Seeking info about two Parkers

[Bill McLemore]

Hello, I am new to this forum and am not a gun collector, so I apologize in advance for my ignorance about shot guns and specifically about Parker guns. Some quick background on my guns; I have two Parkers, a 12 ga. and a 16 ga. given to me by my grandfather in 1964 when I was 12 years old. I shot quail, dove and duck with them until my early thirties which was in the mid 1980's. I then put them on my father's wall with his guns and they have not been fired in the last 30 to 35 years. I have had them at my house for the past seven years, since my father's death. I am now 65 and am thinking of giving these guns to my son, continuing the family ownership that started with his great grandfather. But I realize I know nothing about Parker guns except there are some very fine models out there.However, from some limited research, I suspect these are not in that category. So, I would like to develop some information and possible a value range for these guns for when I pass them on down the line.

So, here is what I currently have. the 12 ga. has a serial number of 200663, which I believe was made in 1922, is Trojan Steel, has a frame size 2, barrel weight 4, barrel length 30 in. and a grade stamp of OV.

The 16 ga. has a serial number 233799, which I think was made in 1930, is Trojan Steel, frame size 1, barrel weight 3 with superscript 7, barrel length 28 in. and a grade stamp of OV.

Sorry about this long post, just wanted to give as much background as possible. I don't want to sell or buy more, I would appreciate information about these guns and a possible value estimate. Thanks for taking time to read this.

Following are some pictures.

[Dean Romig]

Yes, you have two very serviceable Parker Trojans that appear to be in very decent shape.

Their individual values probably hover around $1500 or so each.

You can pass them along through your family without hesitation - your sons and grandsons should enjoy them just as their forbears have done.






.

[Dave Noreen]

The Trojan was Parker Bros. entry level shotgun, introduced to the market in 1912. It appears you have two very nice examples. A couple of cautions we should put out, especially if your son might be inclined to use them are: 1. They should never be fired with steel shot! 2. The 16-gauge may very well have chambers about 2 7/16 inch long, intended for the old 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge shells, so should not be used with modern 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge shells.

[Bill McLemore]

Thanks, that's exactly the sort of information I was looking for. Not having anything to compare them to, I wasn't sure of what I have, but these type of comments help to better understand what they are.

[Alfred Greeson]

Nice guns and it is great to see you want to keep them in the family. Every little scratch or sign of wear was probably done by you or your grandfather which makes them special and he must have been a good hunter who had specific uses for the 12 and the 16. As you learn about Parkers you will know they were considered by many to be the best American shotguns ever built and in their condition, still quite serviceable today. A real family treasure, thanks for sharing them with us.

[Tom Flanigan]

Dave gave you good advice. I would add that I have a somewhat different opinion on shooting 2 3/4 inch shells in short chambers. I believe that the pressure increase of shooting 2 3/4 inch shells in the shorter chambers of the old 16 bores is minimal.

I personally would and have shot 2 3/4 inch shells in the older shorter 16 bore chambers. It's up to you to decide what to shoot in your gun. RST makes great low pressure short 16 bore shells perfect for old Parkers.

If you do decide to shoot the gun with standard factory shells, stick to the low brass loads rather than the maximum loads. It's not a safety issue, but the lower pressure loads are easier on old guns. High brass maximum loads are never necessary, in my opinion.

[Bill McLemore]

Alfred, you are correct, my grandfather hunted with them until he gave them to me, just prior to his death, and I hunted with them until I put them on the wall about 35 years ago. So, for these two guns, only two owners, same family.

[Bill McLemore]

Tom, thanks for that advice concerning 2 3/4 shells in the gun. I have a friend here that told me the same thing, so I’m glad to have a second option on that.

[Dave Noreen]

If you do decide to shoot the gun with standard factory shells, stick to the low brass loads rather than the maximum loads. It's not a safety issue, but the lower pressure loads are easier on old guns. High brass maximum loads are never necessary, in my opinion.

Low brass, high brass doesn't mean anything when it comes to pressure. SAAMI pressure specs for 12-gauge 2 3/4 and 3-inch shells and 16-gauge shells are the same, 11500 maximum average PSI. Very likely those "low brass" promotional shells sold by Wallyworld are loaded to just as high pressures as a 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum shell. They need to work gas operated semi-autos.

No one can tell you over the internet what shells may or may not be safe in a given gun, that requires hands on inspection by a qualified double gun smith with the proper tools. Generally speaking 2-frame 12-gauge and 1-frame 16-gauge steel barrel Parker Bros. guns are plenty strong enough to handle SAAMI spec lead loads. What damages old guns, and old shoulders, is recoil, a function of payload and velocity. To be kind to old wood, and old shoulders, in high volume shooting like Doves or clay targets, stick to light payloads and keep the velocity under 1200 fps.

