboo fly rods to catch fish. Probably just little fish.

[Dean Romig]

Jerry, I've heard that some people are even using those old fashioned bamboo fly rods to catch fish. Probably just little fish.

:biglaugh::biglaugh: :clap: Good one Bruce!!

[Jerry Andrews]

Lay a graphite rod on the ground and jump on it, then lay a bamboo rod on the ground and jump on it. You can still use the bamboo rod, the graphite rod will be crushed!
Thanks for the info guys on the shells. I have a C grade in here now, has a safety issue, with damascus/ or at least non regular steel barrels I'm going to try & buy. It's a 16 gauge, I can see me formulating a trip to NY or Mich for a trial on grouse. Jerry

[Dean Romig]

Jerry, what does that C show tha barrel steel to be? On the inscription on the top rib it will be either Damascus Steel or Bernard Steel if it is not "regular steel"? Nice! in any case. A sixteen gauge C grade is nice in anybody's book. I hope you're able to buy it... we want pictures please.

[Bill Murphy]

Jerry, what are "non regular steel barrels"?

[Jerry Andrews]

I don't know, I guess I'm trying to say anything steel that's not damascus, twist or rated as not being able to handle modern loads. Jerry

[Bruce Day]

What is a modern load?

[Jerry Andrews]

?? Anyone?

[Bruce Day]

Jerry, that's the point. People have identified "modern" loads from Winchester, Remington and Federal that are under the Parker service load averages on p. 515 of TPS. Then there are the high weight, high powder loads sold as Express, Black Cloud, Golden rack 'em or whatever pheasant loads that are not new but have been around under various names since the 1920's. These loads were not appropriate for most Parkers then and not now. "Modern" tells me nothing, just as a person asking you if they can catch fish with a bamboo rod. You're not going to go after a tarpon with a 4 wt......just match the load to the instrument.

If you can figure out tippet size, leader size, fly line, DT, WF, etc and fly size relative to rod weight and fish size, a person can certainly understand shot and powder charge and be match the load to the gun.

[Jerry Andrews]

Well horse nuts, I just didn't mean to start splitting the metaphorical hair here on loads, I simply tossed out an uneducated, West Virginia, Appalachian term I guess that covers everything here in West Virginia that doesn't blow our hand off or our heads up! Jerry

[Bruce Day]

Jerry, if a person doesn't want to understand loads and pressures and match the hatch a bit then in my opinon, maybe he shouldn't even try to shoot damascus or fluid steel Parkers. Hell Jerry , some folks aren't cut out to be fly fishermen either, and they should just stick with a Zebco and an Ugly Stick and pitch worm balls.

I stand corrected, they could take the easy way out and mail order RST shells.

[Jerry Andrews]

I've used a Zebco and and Ugly stick, possibly at the same time. Been some 40 years ago, but I think I did that. More than likely there was a carp at the end of a hunk of Wheatie dough ball as well. I had fun with it at the time. I think all the experiences we go through add up to the sum of what we become. Sorta. Anyway, I didn't profess to know anything about loads, I'm interested in the concept of anything but blackpowder being shot in damascus/twist guns as I've always been taught that was a huge no no. So this is all interesting to me, please bear with me if I get some terminology incorrect or ask things that are old school to most.

[Bruce Day]

Well you were talking about not having any use for The Parker Story and you were going to sell it. Don't. Read it and understand it and the lights will get brighter.

[Francis Morin]

I have a 1902 (PGCA Lettered) PH 12- 30" DT No. 2 frame- unaltered and with the later bolt tool steel wear plate- I shoot 2 & 3/4" dram Rem Green RST's in it for pigeons- and it is a pleasure to shoot. I also have shot 2.5 RST 1 oz. orange hulls in it- ditto- And if it wasn't for the Feds and steel or non-tox shot for webfeets, I'd use it for ducks as well-So enjoy your 16 Grade C- great bird gun indeed.:cool:

[Dean Romig]

Jerry, please understand that Bruce and Bill are interested in furthering your "Parker education" and not intentionally beating you up but simply trying to understand where you are in terms of various aspects of guns and their respective loads. :coffee:

[Mark Ouellette]

Hey Jerry,

As Bruce advised, please read the section on Proofing Barrels starting on Page 514, Volume II of the Parker Story. The chart on page 515 sums up the information. The section tells how good a job that Parker did in proofing ALL barrels.

