Great to be back

[Tom Flanigan]

I am gratified by the responses I received after I returned to the site after a long absence. It was great to hear from Kevin, Bill, Dean, Drew and others.
To respond to Kevin’s question, I am still living in Maryland but I plan to retire in the spring and then sell the house. I have a home in Pawling, NY, my home town. I plan to move back there full time when the Maryland house sells. That is where I’ll spend the rest of my years gunning my old childhood haunts.
I started back hunting in Pawling last year. All the old magic is still there and I hunt coverts that I hunted in my childhood and that my grandfather hunted before me. My hunting grounds are part of large estates and the 20 acres zoning in those areas have prevented some of the landowners from selling off parcels for development. There is still a lot of old blood in Pawling. My primary grouse coverts are still owned by the same family who owned the property when my grandfather hunted there starting in 1916. I remain close with that family. The land is selectively logged every 10 years which maintains the second growth and fox grapes that provides consistent gunning.
Below is a picture of some of my Pawling birds with a 16 bore high grade Smith. I’m not particularly partial to Smith guns but this one is a lightweight 16 bore and is cylinder in both barrels. An idiot cut the barrels from 30” to 26”, which worked out well for me. I hunt grouse with every bore gun including a 28 bore Holland, but day in and day out, there is nothing that can touch a 16 bore cylinder gun shooting an ounce of #9 shot. In my opinion, the 16 bore is the best for grouse when you are serious about getting the maximum number of birds for shots fired. I like playing with other guns but first fill the freezer with my 16 bore Smith.

[Dean Romig]

Tom, you posted that very picture here many, many years ago. I remember it so well because of its classic gunning composition. Great picture!

They say "You can never go back." but it appears you can and have done so!
I still hunt the same covers in Vermont I started hunting when I was ten or twelve and they still belong to the same family. I think somebody's smiling on you and me.

Welcome back!





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[Rich Anderson]

It's hard to beat an open choked 16 in the uplands. The meat gun a DHE 20 with 26 inch cyl/cyl chokes does come close:whistle:

[Kevin McCormack]

Tom, these are the kinds of posts I LIKE to read! Love the Pawling area; explored it over the years when the Vintagers was being held up at Orvis Sandanona; also a buddy from work and his Dad used to hunt up in that area every weekend when they escaped from NYC into the wild. So far as the best upland bird gun (at least for grouse & woodcock) ever devised, I think its the (Savage) Fox 16 ga. Skeet & Upland Game gun, 26' bbls. bored 'SK/CYL' (Savage nomenclature) and iMP. CYL. Mine mics out at .005" constriction in the right bbl. and .011 in the left. Also ideal on quail but a little sparse on choke for wild pheasants. P.S. - glad you are still in the area.

[Tom Flanigan]

I like the 16 bore best for grouse but a light 12 shooting an ounce of shot is good also as is a 20 bore with the 7/8 ounce load. The 28 does a remarkably good job with the 3/4 ounce load. I have used them all.

My grandfather liked his little 20 bore VH best and used it with 7/8 ounce of #10's. His former market shooting buddy killed grouse with a 10 bore loaded with #10's for the market but used a 12 bore damascus Colt after his market gunning days were over.

My grandfather's former market shooting partner, Dee Slocum, thought the little VH was a toy. He got it in trade for his furs but quickly sold it to my grandfather. Market hunters were usually big bore boys. Many of them considered the 12 a small bore.

Most of the old grouse gunners in the Pawling area favored #10 shot in light 12 bore guns. In those days, the mark of an amateur grouse gunner was high brass shells shooting larger shot. I remember one day I found a couple of high brass 20 bore 7 1/2 shells in my coverts. Some one snuck in. I complained to my grandfather and he said, "with those loads he's no partridge gunner (they always called grouse partridge), he won't kill any of your birds".

[Kevin McCormack]

Did they look anything like these?

[todd allen]

Apologies in advance for asking, but why number 10 shot? All of our birds eventually go to the kitchen , so why complicate the lead removal process by filling the bird full of microscopic shot?
The smallest shot size I use on any game bird is 7 1/2s, and that's on doves and quail.
Bigger shot equals less pellets, but dramatically better energy per pellet, and, for the pellets that actually remain in the bird, much easier to find,and remove.

