opening up chokes

[Daniel G Rainey]

Who would you get to open up the chokes of a Parker ? I had in my head that Briley was the place to go, but I read some things recently that some of there work was not top drawer.

[John Dallas]

Batchelder's did a set for me a year or so ago. I don't know what their timing is these days

[Harry Collins]

I have had two Parkers chokes relieved. I regret both. Please don't do it. I have a GH with Vulcan barrels that were improved and modified. Thinking that anything on a sporting clay course could be done with improved cylinder I opened up the left barrel leaving me with .010 in the left barrel and .012 in the right. We had a 32" VH choked oh so tight and it killed ducks at unbelievable distances. We called it "Sputnik." Steel shot became mandatory and we opened both barrels to improved cylinder. Yikes! I shoot sporting clays with a 26" VH choked .015 (a light modified) and .025 (an improved modified). I have posted the best scores with that short gun. Please shoot your gun some more before you make a decision.
Kindest,
Harry

[John Davis]

Take Harry's advice. Think long and hard about it before you commit. Once you've opened them up, you can't take it back. I still lay awake at night regretting it. John

[Kirk Potter]

I’ve heard good things about Mike Orlen.

http://users.dls.net/~rdouglas/MikeOrlen.pdf

[Daniel Carter]

Try spreader loads, if you reload the x type from BPI will open from full to modified and mod. to ic. Have used them for my 10 ga.full and full with good results on clays and crows. In a 12 ga. for clays with good results. If not a reloader try RST and see if you get the result you want.

[Rich Anderson]

First off don't do it. Second don't do it.

If you do decide I would go with Mike Orlen vs Briley.

[Randy G Roberts]

Who would you get to open up the chokes of a Parker ? I had in my head that Briley was the place to go, but I read some things recently that some of there work was not top drawer.

Hi Daniel. Let me say in advance that I clearly understand that you are seeking someone for repairs and did not ask for advice on open vs don't open the chokes but if you are so inclined as to share this info I am curious as to the gun, current chokes and the intended use.... Thanks !

[William Davis]

Chance of the average gunsmith doing a good job on a gun that was hand regulated by bending the barrels before the ribs were laid, less than 50 % in my opinion. No straight true spot to index the reamer. That’s why you see so many out of round muzzles. Single barrel mass produced shotgun it’s a simple job hand made SXS not so.

William

[Tom Flanigan]

I probably shouldn't add my voice to those who say don't touch the chokes on a Parker, but I feel compelled to. You didn't ask for opinions but I guess you are getting it anyway. It's just that myself and a lot of other Parker people cringe at the thought of messing with Parker chokes for all of the reasons mentioned. There is no going back. If the gun doesn't suit you as is, you may want to consider selling it and getting one that is what you need. There are plenty of Parkers out there with opened chokes.

But the net of it is, it is your gun and you can do what you want with it. I just hope you don't do something you might regret someday. There is no going back.

[Jay Gardner]

I have used Bachelder, Orlen and have a Repro with Eyster now. Orlen has done several barrels for me over the years and his work has been fine. Bachelder did a good job as well. Looking forward to Eysters work. We patterned the barrels first and made sure the gun fit me the way it should. His work is about 2x Orlen but I will pay that knowing exactly what I am getting. That being said, I regret opening the chokes on a couple of guns. Once done you can never go back.

[Dave Erickson]

My comments are coming from a rank Parker amateur, so take them for what it's worth. I finally shot my first Parker yesterday, a 16 gauge VH with 30" FxF barrels. I didn't break every clay out of the 50, but when I ran the first couple stations I was immediately relieved that I didn't open the chokes! (what a nice shooting gun!) The tight chokes seems to work just fine near or far. Mind you, I bought the gun for fun on the range and a duck hunt now and then, so my thinking might not apply to your needs.

[Rich Anderson]

I have come to appreciate tighter chokes esp in guns used for clay targets. You can tell where your hitting or chipping and when your right on it's impressive. A choke combination I have learned to appreciate in the uplands is IC/F especially for big birds like pheasant or later in the season when shots might be a bit further. A spreader in the left barrel will make that full choke more of a modified also.

Opening the chokes is like getting a tattoo it's there forever.

[Dean Romig]

I’ve heard good things about Mike Orlen.

http://users.dls.net/~rdouglas/MikeOrlen.pdf


Despite what you've heard about Mike's work (and he does good work) he doesn't cut chokes like Parker Bros did with an ogee incorporating the beginning and the end of the taper. In fact, I don't know anybody that does.