But, just because a Parker's barrels can handle 12,000 PSI doesn't mean the 110+ year old stock can withstand a few boxes of 1&1/2 oz turkey loads. Please remember that:
- High pressure will wreck barrels and actions
- High recoil comprised of the total weight of shot, wad, and power (somebody correct me if I let anything out) will wreck old stocks (especially our favorite Elsie sidelocks)

So, shoot lower pressure loads (-8500 PSI) for day-to-day practice.
If your barrels haven't been reamed too thin then they should be fine for an appropriate load for the barrels.
For me, I would not shoot as heavy a load in a #1 Frame 12 gauge as I would in a #3 Frame gun. The barrels of a heavier frame gun should be thicker than those of a lighter frame gun.

Respectfully,
Mark

[Jerry Andrews]

OK, I see now what's going on with this. I went back to the Parker book(s) and read all I could on the proofing. Wonder if other gun companies went to this much bother? Is anyone shooting L.C. Smith guns the same way? This certainly sheds a new light on some of these old guns that were considered wall hangers. I have a very early L.C. Smith gun that is nearly new in every respect. I cannot for the life of me figure out how it survived but it did and it's in pristine condition. I've always wanted to kill a spring gobbler with the gun. Hammer gun, Syracuse, 10 gauge, Quality 5 at least if not higher. It's not marked as to grade in any respect. I've owned over 500 L.C. Smith guns down through the years and I can say this one is about as good as the work is gonna get. The barrels weigh nine million pounds! I can't imagine after what I've read that light loads would hurt this gun. Thanks all, Jerry

[Mark Ouellette]

Hey Jerry,

I short while back I believe it was Drew House who posted an LC Smith add claiming the Smith Guns could withstand any NITRO shells. I think the date was pre-1920.

I searched for the post with the add but came up short. Drew if you are reading this could you comment?

PS: I would trust my LC Smith Chain Damascus barrels as I would those Parker barrels of the same thickness.

Also, I have a Elsie "part gun" with good Chain barrels (missing half the bottom rib) and action. I have thought of doing my own Sherman Bell type test. Maybe open the forcing cones enough to accept 3&1/2" shells / 14,000 PSI. I do however hate to ruin those barrels...

Mark

[Drew Hause]

LTC Calvin Goddard writing in Army Ordnance in 1934, stated that Hunter Arms proof tested 12ga 2 3/4" chamber barrels at 14,300 psi.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19686599/386195959.jpg

Hunter Arms started using this slogan in the late 1890s

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/14709515/279125989.jpg

[Bruce Day]

I shoot ducks with a 12ga 2 frame Bernard that has 6 1/2lb, thick, barrels and weighs 9 lbs. Don't like to carry the gun very far, its built like a tank, but it will really blast out the 1 1/4 oz , 3 1/2dram loads. Its more solid to shoot with heavy loads than a Mod 21. Then I also have another 12ga 2 frame 30" Bernard with severely contoured thinner barrels that weighs 7 1/2lbs. It likes 1 1/8oz, 3 dram loads or less. Both guns were proofed to the same standard but each gun is different on what feels best with it.

I shoot factory loads through each but choose the loads.

Lets take an example of a factory "pheasant load", say its a 12ga 2 3/4" Fed premium Black Cloud at 1 3/8oz at 1375fps. As near I can figure looking at load tables, that thing generates 11,000psi, and I don't know what in recoil. Some folks are shooting those out of Parkers. If its an older Parker, damascus or fluid with 2 5/8" chambers, then the gun was proofed at 13,700 with service load average at 9500. If a late Parker with 2 3/4" chambers then it was proofed at 15,900 for a service load average of 10,500. Safe, probably, but over the service load averages and hard on the gun and shoulder. I sure killed a lot of wild SoDak and Kansas birds last season with a 16ga loaded with 1 oz 2 1/2 dram Fed Game loads.

[David Hamilton]

Jerry, If you go to Pintail Point this week-end you will see many damascus barrels in action. I will be shooting a 1975 10 ga Parker in the Black Powder event but I also shoot nitro in that gun. David

[Richard Flanders]

My heaviest bbl'd gun is an 1883 twist bbl 0-grade 12ga hammer gun with 32" bbls. I feel safe shooting just about anything within reason through it, that being any factory 2-3/4" 12ga shell of 1-1/4oz or less. I've shot quite a few old 3-3/4dram 1-1/4oz loads through it with no issues, and I do check it after every session with those shells.

