Model 21 barrel steel

[Mark Ray]

Ive been studying up on the model 21. Chuck Hawks states rhat the barrels are extremely tough formulation of Chome Moly steel. If that is the case, couldnt steel shot be okay in one?

[Bobby Cash]

I’m not sure about the barrels and steel shot compatibility but I’d be
extremely careful regarding steel shot and tight Winchester chokes.
I’ve measured many a Model 21 choke and they always seem to be
on the very tight side of whatever they’re stamped.

[Rick Riddell]

A valuable lesson not worth learning first hand! Model 21 is tough as nails, modeled after the BSA gun from across the pond or at least they went toe to toe or something like that! It will be interesting to see what others say.

[Robert Brooks]

My 16 ga Tournament skeet gun has viscous proof stamped on bbls and I believe that is double proof loads shot through tubes.Other 20 ga I own has regular WP stamped on bbls. Bobby

[John Campbell]

I've owned a number of M-21s, and would never consider putting steel shot through any of them. Regardless of the steel's alleged "formulation," try this simple test:

Take a steel shot pellet and rub it HARD against the underside of a 21 barrel. Does it scratch the barrel? Now imagine doing that at 1300 fps. Through a choke.

[John Dallas]

Hmmm. How is M21 steel different from an 870 or 1100? I've shot hundreds of high velocity steel shot shells through my M31 Remmie with no issues.
Has anyone ever seen a barrel which has been harmed from steel (assuming the choke is no tighter than Mod, and shot size bigger than 5)? I think there were incidents of early steel shot shells which had the payloads rusted together forms a rusted mass. Don't think that is true today.

[Mark Ray]

So: I think we are starting to get somewhere. I understand the choke thing, but that is an issue of blown patterns because the shot package doesn't compress like lead?

Here are the proofs on my 12 bore...apparently they are "viscous proofs" as well??

[Mark Ray]

From Chuck Hawks,
apparently a certain number of 21's were subjected to "blue pill" "Violent Proof", and were so marked. Would be interesting to know how many such guns were subjected to that treatment!!




The Model 21 represents the pinnacle of American shotgun design, and it is built of the finest steel ever used in a double gun. Unlike other double guns, whose frames were made from case hardened steel, Model 21 frames were machined from a heat-treated cro-moly steel forging. This is why they have a blue finish instead of a color case finish. Model 21 frames are approximately twice as strong as a similar case hardened frame. The frame is also comparatively long, which contributes to the overall strength of the gun by increasing the leverage of the underbolt that holds the barrels to the action.

The Model 21 uses special chopper-lump type barrels made from heat-treated chrome molybdenum alloy steel. These barrels have lumps that are designed to be dovetailed together, then pinned and soldered with soft solder composed of half tin and half lead. This process avoids the high temperature brazing required with normal chopper-lump (or inferior types of) barrel construction. It results in barrels at least twice as strong as normal double gun barrels.

In his Shotgun Book, Jack O'Connor said he had never seen a Model 21 shot loose. He considered the Model 21's dovetailed barrel construction to be superior in strength, and wrote that the Model 21's frame was made of the best material ever put in a shotgun. He wrote, "I believe the Model 21 Winchester double is probably the strongest, most rugged, and most trouble free double ever made."

This opinion was born out by the results of the famous Winchester proof load test. To promote the gun when it was introduced, Winchester went to great lengths to demonstrate the gun's safety, strength and durability.

Winchester purchased a selection of top brand double guns, which included all of the other famous American brands, for a "test to destruction." The technicians at Winchester fired violent proof ("blue pill") loads in all of the guns until they broke or blew up. None of the guns survived more than 305 of these "blue pill" proof loads, except the Model 21. It successfully fired 2,000 of these 150% pressure proof loads without any kind of failure, at which point the test was stopped and the gun torn down. Absolutely no discernible wear or change of dimension had occurred. This gun was featured in Winchester advertisements, photographed with the pile of 2,000 fired proof load hulls behind it.

In another test, Winchester technicians fired a standard 1 1/8 oz 12 gauge field load in a Model 21 with the top lever and locking bolt removed. Th

[Bobby Cash]

https://i.imgur.com/Ik974n1.jpg

[Rick Riddell]

I bulged a Beretta 302 modified barrel shooting #4 steel shot, so yes it does happen. Moly chrome barrels. It's your gun shoot the hell out of it, but if you bulge or pop the rib, well its lesson learned! Its not the blown pattern you have to worry about. Take the wad and shot out of a shell, fill the wad with the shot and epoxy, when it dries drop it down your barrel and try to push it out of the muzzle, betcha cant get it out through those Winchester full chokes, then imagine what it will do with 10,000 PSI behind it.

[Mark Ray]

I bulged a Beretta 302 modified barrel shooting #4 steel shot, so yes it does happen. Moly chrome barrels. It's your gun shoot the hell out of it, but if you bulge or pop the rib, well its lesson learned! Its not the blown pattern you have to worry about. Take the wad and shot out of a shell, fill the wad with the shot and epoxy, when it dries drop it down your barrel and try to push it out of the muzzle, betcha cant get it out through those Winchester full chokes, then imagine what it will do with 10,000 PSI behind it.

Understand that I am not arguing....im asking. thanks for the advice

[Stephen Hodges]

Mark, i am certainly no expert in this but my inclination is to not shoot steel through that nice gun. No need to really with all the good non-toxic alternatives today. I would buy some Kent Bismuth and shoot away with no worries. :)

[Mark Ray]

Mark, i am certainly no expert in this but my inclination is to not shoot steel through that nice gun. No need to really with all the good non-toxic alternatives today. I would buy some Kent Bismuth and shoot away with no worries. :)

It was really sort of a rhetorical question, since I have been feeding my very early Parker lifter 10 RST Bismuth at $3.00 a copy, it is not the economics.

I agree about tempting fate!

[Scott Smith]

Mark, If I were you I would NOT shoot steel through those barrels!

[Drew Hause]

Winchester Proof Steel is indeed Chrome Moly 4340 or 4130 and was introduced in 1931 for the Model 21 and reported to have a tensile strength of 115,000 - 120,000 psi with an elastic limit of 105,000 psi.

https://books.google.com/books?id=9SvbdIv4OKYC&pg=PA57&lpg
The "Violent Proof" (VP) load was reported to be 7 1/2 (long) tons = about 24,000 psi by Burrard's conversion

Steel target loads have a thick shot cup and I would certainly use them in a M21 with no more than an IM choke. Sadly more gun clubs are being forced to convert to non-tox only ie. Naperville (Ill.) Sportsman's Club and some in CA

[John Walters]

Good post learned a lot. If I paid Win 21 money I would not be shooting steel threw her. The newer heavy shot would be my choice. I always favor the investment in the gun and what it was built to shoot when made.

[John Allen]

I shot steel for several years through a model 21 skeet gun choked WS-1 and WS-2.It patterned IC and IM with steel and was wicked in the timber or over decoys.I would not put steel through any gun with chokes tighter than .020".

[Kevin McCormack]

Who is Chuck Hawks?

[charlie cleveland]

i ve shot steel shot thru my lc smith long range that has modified both barrels it has never hurt the bore on it but with the other set of barrels with full and full choke i would not shoot steel in them...charlie