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[James L. Martin]

All I can say after 50+ years of shotgun shooting both hunting and clays is don't do it,leave those hundred year-old chokes alone. Don't believe that a open choke will make you a better shot,they won't.

[Rick Riddell]

Not to throw a wrench in the topic, but if at some point in time the barrel get honed doesn't that affect the choke? So you go from full to xtra full by barrels being honed, at that point would opening the chokes be beneficial?

To the OP:
Mike Orlen hands down, he has done it for me, I sent him a note, he called and we worked it out. I havent had any regrets! His prices are cheap but that doesn't mean shoddy work, sometimes expensive is just what it it is.....expensive.

[Tom Flanigan]

I can't speak from experience since I've never had a barrel honed. I never saw a reason to take metal out of the barrels although it does make cleaning a bit easier. Corn cob bores don't bother me as long as they are safe to shoot. Honing will remove some of the shallow pits but I don't think removing any metal from inside the barrels is a good idea with any gun.

[charlie cleveland]

daniel the full choke gun that you cannot hit with gives you the chance to tell the wife you gona buy a gun with more open chokes since you cannot hit with a full choke gun...now you got 2 guns instead of one.....charlie

[Dean Romig]

Not to throw a wrench in the topic, but if at some point in time the barrel get honed doesn't that affect the choke? So you go from full to xtra full by barrels being honed, at that point would opening the chokes be beneficial?


Only patterning it would give you the answer to that question.





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[todd allen]

Maybe not relevant here, but in pigeon shooting, open chokes help a poor shooter, and hurt a good shooter.

[Daniel G Rainey]

Charlie Do not have a wife to answer to but when I did she always say do what you need to do.

[Todd Poer]

Needs and wants are two different things. You just have to make your mind up with that particular gun if its an investment/collector type gun or does it need be a more effective shooter in the arsenal. Obviously your gun ..... enough said.

My dad picked up a 12 gauge VH that had a pinned stock and someone a long time ago cut the barrels back from 28 to 26 to open the chokes, or someone overloaded blew chokes out and cutting back was the cure. Its essentially a cylinder and cylinder gun that is really now not so much a collectors or investment gun but a shooter. You almost have to intentionally try to miss, to miss with this gun on going away targets that are 30 yards and in. He got it for field trials. An old man and an old gun making the most of it.

Btw my dad would never modify a gun in original condition that he owned, but he sure is enjoying his new to him Parker guilt free since he did not modify it. I think he got it for about 8 bills.

[Tom Flanigan]

Todd....unfortunately your father's gun is not unusual. Many fine Parkers had barrels cut or chokes relieved over the years. There are many of them out there and they are not hard to find. That is one reason that I am so against messing with the original chokes on a Parker. One can easily find a gun that has been modified and so there is no reason to molest original Parker chokes, in my opinion. The process can't be reversed and so another gun with carefully bored original chokes is now added to the population of molested guns......an unfortunate situation.

[Todd Poer]

I agree with you Tom and understand they aren't making anymore old Parker's. But its hard to tell someone how to play with their toys and we don't know full story about Mr. Rainey's gun and or his needs or wants. We may not all agree but I respect his path of choice whatever he chooses. Not to get off topic on chokes or modifying a gun but there was similar conversation about someone now engraving a badge that for most part had been left blank for most of guns life, would that impact value or function? Anyway modifying a gun is sort of like trying to legislate opinions on morality, who is to judge, cast the first stone.

Yep there are some pretty good deals out there on some modified shooter Parkers if you have a mind for that type of gun and certain you can find one, but that gun may not see the light of day for some people but for others it would be a joy. There are lots of shades of gun metal grey.

[Pete Lester]

Does it really matter very much if the gun is an average/worn condition Trojan, V or G, provided the work of relieving the chokes is done right? It seems to me there are lot of "shooters" out there where the value of the gun would not be changed very much if at all.

[Tom Flanigan]

I truly believe it does matter, even with a worn Trojan. The guns are no longer made and therefore taking another gun out of the remaining and shrinking pool of unmolested guns is a big mistake, in my opinion. I do believe that we are only caretakers. It sounds like a cliché, but it’s true. Much damage and bastardization has been done to many Parkers over the years. Our generation knows better, for the most part, and we should not contribute to the carnage.

