Question re restoration and value

[allen newell]

Just wondering. I see classic car restorations on various tv shows bringing big bucks at auction. While i can understand that an all original parker would be most desirable and priced accordingly, why would a parker that has been restored to origonal spec be worth considerably less? Why would they be viewed any differently than a classic car restoration?

[John Dallas]

A "new, unfired" Camaro or Mustang will bring more than a restoration IMHO

[Garry L Gordon]

Just wondering. I see classic car restorations on various tv shows bringing big bucks at auction. While i can understand that an all original parker would be most desirable and priced accordingly, why would a parker that has been restored to origonal spec be worth considerably less? Why would they be viewed any differently than a classic car restoration?

I'm sure you'll get opinions on this (great) question. I'll let those with more strongly held opinions weigh in, but I do want to point out that since I've been keeping track over the past 5-7 years I've seen (well-) restored guns bring higher and higher prices (as a percentage of what an original would bring). When I visited with Brad Bachelder last summer we talked about this. He told me that his restored guns were averaging about 85+% of what a gun in strong original condition would bring.

I base my observations on what I have seen restored guns advertised for and what they go for at auction (Of course not all restorations are equal). Certainly not methodologically perfect, but it serves a purpose. I have no way of knowing the sale price of those dealer held, restored guns.

I worked in an art conservation lab for years, and I can tell you that when you visit a museum the paintings on display there (my area was painting, so I can't speak to other media) in all likelihood had had some either conservation or restoration (there IS a difference) work done to them at a rate of nearly 90% IF the piece was at least 60+ years old. I've always found it intriguing that for art of value, good conservation work (again, different from restoration) brings the premium.

Certainly a gun that has issues brought back to high condition by someone who knows what he's doing should (and does as far as I have observed) bring a higher price. The gun collecting community is evolving.

...And then there is the English gun, which, if it has any age on it, has very likely been sent to a smith regularly for barrel and stock work.

Collecting is what it is...

[John Campbell]

"Audience" drives price. The audience for restored cars won't last forever. Restored (or even original) guns may follow.

[Dean Romig]

When I visited with Brad Bachelder last summer we talked about this. He told me that his restored guns were averaging about 85+% of what a gun in strong original condition would bring.


I humbly, and with all due respect to Brad and his legacy, must disagree with that statement.

Lets take, for example, an 1893 Grade-1 16 gauge top-action hammer gun with the 'fish tail' lever and with 28" Laminated Steel barrels on the lightened 0-frame with absolutely perfect screws. Add to this 99% original barrel finish and 98% original case color and the wood is 100% original finish with just three or four very tiny dents from handling. This is a benchmark gun in every way....

Now lets take a gun of the exact same configuration that has been completely restored by Brad's shop, or any reputable shop for that matter. I have seen and handled dozens of restorations done by such shops - and they are very good at what they do! - but there is an obvious difference between the two guns. We have a benchmark original gun - and we have a professionally done attempt to bring a used and worn gun to "like new" condition... operative word, "like". But several nuances of the benchmark gun have been overlooked on the restored gun and don't look nearly as nice as the benchmark gun - such things as checkering; buffed or worn-from-use hammer knurling (for lack of a better word) worn engraving - even if the engraving has been 'picked up' or recut it still doesn't have the same crispness of the benchmark gun. Butt plates and grip caps may have been replaced by plastic reproductions or simply the checkering of the DHBP may have been recut. Some of the screws may have had their slots recut (sometimes too wide maybe?) or repaired and polished (edges rounded) before recoloring.

I could go on, but I won't. I will say that despite the efforts of the shop that attempts to bring a gun back to look like a 99% or 100% gun... it still falls short and it's value might only approach 50% of the benchmark gun... IMHO.






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[Garry L Gordon]

Hi, Dean,

No need to be humble -- I'm sure your experience has earned you an informed base for your observation. Frankly, I[I]don't have the experience or expertise to draw any conclusion about what a gun in whatever condition is worth...except that I'm sure I've paid more than a gun was worth because I fell in love with it, regardless of whether or not it was restored. I certainly look with interest at some dealers of nice American guns that seem pretty darned high based on the fact that they were in part or whole "restored." As far as Brad's observation, I assume he was basing it on his observation. We [I]all have bias. I know I do.

I do think the valuing of American guns to be intriguing. I hope someday to find one I love that I can buy for what I -- and maybe some more informed folks -- deem to be a great bargain. In the meantime, I'll muddle through trying to find the next ideal gun for my collecting/shooting interests.

For what little it's worth, I know (and care) nothing for the price and value of old cars. I can't keep up with guns, not to mention cars.

[Bill Murphy]

Benchmark guns will always be more interesting to collectors than professionally restored guns when we discount the couple of sales that are completed while uninformed buyers bid on these restored guns while the benchmark guns rest with their owners, waiting for the next buyer. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

[Garry L Gordon]

Why would they be viewed any differently than a classic car restoration?