[E Robert Fabian]

OK, I see now what's going on with this. I went back to the Parker book(s) and read all I could on the proofing. Wonder if other gun companies went to this much bother? Is anyone shooting L.C. Smith guns the same way? This certainly sheds a new light on some of these old guns that were considered wall hangers. I have a very early L.C. Smith gun that is nearly new in every respect. I cannot for the life of me figure out how it survived but it did and it's in pristine condition. I've always wanted to kill a spring gobbler with the gun. Hammer gun, Syracuse, 10 gauge, Quality 5 at least if not higher. It's not marked as to grade in any respect. I've owned over 500 L.C. Smith guns down through the years and I can say this one is about as good as the work is gonna get. The barrels weigh nine million pounds! I can't imagine after what I've read that light loads would hurt this gun. Thanks all, Jerry

Jerry, I took this double this year with my 1890 twist 10 ga. Hand load of 1 1/2 oz. copper coated #4

[Bill Murphy]

Whose copper coated #4s are they? Did you pattern test them to compare them with any other #4 shot? I patterned some soft #4s in a heavily choked Fox a couple of years ago and they about tore the paper out of the frame at 60 yards.

[E Robert Fabian]

They where from Lawrence, I bought a 5 lb. bag. I have shot 90% patterns with this 32" gun with smaller shot #6, I didn't find the CC 4's to pattern any better than my standard shot.

I recently bought a GH 2 frame 30" Ten that is a little lighter in the chokes and on the arm. Deadly on the crows so far, should be fun on the walk up puddle duck hunting coming up soon.

[Bill Murphy]

Is your GH ten a Damascus gun?

[E Robert Fabian]

Yes Bill, a 1889 gun 56630 .

[Harry Collins]

Robert,

That is a beauty. I have a #2 frame Lifter that is a dream to shoot and is choked .030 from both .802 bores. I am pretty sure the barrels have been skimmed or reamed.

Harry

[E Robert Fabian]

Thanks Harry.

[calvin humburg]

Bruce, You are a top of the rung fellow the elite numero uno. But if you ever get caught hunting on this ol zebco toating worm fishermans land your going to have trouble getting in your o the cowboy hat don't suppose you have earned the right to were one. arrigent people just stick in my craw ch

[Harry Collins]

Calvin,

I am sorry that Bruce struck you that way. I met him at the Southern about five years ago and he could not have been any nicer of a fellow to be with or shoot with.

Harry

[calvin humburg]

Thats the thing about friends you can pickem:) ch

[Steve Huffman]

Calvin, How ya been ? You and I and some others here are the other part of this great country, Life is just to short. Still want that brass ? Have a nice day my friend.

[calvin humburg]

yes, the stuff i bought works great wish i new the history of it. sent one to craig he got me the right wads capital fellow he is. ch

[Mark Landskov]

Jerry, a lot of valid points were made in this thread. Now I know that Damascus, Twist or Laminated barrels in good condition are very safe with many recently manufactured cartridges. On the other hand, I do not feel as though my manhood has been compromised by using RSTs or Polywads in my 2 Lifters and Syracuse LeFever. Sherman Bell's articles in the DGJ sold me on the strength of non-fluid steel barrels. I read everything I could about the subject and decided that my guns were worthy of a second lease on life.

[Tom Brown]

What vol/issue of the DGJ was the article on psi for damascus, possibly where a shell was lodged in the bbl. and another one fired behind it to proove the strength? Thanks in advance, T.

[Drew Hause]

All of these are "required reading" Tom

The Double Gun & Single Shot Journal "Finding Out For Myself" by Sherman Bell Vol 17: Issue 3 (Autumn 2006) p. 12, Vol 17: Issue 4 (Winter 2006) p. 28, and Vol 20: Issue 3 (Autumn 2009) p. 108

And BTW
Experts on Guns and Shooting George Teasdale Teasdale-Buckell 1900
http://books.google.com/books?id=4xRmHkr7Lp8C
On the subject of steel v. Damascus, Mr Stephen Grant is very clear, and much prefers Damascus for hard working guns. He related an anecdote of one of his patrons, whose keeper stupidly put a 12-bore cartridge into his master’s gun without knowing that he had previously inserted a 20-case, which had stuffed up the barrel. Fortunately, no burst occurred, but a big bulge, which, however, Mr Grant hammered down, and the gun is now as good as ever.

[Harry Collins]

I am not where I can grab my DGJ. There is another series of articles Nito for Black Powder by John Brindle. These wernin the first several years of DGJ.
Harry

[Bruce Day]

no burst occurred[/B], but a big bulge, which, however, Mr Grant hammered down, and the gun is now as good as ever.