[Kirk Potter]

I'm not so sure I buy the argument against opening chokes saying "buy a gun with open chokes, their are plenty out there"

they're out there, but it will definitely make your search more difficult. And I guess it depends on how you define "plenty"

[Kirk Potter]

Also, if you have a gun that has no basis for a letter, or a gun with a letter that doesn't mention chokes, then who's to say the gun you don't want to open the chokes on hasn't already had it done?

[Pete Lester]

I truly believe it does matter, even with a worn Trojan. The guns are no longer made and therefore taking another gun out of the remaining and shrinking pool of unmolested guns is a big mistake, in my opinion. I do believe that we are only caretakers. It sounds like a cliché, but it’s true. Much damage and bastardization has been done to many Parkers over the years. Our generation knows better, for the most part, and we should not contribute to the carnage.

There is a difference between monetary value and having an appreciation for antiquity. My thought was opening the chokes on lower grade worn shooters would not affect the former very much if at all since they are not of interest to collectors.

[Pete Lester]

Also, if you have a gun that has no basis for a letter, or a gun with a letter that doesn't mention chokes, then who's to say the gun you don't want to open the chokes on hasn't already had it done?

I don't think factory letters are always correct when it comes to chokes. I believe changes in production happened after entries in the books were made. Scott Kittredge had a VH 20ga and the letter on the gun said cyl and full if I remember correctly. The gun shot full and full.

[James L. Martin]

Most of the time you can tell by measuring and just looking at the chokes, not many are polished after being opened ,if you see tool marks most likely they have messed with.

[Rich Anderson]

Does it really matter very much if the gun is an average/worn condition Trojan, V or G, provided the work of relieving the chokes is done right? .

Would you take a vintage car in 100% original condition and install power windows?

[Kirk Potter]

Would you take a vintage car in 100% original condition and install power windows?

Depends.. A 1953 Corvette? No. A 1958 Biscayne? Maybe?

I personally wouldn't alter anything to non original on a DH or higher, but a Trojan or VH?

[Pete Lester]

Would you take a vintage car in 100% original condition and install power windows?

A "faulty comparison" Rich. A closer analogy would be more like adding accessory springs to the steering linkage of a model T to keep it stable at 45 mph.

[Todd Poer]

Would you take a vintage car in 100% original condition and install power windows?

Nope not me, but others may and that is their freedom of choice, or at least in this country its suppose to be. Different strokes etc. etc. People just have different views. Ya know what some call fashion others call tacky, who gets to choose that label?

In my podunk little hometown in middle of nowhere redneck Alabama there was a fella that painted this wild impressionistic modern abstract art. To me it was weird, gawdy and tacky that looked the inner workings of someone bordering on insanity and most people I knew would not hang that stuff in a closet. Of course they loved his work in Paris and he became very famous over there and somewhat celebrated back home, after the fact. Besides the only other claim to fame my little hometown had was the actress that played Nurse Ratchet in "One flew over the Coo Coos Nest" uncle lived there and she came to visit, once for a few hours at his country store.

Anyway, I like the comedian Louie Anderson talking about his Dad when going on vacation wearing plaid shorts, black socks with garters and loafers and then seeing hippies walking buy and murmuring under his breath "Would you look at those freaks" and then say "Hey quit looking at us, we're looking at you."

[legh higgins]

can you open Damascus tubes?

[Todd Poer]

Would you take a vintage car in 100% original condition and install power windows?

can you open Damascus tubes?

Boy that is a head scratchier. I don't know but I guess you could, but I don't know a gunsmith today that would touch it with the liability concerns. Back at turn of the century they might have and guarantee someone on here will know the answer.

[Tom Flanigan]

I'm not so sure I buy the argument against opening chokes saying "buy a gun with open chokes, their are plenty out there"

they're out there, but it will definitely make your search more difficult. And I guess it depends on how you define "plenty"



Finding a gun with chokes that were opened adds another variable but, in my opinion, we owe it to those who come after us. For a lot of us, that’s a relatively short period of time. Just scan any of the sales sites and look for guns that have 30” or more barrels and the chokes are stated to be cylinder or improved cylinder. Chances are that the chokes have been messed with. Parker no doubt built 30” or better guns with open chokes but this is not typical. I would hold suspect any 30” or better gun with chokes other than modified or full. It may be original, but the odds are long.

I don’t view it as a monetary or collector issue at all. Rather, it is an appreciation and respect for antiquity and the superb work Parker did boring chokes. That coupled with the fact that the gun is no longer made encourages me to try to preserve intact those that are still unmolested. I don’t want to be responsible for diminishing the pool of intact guns, even with a worn Trojan.