[Rick Losey]

Low brass, high brass doesn't mean anything when it comes to pressure. .

absolutely, that is one of those old tales that won't die- high brass in the days of black powder was there to prevent burn through with heavy loads - so when smokeless came out they used the perception as a marketing ploy

it still works

[Brian Dudley]

They are both fine field grade guns that are in mostly original and unmolested conditon. Re recoil pads on them (i cannot see the back of the 12g, but i assume) are the only non-oriignL modification. But the stock (on the 16g at least, cant tell on the 12 for sure) has not been cut, so things are easily able to be put back to proper configuration if so desired.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Bill: If the next generation is going to put the guns back in the field, I would recommend a complete tear down, clean and lube. No doubt the guns will probably shoot without that but when closing in on a century, the innards could use a day at the spa. The three pieces the guns break into - forearm, action and barrels are actually around 100 parts. There will be hardened oil, dirt, grit, rust etc that is not visible and that does interfere with smooth functioning. Make sure the gunsmith is familiar with Parkers. For interest, here are the parts in a Parker VH action. This one is ready for another century now and has already taken a few wild pheasants.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=631&pictureid=7395

[Tom Flanigan]

Low brass, high brass doesn't mean anything when it comes to pressure. SAAMI pressure specs for 12-gauge 2 3/4 and 3-inch shells and 16-gauge shells are the same, 11500 maximum average PSI. Very likely those "low brass" promotional shells sold by Wallyworld are loaded to just as high pressures as a 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum shell. They need to work gas operated semi-autos.

No one can tell you over the internet what shells may or may not be safe in a given gun, that requires hands on inspection by a qualified double gun smith with the proper tools. Generally speaking 2-frame 12-gauge and 1-frame 16-gauge steel barrel Parker Bros. guns are plenty strong enough to handle SAAMI spec lead loads. What damages old guns, and old shoulders, is recoil, a function of payload and velocity. To be kind to old wood, and old shoulders, in high volume shooting like Doves or clay targets, stick to light payloads and keep the velocity under 1200 fps.

I guess I should stop using old terms like high brass and low brass. It has nothing to do with pressure, but typically, high brass shells are those with higher speeds, maximum loads and higher pressures. The use of high brass by loading companies is a holdover from black and bulk smokeless days. It is not necessary, but the loading companies still use high brass for their maximum load shells because that is what the public expects. It’s a function of marketing.

Many things affect pressure such as the type of primer, the type of case and the type of wad used. But the biggest factor is the type of powder used.

Heavy and magnum loads use slower burning powder. These slower burning powders create high pressure but it is more extended and burns further down the barrel which is necessary to keep chamber pressure from going off the charts. Faster burning powders are used for lighter payloads. These are the “low brass” loads. The effective chamber pressures are much lower than the slower burning powders.

For example, blue dot powder is a favorite for magnum loads. It is a very slow burning powder. With a poly formed 3 ½ inch case with 2 ¼ oz. of shot, it develops 13,800 psi.

Conversely, a “low brass” load using Winchester compression formed cases, SR 7625 powder and 1 1/8 oz. loads, develop a pressure of only 6,600 psi.

And finally, using a “high brass” Fiocchi case, Herco powder and 1 ¼ oz. load (the typical maximum non- magnum load), the pressure would be 10,900 psi.

I don’t know the pressure of the typical factory target load of 1 1/8 ounce, but it is definitely lower than either the magnum loads or the typical “high brass” 1 ¼ oz. load because of the powder used.

The powder is the primary key. Slow burning powders like Blue Dot for magnum loads and Herco for the typical high velocity 1 ¼ oz. loads create greater pressure than the faster burning powders used in 1 1/8 oz. loads.

All the above data is for 12 gauge. But similar results hold true for all gauges, albeit the smaller the gauge the higher the pressure.

I load all my shotgun shells and therefore know what pressure I am getting from each load. And by using low pressure primers (Remington}, low pressure cases (Federal paper base) and low pressure wads (Remington), I can keep all of my 12 bore loads under 7,000 psi.

It only takes about 8,000 psi to reliably work the action of auto loaders. I suspect that the typical factory target load of 1 1/8 oz. of shot develops between 8,000 and 9,000 psi. We can’t know for sure since the loading companies don’t publish pressures.

Perhaps the best way to buy factory loads is look for the slower feet per second target loads. The speed of the load can be found on many of the boxes. By the way, lower pressure means less felt recoil and therefore is the better choice for older guns.