Response:

Beretta 687 20ga with 28ga shell dropped into tube and then loaded with a 20ga shell. Happened in August 2010 in Georgia to the brother of a friend.

We have had quite a few inquiries about these DGJ articles over the last ten years about the strength of damascus barrels. I knew we have published detailed lists several times. A person could probably pick them up in the archives.

[Michael Murphy]

Drew, Glad you were able to remember the Volumes and Issues of the DGJ articles. I remember being stunned by the strength shown by Damascus in his torture tests.

I'm still trying to get over why Jerry jumped up and down on his Bamboo and Graphite Fly Rods!

[Jerry Andrews]

OK, I'll have to tell the quick story about that jumping on the rods!
I was fishing a little out of the way stream, walked in about 4 miles on railroad tracks, starts to rain, here comes a guy walking back out. Pretty well dressed gent, looked like he just robbed the Orvis store. We stopped to chat for a second, he asked me if I wanted to have a bad day back in here fishing with a primitive tool like I had. I tried to talk to him about the beauty and advantages of bamboo, but he insisted it was a piece of worthless junk and proceeded to tell me as much. Said they broke when you looked at them. That's when I asked him to lay his graphite rod down on the rails and let me jump on it and he could do the same to my cane rod. He asked what the hell was wrong with me, I told him if the rod was so fragile then let's jump on each other's rods. He didn't go for it and that was that. He sulked away, the same bitter person I'd met 10 minutes earlier, just a bit humiliated. I regret doing it. I should have simply smiled and been polite and not gotten so redaxxed over the event. Some say I have a temper, I don't believe it!
PS. I bought a dandy Eagle grade Smith with the incorrect forend metal. Does anyone have good pics of an Eagle engraving on the forend metal you could send me? Thanks much, & sorry for the lengthy story.
One more PS. I think John Gierach, the Trout Bum had a similar condescending thing happen in a book of his.

[Bruce Day]

Jerry was found on the stream thusly:

And I was found so:

[Francis Morin]

Jerry- I have that great book, about 20 some years ago after a TU group trip to fish the Bow in Alberta, my best fly fishing buddy and ace seven card stud player gave me a copy. I'll look it up.

One thing they don't seem to teach in the Orvis and other fly fishing schools is good streamside manners- I gave up steelheading on the PM (Michigan- Baldwin area) some years ago for two reasons: (1) My old friend and mentor Merle T. Nolph had passed away- before that I always parked at his home, near Doc Green's bend and just about where the Baldwin Creek connects to the main branch- "Simmy" got me a permit pass so I could be on the PM R&G Club properties w/o facing a trespassing charge- (2) The Johnson's Orvis Lodge upriver- their guides were A-OK-, but some of their clients acted like they owned the river for the day, as they were paying for the guide fee-

I don't see where you were "off base" as the other gent made comments about your fly rod, etc first- But you are right, in retrospect- it might have been better to have walked away, shaking your head in wonder- As a long-time Leonard man, I know the cross section (like a guided bend test for API- and ASTM code welding) of a six-sided bamboo rod will stand more "gaff" than any hollowed out "soda straw" synthetic fly rod.

What gets me is all the high prices and hype for these graphite rods- and the distance casting claims- "Casting ain't Catching"--:cool:

[Bruce Day]

Francis, did you ever meet John Voelker ( Robert Travers) up in the UP? If so, that had to be a treat. Great stories. My grandfather used to fish for steelhead up there with a 9ft Heddon Thorobred, which I own today along with his Parker. Always wanted to go fishing up there. I talked to Bob Summers once and he told me about the boats and guides dragging heavily weighted streamers and roe sacks along the bottom as they drifted....he didn't consider that flyfishing and certainly not suitable for his rods. I have a Goodwin Granger Favorite model steelhead rod and hope to get up there sometime.

