Dogs Head Butt Plate on Trojan

[Thomas Baumgardner]

I never gave it much thought, but I have a 20 gauge Trojan made in 1926 that was restored at one time. The butt plate appears to be a Remington era butt plate, not a Trojan, with a bird in the mouth and PARKER. I can not find reference to a Remington butt plate with the bird in the mouth. Can anyone give me some insight as to when this butt plate was used? My first time in posting an image, not sure if it is attached.

[Brian Dudley]

That plate would not be correct on your gun. It should have the standard serrated plate that was used on the Trojan gun.

And... any gun from that era (1926) would have the name "Parker Bros" or "Parker Brothers" on it. You are correct in assuming that the plate on your gun is from the Remington Era.

Now... since all we can see is the butt end of it, not much can be assumed based on the condition of the rest of the gun.
It is not out of the realm of possibility that the gun was worked on by Remington later on and that plate was put on by them. Are there any Rem repair codes on your barrels?

[Thomas Baumgardner]

There are no Remington repairs codes marked on the gun. I have no comfirmation but the restoration appears to be DelGrego & Son. Any thoughts on the bird or no bird Remington butt plates.

[Dean Romig]

There are no Remington repairs codes marked on the gun.


The Remington repair codes would be on the left barrel flat very close to the lug.

You may already know this but in the case that you didn't I thought I would offer it.





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[edgarspencer]

The only thing that is obvious, is that the gun was not supplied with that butt plate when new. What is a mystery, is that it doesn't include the word 'Brothers', indicating a post-takeover plate similar to what Remington would have used, BUT, the dog motif is clearly from the late 1800s style.
Did Delgrego have his own plate mold made? Is it a aftermarket supplied plate, ala Galazan? Very Interesting.
There are six styles shown in the front of the serialization book, and the Remington plate is clearly for something larger than an 0 size butt, so perhaps Remington did have a small plate for the lower grades in 20, 28, and .410.
All you late Remington VH(E) 28 guys, check your butts!

[Brian Dudley]

That is typical for a number 1 size plate in the Remington Era. The same image was used on the Remington plate as was on the Meriden plate.

Edgar, you may be thinking of the style of dog head on the 0 size plate. The profile with the foliage sprigs under it.

[edgarspencer]

I'm not sure I follow you, Brian. Are you saying the dog with bird in mouth is typical of a 1 size Remington plate? I was under the impression, maybe mistakenly, that the only motif used at Remington was the left looking dog, over brush. See D-13 on page 43 of the serialization book. I do not profess to know much of anything about the Remington era. I only have Meriden guns, and one repro.

[Brian Dudley]

That impression is mistaken. The same dog motifs were used on Remington era plates as Meriden era pates. They just lost the “brothers” on the bottom side.

[James L. Martin]

CSMC sells a repro that looks the same Parker name only and a dog with a bird.

[edgarspencer]

Ok,Brian, so there ARE Remington butt plates with the dog with bird in his mouth, right?
As James points out, I kind of thought Tony did have a reproduction with dead bird.

[Brian Dudley]

YES.

See attached photo showing both the number 0 and number 1 sized plates. Meriden on top. Remington on bottom. The sizes are for different gauges.

62747

[edgarspencer]

That's neat Brian. Since the OP's Trojan was a 20, the butt must have been an 0 size, so have you ever seen a dead bird Remington plate in an 0 size, or can we assume it came from Galazan?

[Michael Meeks]

Very interesting thread! Just a question because I don't know... were 20 gauges ever built on a 1 frame?

[Brian Dudley]

That's neat Brian. Since the OP's Trojan was a 20, the butt must have been an 0 size, so have you ever seen a dead bird Remington plate in an 0 size, or can we assume it came from Galazan?



The trojan used a completely different plate. The simple serrated style. They only offered 2 sizes of plates. The 12g and the 16/20g size. They were not numbered.

The number 1 size DHBP is a little larger than the 16/20g size trojan plate. Thus explaining why the border on the OP’s plate is almost gone.

[Brian Dudley]

Very interesting thread! Just a question because I don't know... were 20 gauges ever built on a 1 frame?



In some cases, where a heavier gun was needed, Yes.

And to clarify... in this thread, the buttplate numbers are the buttplate numbers, not the frame size. On many earlier 20g gun with 0 frame, the number 1 sized buttplate was used.

[Michael Meeks]

Thank you, Brian! I was mistakenly assuming frame size correlated with butt plate size.

[Thomas Baumgardner]

I took the dogs head plate off of my Trojan and it is a #1. Spoke with Larry DelGrego who confirmed they restored the Trojan but can not provide any more information. Assume dogs head butt plate was on shotgun when it came to the shop so it was kept on the gun.
Tom

[Mills Morrison]

I have a VH 20 that has a non matching GH Grade stock. It is ironic when it is not correct but is yet an improvement over what was there

[Dean Romig]

Very interesting thread! Just a question because I don't know... were 20 gauges ever built on a 1 frame?

Not the Trojans... 12's were built on the 2-frame... 16's were built on the 1-frame... and 20's were built on the 0-frame.





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[Dean Romig]

Thomas - the DHBP with bird on your Trojan was originally intended for a larger buttstock than your Trojan currently has. The butt plate was shaped down in size to fit your buttstock.





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[Brian Dudley]

Not the Trojans... 12's were built on the 2-frame... 16's were built on the 1-frame... and 20's were built on the 0-frame.





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There was some 1 frame 12g. Trojans built on special order. With Twist barrels too. But these an oddity.

[Thomas Baumgardner]

Thanks to everyone for the additional information on the butt plate. I have no plans to change the DHB. Thats the way the shotgun came when I purcahsed it and I like it. It also shoots very well for quail hunting. I guess thats what is important. Tom

[Dean Romig]

There was some 1 frame 12g. Trojans built on special order. With Twist barrels too. But these an oddity.

Right - That's the order that was shipped to the Fae East I believe.





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[Brian Dudley]

Thanks to everyone for the additional information on the butt plate. I have no plans to change the DHB. Thats the way the shotgun came when I purcahsed it and I like it. It also shoots very well for quail hunting. I guess thats what is important. Tom



True,

But know that if you wanted the proper buttplate put onto it, it would not be anything super involved. And an investment of around $100.

[Michael Meeks]

Right - That's the order that was shipped to the Fae East I believe.

OK, now I'm lost. Dean, what's the backstory? :corn:

[Dean Romig]

There was an order placed for a number of V grade Parkers which I believe were sent to Japan and they were shipped with Twist Steel barrels. Whether they were ordered with these particular barrels is unclear to me. The answer to that question may be found in the records we have... Chuck might know or maybe someone else who has made it his business to learn this information. I honestly don't remember reading about these particular VH guns in The Parker Story. If someone else knows, they may chime in here.






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[Brian Dudley]

Trojans

[Dean Romig]

Yup, sorry....





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