Allen,

Just curious, what do you conclude from the discussion so far? You posed the good question to start it.

[David Dwyer]

I completely agree with Dean. A well restored gun is more difficult to sell and worth about 50% to an original
David

[edgarspencer]

I agree with David's estimate. A restored gun, compared to an equal condition, original gun is not worth 80%, but closer to 50%.

[Ken Hill]

This question reappears often enough and the originality gun is the final consensus. It is a straight forward answer comparing a "benchmark" gun price to a gun completely restored to original specs. 50% seems like a big discount considering the craftsmanship and expense to restore a well used gun to something close to new.

Is any restoration acceptable (i.e., barrels reblued correctly or stock refinish) for adding value to the gun? A lot of people stay away from recase coloring the action.

[Garry L Gordon]

I completely agree with Dean. A well restored gun is more difficult to sell and worth about 50% to an original
David

It sure would be informative -- and interesting -- to know what some of the higher priced restored guns actually go for. We can see this at the auction sites that post the sale price, but don't have that information from the dealers. One would think they put the price somewhere near what they think they can get. How near?

It also begs the question, is a gun's value what it sells for or what experts think it's worth? I could argue both ways...but will leave that to others.

[allen newell]

Time may tell a different story.. my guess is that collector grade parkers will always command top dollar but that over time, properly and correctly restored parkers will inevitably increase in value. Supply and demand will govern

[John Dallas]

I must have studied too much Microeconomics in Grad school. Declining demand while supply stays the same = lower prices. Demand for our guns is declining

[Dean Romig]

I must have studied too much Microeconomics in Grad school. Declining demand while supply stays the same = lower prices. Demand for our guns is declining


This is probably more applicable to restored guns than very high original condition guns. There are only a limited (and diminishing) number of original condition guns while the number of restored guns increases every year... month... week...

We see asking prices on very nicely restored guns but when they sell we are rarely privy to the sell price... while when a 'benchmark' gun changes hands we never even know about it sometimes for years - and the price is subject to conjecture because that is information that is rarely ever shared.





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[David Dwyer]

Another factor is "restored" or "fluffed up" guns are way too often represented as all original. I have first hand knowledge of restored high grade guns going thru auction as all original and guns being represented by "reputable" dealers" as all original actually being complete restorations. I recently saw a $78,000 sale of all original Parkers latter turn out to be restored guns. This distorts the $$$ paid for what.
David

[Stephen Hodges]

This is a very interesting post. I guess it boils down to what makes you happy. A well worn but honest Parker has been used for what it was intended for or a restored version of that gun that may or may not simulate what it looked like coming out of the factory. When I first got into buying and shooting Parker's I thought the latter. I was lucky to find and purchase, at a very reasonable price, fairly rare 16 gauge ejector gun, one of 24 such guns made in its configuration. The gun showed plenty of "honest" wear but functioned perfectly. I immediately sent it off to one of the top restoration shops that we all recognize for a total, authentic restoration. The wait for the return of my prize was almost unbearable. The day it arrived I could not wait to open the box and see what a "new" Parker actually looked like. To say my reaction was total disappointment would be an understatement. Yes, the wood looked perfect, the rust bluing on the barrels was beautiful and the case colors bright and colorful. To bright and colorful. The gun looked "perfect" and yet I was totally disappointed with it. The restorer had done nothing wrong or imperfect. Not his fault. I sold that gun within a month of getting it back restored. I now like original Parker's that have mellowed with time. After all, we all have.

[John Campbell]

The post-war American consumer/collector has always placed a premium on "new" stuff. Specifically, factory-new stuff.

If someone bought a new 1957 Chevrolet convertible and kept it in a garage for the past 61 years, collectors go nuts. Same for a 20-bore AH Parker that was purchased and never used for over 100 years.

But what's the "value" in factory-new? The Chevy was never enjoyed for what it was. And the Parker was never put to its intended use. Both are time-bound relics that no practical collector would either drive or shoot.

Give me an honest double gun that has seen use and care any day. And if it has been used to the point of distress, then restoration is justified.

The English take a different view on guns and gun maintenance. Just check Chris Batha's gun cleaning column in the current Shooting Sportsman...

[Brian Dudley]

Is any restoration acceptable (i.e., barrels reblued correctly or stock refinish) for adding value to the gun? A lot of people stay away from recase coloring the action.

Some things are maintenance more than "restoration". If the bluing is so worn that it is going to easily rust without contact oil application, then it is time to re-blue them as a form of maintenance. The same can be said about stock finish.

However, if the gun is so worn to where it actually needs these things, then it was not a high value collectors piece anyway. In these cases, the value is increases by performing these maintenance/restorative operations.

There is absolutely no reason to have to do any restoration work to a true 75-80% or better gun.

Fixing a buggard screw or something is one thing. But finish restoration is another.

Any gun truly NEEDING (say... 40% condition or less) restoration is of course going to be worth more restored than it was before. But not as much as an original gun in that same (post-restored) condition.