[Bruce Day]

Welcome back Tom. It’s been too long.

[Tom Flanigan]

Wow Kevin....what great boxes. Thanks for sharing. The 20 bore box is the load my grandfather used and I love the 3 1/4 dram 1 1/4 oz box. The old pigeon load. I love the 3 1/4, 1 1/4 oz. loads. Thats all I use for turkey, ducks and geese.

I have been saving a magazine for you for years. It's a 1948 November issue of Sports Afield. I know you admired Robert Stack and this magazine has a Remington Shur Shot advertisment with a picture of "Bobby" Stack in the ad. Also, an article by Jimmy Robinson on the 1936 Skeet Champions featuring pictures of Robert Stack, Dick Shaughnessy and others. It also has drawing of Stack. It's a great old magazine from a different time and I want you to have it so I am going to send it to you.

I had always planned to give it to you at the weekly pigeon shoots but somehow I alwasy forgot to bring it. I hope you get a kick out of seeing Robert Stack as a boy, long before he actor career.

[Tom Flanigan]

Thanks Bruce. I well remember your 20 bore CHE damascus with the wood duck on the floor plate. That was one georgeous gun. I hope you still have it. It was a one of a kind with the woodduck on the floorplate.

[Tom Flanigan]

I'm glad you asked Todd. The areas I hunt grouse, the same areas that my grandfather and also Dee Slocum hunted for the market in the 1800's, is very tight cover. Shots over 20 yards were rare back in the day and still are. The old overgrown apple orchards have dissappeared but the fox grape vines are still there along with a lot of bay berry bushes. Perfect grouse feed and cover.

Grouse are not tenacious birds and small shot brings them down. Small shot was used because of the thickness of the cover. You hope for some of the pellets to get through to the bird. You rarely get a clear shot. Thus small shot equaled more birds in the bag. It was that simple. And it worked.

Rare was the bird with a lot of shot in it, even using 10's. Dee sold for the market in NY city and birds with a lot of shot in them would never be bought. I used to pick my birds and my grandmother then washed them out in the sink. Many times she said to me "you must have scared that bird to death" noting the absence of shot. Very rare was the bird with more than three #9 pellets in the body and many is the bird I took with only one shot in the body.

I only use #9's on grouse and would use 10's if I could buy that size shot. I don't use them on quail preferring 8's so I have less shot in the bird.

I agree with your opinion for most birds but it doesn't hold for gunning grouse in thick coverts. I appreciate your response to my post.

[Dean Romig]

I have a book on Skeet autographed by Dick Shaughnessy.
Wasn't he or his father a MD?





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[Bill Murphy]

???

[todd allen]

I'm glad you asked Todd. The areas I hunt grouse, the same areas that my grandfather and also Dee Slocum hunted for the market in the 1800's, is very tight cover. Shots over 20 yards were rare back in the day and still are. The old overgrown apple orchards have dissappeared but the fox grape vines are still there along with a lot of bay berry bushes. Perfect grouse feed and cover.

Grouse are not tenacious birds and small shot brings them down. Small shot was used because of the thickness of the cover. You hope for some of the pellets to get through to the bird. You rarely get a clear shot. Thus small shot equaled more birds in the bag. It was that simple. And it worked.

Rare was the bird with a lot of shot in it, even using 10's. Dee sold for the market in NY city and birds with a lot of shot in them would never be bought. I used to pick my birds and my grandmother then washed them out in the sink. Many times she said to me "you must have scared that bird to death" noting the absence of shot. Very rare was the bird with more than three #9 pellets in the body and many is the bird I took with only one shot in the body.

I only use #9's on grouse and would use 10's if I could buy that size shot. I don't use them on quail preferring 8's so I have less shot in the bird.

I agree with your opinion for most birds but it doesn't hold for gunning grouse in thick coverts. I appreciate your response to my post.
Thanks for the explanation, Tom. The vast majority of my bird hunting has been out West, with a little bit in the Northeast. I would agree that the Northeast grouse hunting is a whole lot different. What I've experienced, I would stay with the bigger shot myself, but I can't argue with what works for others. Wisdom has a way of transcending generations, and I won't argue with the wisdom of the old timers.