[Jerry Andrews]

Fantastic cartoon! Charlie Kroll ( he wrote Pools of Memory and Squaretails ) was Fred Bear's son in law, and a very dear friend of mine. I have many of Fred Bear's personal items Charlie sent me through the years. I have both of Fred's Hardy reels along with a lot of other really neat items. Charlie and Fred were close friends of John's. John actually bailed Fred out financially at least once. Charlie was 87, had cancer 5 times, was not doing too well and decided to cash in his chips so he put it. I still have the letter he wrote me the day he took his own life. It sends chills up my spine every time I read it. I had so many good times with Charlie. He was a lot of fun and turned me on to the Cooke City area of Montana. In his books Pools of Memory I read about his trip there in 1950. He suggested I look up Bill Summers in Cooke City for a guided trip. I reminded Charlie it was 1950 and Summers may not be around. He called me a young smart axe and told me to call him when I got there. I did, and darned if Summers wasn't not only around, but spry as a young rooster at 70! He remembered taking Kroll up in the Bear Tooth range, they couldn't get Charlie to leave! Jerry

[Francis Morin]

John Voelker, son of Irish-German brewer and tavern owner Nick Voelker- his mother's maiden name was Traver- so that's the "nom de plume"- but never got to drink whiskey sours and fly fish at his "Frenchman's Pond" retreat. He came down (someone held a gun to his head the rumor has it) from his beloved U.P. and was guest speaker at a TU Banquet- I got to chat with him briefly- when I mentioned I had owned a Morris Kushner "Excelreme" dry fly rod once, he light right up- I have several of his lesser known books as well as Trout Madness-- Danny and the Boys and the book detailing his start in the legal profession as a P.A. with Judge Belden in the 1940's-quite a writer, even before Anatomy of a Murder--

I also met Bernard "Lefty" Kreh, Mel Kreiger and even Ernie Schweibert, all from being a TU member back then- all these gentlemen anglers are gone now-

IMO- the best story John Voelker wrote about fishing and his hard fisted harder headed father Nick was featured years ago in an early Gray's Sporting Journal- 1977-78 maybe-- "Fishermen at Night"-- I still use his father Nick's term for a double shot- a "Doubler" was what he called a two of anything apparently- even a double header in baseball. Believe my favorite story of all, "The Measure of Silent Spirits" by Art Lee also was featured in that issue- both are great reads and I highly recommend them.

Heddon rods were made in MI- Dowagiac and Heddon, like Granger- (both Goodwin and later W&M- and even Phillipson as well) all had various grades, the main differences were cosmetic- the wraps, blued ferrules, reel seats, bags and tubes--I still have a 8 foot 3/2 W&M Granger Aristocrat 5 wt- also a pre-fire Leonard 7 & 1/2 foot 3/2 49 4/5 wt. I am keeping- I love the Leonards, but the comparable Grangers and Heddons were their equals in casting, function and fish fighting abilities. I have never owned a bamboo steelhead or salmon rod however.

I have known Bob Summers, as most all MI fly fishermen seem to-his rods are equal to the great Paul Young rods, but Bob apprenticed at the Young Rod Co. in Detroit. Lyle Dickerson rods, from Bellaire area of MI (near Bob's location on the Boardman, South of TC- are also "Steinways" but like the Paynes, Gillums and Garrison sticks, you'll write a big check to get an original one of those=- and the Parker Loman Hawes--wow, so few made over such a short time frame, and made when only bamboo was used for fly rods, whether a South bend or a Garrison-- I wish you the best of luck in your search my friend.:bigbye:

[Bruce Day]

What a thrill it must have been to meet Charlie Kroll, Fred Bear, John Voelker, only Bob Summers remains. All right, another Parker guy and I went shooting today, him shooting a lightweight Mod 21 16 in high condition, early 30's gun, 26" splinter forend, DT, nothing bulky about it.....and we were making plans to backpack into the Bechler River ( SW corner Yellowstone) for a week come a year from now. Maybe a couple adventurous others?? Native cutts.

[Jerry Andrews]

The Bob Summers I speak of is a different Bob Summers. This Bob Summers used to own the AAA Auto Court in Cooke City back in the 50's.
It's hard not to love or appreciate fine doubles and not bamboo fly rods. They are almost " bourn " out of the same fire. Jerry

[Jerry Andrews]

I too will be back in that big country next year God willing. Maybe we'll have to cook up a trip eh? Jerry

[Bruce Day]

Damascus barrels and bamboo rods. Two anachronisms. Maybe we are, too.