I tell people all the time, that very few guns are actually "worth" fully restoring from a monetary gain standpoint. You do it because you want to do it. Period. If financial gain can be had in some occasions, great.

And of course, any talk of restoration that I mention is assuming the work is top notch and completely correct. Anything less is not even worth discussing because it does de-value the gun.

[David Dwyer]

I think Brian is correct in that maintance , touching up the stock finish, replace a bad screw. is not refinishing . The value of a restored 40% gun is, IMHO, not more that the gun was originally. First, it diminishes the number of buyers and the owner would not recover the cost of the restoration. If it makes the owner happy go for it ,but from a financial investment view it does not pay off.
David

[Rich Anderson]

I think the value also depends on the grade and gauge of the gun. Small bores always bring more. Several years ago I bought a GH 20 with 30 inch Damascus barrels that had been completely restored by Doug Turnbull. The gun came from a member here and he based the asking price on condition (after restoration it was as new) and rarity. We came to terms and I've enjoyed it for quite a while.

IMHO the breakdown is 90%+ original condition bring the highest price, professionally and correctly restored is 70-75% of that and the gun with honest wear but serviceable will bring the fair market value of that particular grade and gauge.

The above mentioned GH is the only fully restored gun I own or have ever owned. I've replaced pads and restocked a couple that were so horrid I couldn't shoot the gun and have had a couple of Damascus barrels refinished. Wrong? Perhaps but there guns I use regularly and it will be the next guys issues not mine.

[allen newell]

Gents, i hope and pray that if and when your girl friend or wife tells you that she plans to have some cosmetic surgery to improve her looks that you wont tell her she's devaluing herself. Lol

[David Dwyer]

Allen
Great analogy. Some of us like all natural, wrinkles, sags and all, while others like their woman to be forever young. I think aging gracefully works with Parkers as well as people.
David

[Dean Romig]

Very well said David.






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[Stephen Hodges]

Gents, i hope and pray that if and when your girl friend or wife tells you that she plans to have some cosmetic surgery to improve her looks that you wont tell her she's devaluing herself. Lol

No, but you better check to make sure she is not having an affair:rotf::cuss:

[Bill Murphy]

Most "improvements" to a woman turn out bad.

[allen newell]

I'm not sure about that Bill. Some, perhaps many Parkers age gracefully if and when taken good care of. And there is certainly beauty and value in an 'aged' Parker that still retains it's proper conformation (to use a dog breeder's term). A Parker that has not aged well, been abused, rode hard and put away wet may be a candidate for cosmetic or more comprehensive surgery. At the end f the day though, isn't beauty and value in the eyes of the beholder. (I'm using the tem value in the broadest sense).

One of the Parkers that I have inherited is a 16 ga VH purchased by my grandfather in Boston sometime during the 1920's. Granddad hunted this 16 ga heavily in the coverts around Hooksett and Bow NH with his 4 sons, all of who carried Parkers. When he passed away, my dad inherited this little 16 and as it was his gun of choice he hunted it pretty hard. By the time I inherited it, the head of the stock was so oil soaked it felt like mush, The head had been pinned previously and there was way too much drop to the stock. Granddad had ordered it to his specs. Realizing that this 16 was not/had not aged gracefully I decided more for posterity and wanting one of my grandsons to inherit it, I had DelGrego re-stock it to modern dimensions and re-case color the frame and forend latch metal. As a family heirloom, value to me....Priceless.

[Rich Anderson]

The money used for lift and separate, nip and tuck would be better spent on a nice small bore:whistle:

To restore an original (not abused) gun is wrong and a 60+ year old woman with 25 year old boobs is just as wrong:rotf:

[allen newell]

If a 60 yr old woman wants a nip and tuck and desires to feel better about herself and the way she presents herself to the world and in consult with her physician, that's her decision and who are we to judge..

To restore a gun that has not been abused is in my opinion neither right nor wrong depending on the circumstances and reasoning for the restoration. And whether it increases the value of the gun or not is a consequence the owner bears responsibility for. I would hope that after we are long gone that shooting sports in this country (and elsewhere) continue to thrive and that Parker double guns remain in the hands of future generations whether restored or not, and valued as one of America's classic shotguns.

[Craig Larter]

I try to avoid the pull of project guns but I have fallen in love with a few that where spot on my collecting interest. I felt an obligation to rescue a few even tho I much prefer original condition. I realize that they will never be equal in value to original but try to do the minimal amount of restoration to maintain the character without completely wiping away it's history. Thankfully we have craftsman that also understand our desire to keep then as original as possible and put them into a shootable condition. However the more restoration the more the value is depreciated. I cringe when good shootable guns are fully restored and I believe the market agrees. If in the future the cost of original guns becomes unapproachable for all but a few then restored guns will become more sought after but we still live in a time when original condition guns are still affordable.

[allen newell]

Amen, let's end this here. Appreciate the many points of view and the very best to the Parker Collector and Restorer communities.