[Tom Flanigan]

Todd, I’ve hunted huns and sharp tails extensively in Saskatchewan and used 6's for them because some of the shots were long. They didn't hold well for a point and very often would fly before I walked past my dog. My setter Stoney learned not to crowd them but many of the shots were long. I used to use 1 1/8 loads from a lightweight 12 bore DHE and was careful not to shoot over 40 yds. Sharp tail grouse are a much different bird than the ruffed variety. And hunting in the west is a far different ballgame than hunting eastern thick grouse coverts. But its all great.

[todd allen]

Most of my ruffled grouse has been on my friends mountain ranch in Southern Idaho. One ounce of 7s, through 5, and 15k chokes does the trick. When I hunted N. East grouse, the cover was definitely a lot denser, and the shot window a lot shorter. I was carrying an H & H Royal, 12 bore @ 6lbs 5 oz, with 30" bbl. Most of the hunt involved holding the gun vertical by the wrist, with my right hand, and moving saplings with my left. At the end of the day, I was wishing for lighter, and shorter. Maybe a 20 gauge Trojan, with bbls cut to 25". I don't know.
I have to take my hat off to you folks who hunt these types habitats on a regular basis.

[Milt Fitterman]

Welcome back Tom. Nice to hear from you again. Was your old hobby black and white barrel restoration?
Milt

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Todd, I dislike #9 shot for grouse, as it does put alot of bb's inthe meat. I shot #9 skeet loads thru my cyl/cyl VHE 20 one year, totally ruined alot of birds, and vowed never to use it again except on clays. I do like #7's as it does kill well. Grouse are not hard to kill, but I bet alot of lightly hit birds fly off without us realizing they are hit.
Tom, sounds like you have alot of good friends here happy to have you back--looking forward to more of your posts

[Bill Murphy]

Yeah, I'm glad Tom is back. As I recall, he is the only witness to my 45 yard kill on a quail with my Parker 28 gauge. Again, as I recall, I took a desperation shot on a bobwhite that was escaping behind a brush pile after we had emptied our guns at the other birds. The shot was a good 45 yards or more and both Tom and I agreed that we were through with that rise and we should continue hunting. However, just on a whim, I sent my Wirehair, Eva, on a long fetch toward the brush pile. We were both a bit astounded when Eva came out from behind the brush pile holding a dead bobwhite in her mouth. Tom was a very generous training partner when Eva was a pup, although she was a bit of a handful on a lead. He even brought birds out to the field for her. However, the day of the great shot, she was not on a lead and the birds were not planted. I sincerely hope that I am correct in identifying Tom as my partner that day. Jeff Mulliken would be the only other possibility and I don't remember ever carrying a gun when Jeff was my training companion.

[Tom Flanigan]

I remember it well Bill. I also remember the time you or I shot a bird we thought we missed. We marked it down and Stoney went on point. We walked past him kicking the brush to no avail. You looked back at Stoney and spotted the bird almost under his nose laying belly up. We had a lot of fun. I was saddened to hear of Eva's passing.

[Tom Flanigan]

Harold….I appreciate your response. We all want to kill quickly and cleanly. To an extent, all things being equal, the type of cover we hunt has a role in what shot size we choose. My coverts are very thick where clear shots are not the norm.

I have also hunted grouse in Saskatchewan which is a lot different from hunting in my home coverts in the east. The Saskatchewan ruffed grouse were in the wooded areas adjacent to the fields where I hunted sharp tails and huns. The cover was more open and the birds were not concentrated like they are in my home coverts. Relatively open, longer shots were the norm and I would guess that I had to walk about a mile for each flush. Very different grouse hunting. I used my sharp tail and hun load of 1 1/8 oz. of #6’s in a light 12 bore.

My tutelage was from my grandfather who was an old time grouse hunter and he learned by gunning with a former market gunner who shot grouse for the New York City market. There were many old grouse hunters in Pawling, NY that were still alive when I started hunting, although none of them still gunned. And to a man, they all swore by 10’s with just a few using 9’s. If I’m not mistaken, the poet laureate of grouse hunting, Burt Spiller, used 9’s for grouse in his VH 20 bore.