[Francis Morin]

So much hand work and craftsman ship in our beloved older doubles, especially the Damascus barreled and also true with the bamboo fly rods- each maker had their own "secret" finish, other items we are still eager to know today in a world of graphite rods (aka- "lightning attractors") and autoloading shotguns with plastic stocks-:eek:

[John Dallas]

I was in Bob Summer's shop this summer. How anyone can turn out such works of art in such a cluttered, dusty shop is beyond me. Bits and pieces of rods scattered about - some new production, some old rods in for repair. How he keeps it straight is a mystery. Cast one of his 4 wt rods. If I wasn't so impatient, and unwilling to wait 3 years for delivery, I'd sure like to put one of them in my rod rack

[Jerry Andrews]

There is a great mystery that surrounds the bamboo rod world and I must say, as maker, and a very anal retentive one at that, a lot of it is bunk. It's a fishing stick. A very pretty one, and one with class and style, but it's still a fishing stick. The tapers which seem to be such a secret are only a set of numbers. No patents can be applied, they are simply a set of numbers. I'll have customers ask me if I can build them a rod with the numbers they provide. I'll gladly do that, but once I run the " moments " mathmatically on that rod, see stress curves, etc, sometimes I'll advise against that particular taper. Often they want it anyway. I can see from the taper it's just not going to work. Usually the butt is too small to handle the tip dimensions. As much as I hate to say it, I find that situation in some pretty well known production rods, I'm not naming names.
I bought a Hardy 7'3" off Bob Summers, the thing has been used a bunch on brookies. I also cast silk lines, I just can run a poly line through a cane rod, plus, I love the sound & feel of silk coursing its way through a set of snake guides. Jerry
PS. My wait time is 6 months. I'd stack my rods against anyone's in the country. Not tooting my own horn, I'm just a careful builder that understands the value of craftmanship. Not really any talent, just gotta be hardheaded! Plus, I hand plane, do all the work myself, know my product when it's finished, as I've handled it from culm to finished rod. Hmmmm, sounds like a Bear Achery advertisement Kroll wrote for Fred in the 60's!

[Richard Flanders]

After reading the posts here on them and after decades of not having any bamboo fly rods I decided to remedy the situation. I first commissioned Dave Fuller to build me a 5-wt "Parker" rod. It will be oil finished and I am quite excited to get it some months down the road. In the interim I picked up a mint condition 7' Orvis Madison 3-wt complete with an Orvis CFO reel off Ebay for a what seems a good price. I was hesitant to buy something like that off Ebay but the seller convinced me I would like it once I felt it.... and they were right. I am in love! It is incredible. Very soft action, softer in fact than my 1-wt Orvis graphite fly rod, more like my 00-wt rod actually in power. I will likely try my 00-wt reel/line on it. It is absolutely gorgeous. Unfortunately, it was snowing and windy prior to leaving the mine for home so I didn't get to try it out on the grayling in the Tulaksak River at Nyac. I am glad to be back in the bamboo game after all this time away.

Along another line, I was very anxious to get home to have a last visit with a very close friend who has bravely fought growing brain tumors for 8 years. I spent most of yesterday sitting by him with a hand on his shoulder and softly talking to him, telling him that things would be ok. 3.5 hrs after I left he opened his eyes momentarily and smiled at his wonderful wife then closed his eyes and slowly stopped breathing. She is convinced that he was waiting for me before leaving. What an honor it it's true. Losing such a close friend is painful but I can't help but feel very very happy for him right now. He fought the good fight and beat the odds for at least 6yrs past what anyone expected and died very well, at home surrounded by his friends and on is own terms. We should all be so lucky.

[Jerry Andrews]

After reading your letter, I once again have the same chills I got when I read Charlie Kroll's letter telling me he was cashing in his chips. He fished the Ausable ( he lived right on the banks, on Old Dam Road ), came up, sat on his bench by the river, waders still on, laid my fly rod I had made him across his lap and ended his life. He had already put my letter in his mailbox, then he fished, so...very calculated and he knew what he wanted. Odd the last thing he ever did was fly fished. Jerry

[Austin W Hogan]

We have a very nice start on an article on Parker - Hawes rods for Parker Pages. The annual meeting will consume most of the winter issue. The Parker Hawes story may appear in this (Winter 2010) and the Spring issue, or in its entiety in Spring 2011. We have some nice photos of Parker Hawes fly rods but do not have anything on the tournament rod or the boat/bait rod. Parker began marketing Edson at the same time; does anyone have any Edson info; or a 1930 vintage Edson Tiger?

Thanks Austin

[Dean Romig]

1930 vintage Edson Tiger?
Thanks Austin

Are you referring to the fly or was there a rod by this name?

If the fly - light or dark?

[Austin W Hogan]

Dean; in addition to streamers, Edson sold nets, leaders, fly floating solution and other tackle. Parker took on marketing of Edson's line at the same time they took on Hawes rods.Any commercial fly on an Edson card would be great.

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Austin. I've seen such items identified as Edson but I had no idea that the Edson Tiger Light and Edson Tiger Dark flies were associated with the tackle company.