[Pete Lester]

Just scan any of the sales sites and look for guns that have 30” or more barrels and the chokes are stated to be cylinder or improved cylinder. Chances are that the chokes have been messed with. Parker no doubt built 30” or better guns with open chokes but this is not typical. I would hold suspect any 30” or better gun with chokes other than modified or full. It may be original, but the odds are long.


Funny you mention that, I just picked up a Lefever F grade 10ga, a pivot lever rod cocker. It has 30" barrels and the chokes are R Cylinder and L .018. The muzzle shows no evidence of cut barrels. The left barrel has 5" inches of continuous taper to the muzzle. Factory or relieved? It also weighs 8 lbs 2 ounces so given the long continuous taper in the barrel with choke and it's light weight for a 10 bore it may very well have been ordered as an upland gun. The price was right either way and I am looking forward to shooting it.

P.S. When it comes to superb work in choking, Ithaca NID's and Rem 94's will often pattern tighter at 40 yards than any Parker.

[Dean Romig]

Legh... talk to me first please. You know my number.





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[Rich Anderson]

can you open Damascus tubes?

Yes.

[Tom Flanigan]

Back in the day, 10 bores were used as upland guns. We tend to think of them as waterfowl guns, and most of them are. But there are also light 10's around that were obviously built with upland shooting in mind. The market gunner Dee Slocum that I mention from time to time, hunted grouse for the NY city market with a 10 bore hammer gun with no chokes. That F grade 10 bore Lefever sounds like a real find.

[Dean Romig]

Legh, I'll see you this week and you can show me that pretty little 16....





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[John Davis]

The damascus question jogged my memory. A number of years ago I sent the damascus barrels of my Fred Kimble DH 12 to Oscar Gaddy to refurbish. While he had it he took lots of measurements of the inside of the barrels. As a result he discovered that someone (presumably Kimble, the "inventor" of choke boring) had done all kinds of reboring. That information didn't bother me at all.

[legh higgins]

for lunch?

[Bill Murphy]

The question about the .000 X .018 Lefever brings to mind my discovery about my grandfather's Lefever 1887 pigeon gun. I was devastated as a young man when I found that the right barrel on his gun was .000 and he was a dedicated pigeon shooter who owned his own ring in Hazleton, PA. On thinking about it, he was, according to my dad, a one gun shooter who was not known to shoot any gun except the E grade Lefever. The ANSWER is that northeast pigeon shoots in the early days were one shot events. The left barrel was used for competitive pigeon shoots and the combination of open and full made the same gun a great hunting gun. I never assume that a cylinder and full gun made before 1910 was opened up. I will later post my solution to the question about opening chokes. It always causes posters to accuse me of being uppity. The solution is "Learn to shoot". I usually follow up such uppity posts with an invitation to spend a day with me at my club, shooting full choke guns at skeet and sporting clays birds. It isn't rocket science, it's just changing to a different method of addressing the birds.

[Randy G Roberts]

Following along the lines of shooting Sporting Clays with F/F guns as Bill mentioned I can tell you that when we shoot SC here we usually shoot 2 rounds due to the driving distance. Most always I shoot the 1st round with my go to SC gun which has interchangeable chokes and the 2nd round with a F/F Parker, usually a 34". I really cannot recall a single day when there was much difference in the score at all, a bird or 2 maybe, some times the F/F was the higher score.

[Chad Hefflinger]

In my mind, gun fit and mount are much more important than open chokes for most hunting situations. I would prefer a more open choke if available in some hunting situations, but center of the target is the same regardless of choke.

[Dean Romig]

for lunch?


Sure. I'll call you to let you know which day. Could be Wednesday.... could be Thursday.... Friday I'll be casting dry flies to the brown trout Tom stocked in his pond a few years ago. They have never been fished and Tom says they're 12"-14" this spring. I'll pinch my barbs down so's I don't hurt 'em.:whistle:





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[Daryl Corona]

Bill. Randy and Chad summed up my opinions. A few of the pigeon shoots back in the day had a single barrel event along with the main shoot. Many pigeon shooters, myself included, shot a double with IC or LM in the right barrel and as much choke as you could get in the left. Many shot O/U's but the choking was the same. That way you could go from the single barrel ring to the main ring using the same gun. Shot size choices are another thing better left for another discussion.

Randy found out the same thing I did using tight chokes and lighter shot charges. My scores did'nt go down but actually increased. A win/win as far as I'm concerned.

And Chad, you hit the nail on the head. Sometimes a more open choke is preferable but the middle of the pattern is the middle of the pattern.