I loved talking grouse hunting with those old gunners. I remember them all as if it were yesterday. There were some real characters but they accounted for a lot of grouse in their day. And if modesty permits me to say, they were impressed with the numbers of birds I was taking and considered me one of their grouse gunning tribe. High complement for a young boy.

Back in those days when I hunted many days a week, I was killing over 50 birds a season. I carried an envelope in my pocket and I plucked a tail feather from each bird so that I could tally up at the end of the year. In more recent years, my career has allowed me to hunt only the weekends. Even so, I often topped 30 birds in a good season.

Since the second year of grouse gunning, I have never hunted without a good bird dog. I am confident that I have not lost many birds that have flown away after being hit. I’ve never come across old shot in any of my birds and I trusted my dog to eventually find any hit bird as we hunted on. They have found a few over the years but I can count them on one hand.

So it’s all good. We each have our preferences and opinions and I respect yours.

[Ted Hicks]

Hello Mr. Flanigan - I am relatively new to the forums here but I'm a fellow New York grouse hunter. Most of my experience over the past 40 years has been in the Adirondacks with stints up in Maine, Vermont and Saratoga County area of New York. Our strategy was to start out with #8 shot and then switch to 7 1/2s once the woodcock were gone. I would have used #9 shot in the early season but those shells were hard to find and I did not reload my own. I don't recall ever seeing commercially made #10 shotgun ammo locally, although I am sure it was available. Nowadays, I just don't see it in stores.

Grouse in the Adirondacks face a long and cold winter. They are a little larger (it seemed to me) and their feathers would get thick in the late season. The woods were opened up more allowing for some longer shots and the need to get through thick feathers. Some guys even use #6 shot.

Anyway, welcome back and good luck with your future hunting in Pawling!

[Rich Anderson]

I habitually use 8's for Grouse esp in the right barrel as the season wears on the left tube will get 7's or 71/2. I almost never use a load heavier than 7/8oz in both the 16's and 20's the 28's are obviously less and while I'm no fan of a 12, a Purdey light game gun caught my attention a while back. It's a tad over 6lbs and the 27 inch barrels are choked .004 and .008 and it's just about perfect. The only shells iv'e used are RST 2" paper and 3/4oz of 7's or 8's.

A good dog can make a bad shot become a great one. I have had the dog retrieve grouse and pheasants that I didn't think were hit or not hit hard enough and would have been lost to coyote bait. IMHO bird hunting with out a dog is just a walk in the woods with a gun.

Grouse season is a short ten months away. It will be a special October as it will be Ike's first full year in the uplands. I'm thinking he will need a gun in his honor and it should be a 16 with 26 inch barrels and open chokes:whistle:

Ted RST makes a shell with #10 shot. They worked fine on woodcock and quail but hunting in the thick cover of the Upper Peninsula and never knowing what's at the end of a point be it grouse or woodcock I lean towards a larger shot size.

[Kevin McCormack]

I can vouch for the effectiveness of RST's #10 shot loads for woodcock, especially the spreaders. I began using them the season before last and the patterning is most impressive. I shot them (spreaders) first out of a 28" Fox AE 20 ga. choked M & F with 2 1/2" chambers to open up the patterns, then shot the standard 2 3/4" regular (non-spreader) loads out of my Fox Skeet & Upland Game Gun, using # 7 1/2 in the CYL barrel and #6s in the IC bbl. for grouse. Both proved to be great combinations.

[Dean Romig]

Rich, I count six full months til the first of October.

I use 7/8 oz. of #8 in the early season in my 16 gauge grouse and woodcock guns and 3/4 oz. in my 20 gauge grouse & woodcock guns and 5/8 oz. in my 28 gauge grouse & woodcock guns.

When the leaves are down I go to 7 1/2 shot in the same oz. loads.





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[Tom Flanigan]

Boy its good go hear from you Milt. Yes, I did black and white Damascus years ago. I'm back doing my personal guns and have 4 barrels in process now.