[Dean Romig]

.....and the center of every target are exactly the same size.






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[Pete Lester]

.....and the center of every target are exactly the same size.

Some targets have feathers and their size varies. There is a question that does not pertain to clay pigeons and that is how many pellets do we want in a target we intend to eat.

[Dean Romig]

But the point I made is that, regardless of your choke, your pattern spread or its density, and even if it has feathers and that you intend to eat it if you are able to bring it to hand, is that the center of each and every target is infinitesimally a tiny point and that point needs to be in the center of your shot pattern, or very close to it.

Some people believe that a more open pattern will make up for, shall we say, more 'relaxed' shooting skills.





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[Daryl Corona]

The bottom line is the center of the pattern should be on the leading edge of whatever you are shooting at, be it a clay target or, if it's a bird, the head.

[William Davis]

Advantage of tight chokes we have not mentioned is pellet density on target with a tight choked gun allows lighter shot loads. Light loads = less recoil while delivering enough, not too many, pellets on target.

Anybody considering choke changes ought to spend time patterning before reaming.

William

[Daryl Corona]

Advantage of tight chokes we have not mentioned is pellet density on target with a tight choked gun allows lighter shot loads. Light loads = less recoil while delivering enough, not too many, pellets on target.

Anybody considering choke changes ought to spend time patterning before reaming.

William

I could not have said it better Mr. Davis.:bowdown:

[Tom Flanigan]

The bottom line is the center of the pattern should be on the leading edge of whatever you are shooting at, be it a clay target or, if it's a bird, the head.

I agree in most cases, but shooting grouse at ranges of from 10 to 25 yards is instinctual and in many, maybe most, cases in tight cover, you don't see a whole bird. What you see is a flash of bits of the bird as it flies through cover. In this type of shooting, any choke at all is a handicap. Improved cylinder isn't bad but modified and full in this type of cover hunting grouse is a real handicap. I pattern my grouse guns and also shot some modified and full chokes at 20 yards and for this type of shooting its a real handicap.


Unless you are satisfied with taking just a few birds per year, open chokes and light shot is the answer. I never knew a true grouse hunter (25 or more birds per year at the low end) who shot modified or full guns in tight grouse cover.

[Rich Anderson]

Over the weekend The Great Northern SXS shoot in Wisconsin had a grouse course which was set up with green targets through the trees at high speed. Just for grins I took a straight grip DHE 12 with 34 inch barrels choked .047 in each and did quite well with it. The gun handles wonderfully, isn't sluggish or barrel heavy.

[Tom Flanigan]

That's interesting. What were the ranges? One of my grandfathers gun's was a 34" DHE. Like yours, it is a lively and great handling gun despite the 34" barrels.

[Rich Anderson]

Anywhere from 15 yards to 30 yards. It was fun with the tight chokes. I shot it with a 20ga choked IC/M and not a big difference in results.

[Leighton Stallones]

I TOOK MY VH OUT WITH .35 AND .35 AND SHOT SPORTING CLAYS WITH IT RECENTLY. I DO NOT BELIEVE I MISSED ANYTHING BECAUSE OF THE TIGHTER CHOKES AND THE CLAYS DISAPPEARED IN A CLOUD OF DUST. I USUALLY SHOOT .013 TO .015 IN SPORTING WHICH IS MY FAVORITE CONSTRICTION

[Tom Flanigan]

I TOOK MY VH OUT WITH .35 AND .35 AND SHOT SPORTING CLAYS WITH IT RECENTLY. I DO NOT BELIEVE I MISSED ANYTHING BECAUSE OF THE TIGHTER CHOKES AND THE CLAYS DISAPPEARED IN A CLOUD OF DUST. I USUALLY SHOOT .013 TO .015 IN SPORTING WHICH IS MY FAVORITE CONSTRICTION

Full choke is amazingly effective on clay birds for those who know how to shoot. However, for bird shooting, I believe that the choke that best fits the situation should be used. In my mind that means cylinder or improved cylinder for 25 yards and under and tighter chokes for the average longer range birds. Full choke will really chew up birds such as pheasants and huns at close range over a dog. I use improved cylinder and modified for early season pheasants and modified and full for huns, sharptails and late season pheasants. I like 5's for pheasants for early and late season shooting. I use 6's for huns and sharptails.

[Harry Collins]

I think you are spot on Tom. When I have a tight choke on the sporting clays field I often wait for the pattern to improve before shooting.