opening chokes changing value

[Daniel G Rainey]

When you find a Parker in the grade you want that fits you, but the way the gun is choked is not what you need for the type of hunting you are buying the gun for. Does opening up the chokes reduce value ? Have tried spreader loads once and was not pleased.

[Reggie Bishop]

It does if I am buying, but not if I am selling! :)

Jokes aside, personally it decreases the guns value to me, but would not completely turn me away if I were buying it to shoot.

[Dean Romig]

If it is a high condition gun in otherwise unaltered condition opening the chokes may have a negative effect on the value of the gun. Especially if it is not done properly. It's not a simple matter of reaming the muzzle several thousandths. Proper and correct choke work on these old Parkers which sometimes have tapers as long as 6" should always be done from the breech to ensure the correct continuation of the choke taper.

Spreader loads generally give you only one less level of choke, e.g., spreader loads will give a full choke barrel a MOD pattern.

What are the chokes in your gun Daniel?





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[John Allen]

I agree with Dean.It is better to leave any high condition "collector" gun unaltered.However,properly opened chokes on a gun that has a little honest wear or has already been altered,(a pad etc.),will not hurt the value.In fact opening the choke to a usable constriction may add value to a shooter.

[Kirk Potter]

It makes me wonder how many guns over the years have had the chokes opened and no one knows. Not every research letter mentions chokes.

I think to some people it could actually effect the value positively depending on the gun. I’d personally be willing to pay a bit more for a 0 frame 16 IC/MOD than the same gun F/F.

[charlie cleveland]

tp me i would not alter the gun if the chokes were not what i liked i would find chokes i liked and buy it....plenty of open choked guns out there....i bet the fello next door has one now....charlie

[Brian Dudley]

If you do a search on this topic, you will find a number of other threads where the same question has been asked. I am sure the answers to those would apply to yours as well.

[Dean Romig]

I agree with Dean.It is better to leave any high condition "collector" gun unaltered.However,properly opened chokes on a gun that has a little honest wear or has already been altered,(a pad etc.),will not hurt the value.In fact opening the choke to a usable constriction may add value to a shooter.


My 28 gauge 26" VHE came to me with Full/Full chokes and with plastic shot collars I was missing a lot of targets so I had the chokes opened to Skeet 1 and Skeet 2 (.008 and .015). It now produces very effective patterns to about 30 yards. Doing so sure added value for me.





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[Rich Anderson]

At the end of the day it's your gun and your the guy using it. I'm in agreement if it's a high condition gun I'd leave the chokes alone. I've done it once on a GH 16 0 frame and was very pleased with the results. I bought a DHE 12 with 32 inch barrels that someone opened the right barrel to IC for shooting ducks coming into decoys. IMHO long barrels equate to tight chokes and I sold the gun and bought an unaltered pigeon gun with F/F chokes.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I have had chokes opened up on avg condition guns that I was buying to hunt with, in my case that means generally grouse and woodcock. My VH 16 and Sterlingworth 16 were both opened to IC/IC from their original M/F chokes. A friend had an IC 16 ga reamer, so that's how they ended up. Shot alot of birds with those guns, and no regrets. I wouldnt open up a high quality or upper grade gun--I'd just shoot as is,, with spreaders perhaps. I have a very nice VH 20 and a DHE 16 that luckily were choked cyl/m as ordred--I would not have changed those guns.
Opening chokes is a hell of a lot better than cutting barrells --I shoot a VHE 20 and GH 16 that unfortunately were wacked down to 26.5" from 28-- great shooters however.

[edgarspencer]

Horses For Courses. One man's trash, is another man's treasure. It's that simple. Pick the gun for the cover and game. I've never shortened a barrel, or opened one up. I just wait for the right one to come along if I didn't yet have it. NO one wanted the cut barrel DHE 20 at Cabelas. The gun room manager thought he had a live one when I offered $2800 and he jumped at it. It's Cylinder and cylinder, 24", and If you hunt the north woods of Maine, you couldn't ask for a better gun.

[CraigThompson]

Of course to each his own . But for my own personal use I leave them alone .

[Mike Franzen]

What’s the thinking on having interchangeable choke tubes installed in a shooter? Anyone tried that?

[Jim DiSpagno]

JMHO but it totally ruins the originality of a Parker because it was never an option.

[Bill Anderson]

Don't mess with originality, wait to buy the gun you are looking for. There have been way too many guns modified (opened chokes & such) already. Most guns that are modified by buyers who say "this is my gun, I'll do what I want", most likely end up only owning it 3 to 5 years before they put it up for sale.

Bill

[Randy G Roberts]

Don't mess with originality, wait to buy the gun you are looking for. There have been way too many guns modified (opened chokes & such) already. Most guns that are modified by buyers who say "this is my gun, I'll do what I want", most likely end up only owning it 3 to 5 years before they put it up for sale.

Bill

I would agree with that as being true most of the time but I can site an example to the contrary. I wanted a Model 21 Trap 32" VR for sporting clays as my go to gun. I bought one in 2009, sent it to Pauline Muerrle who executed a #5 engraving pattern on it, sent it to Briley for a set of thin walls. By my reasonably accurate count I am definitely north of 40,000 rounds and will never part with it. I have one other gun that I have added tubes to and one other that I had the chokes opened on. Each one has worked for me and I have no regrets. I do find as the years go by I seem to relish the idea of altering guns less and less. Probably due in part to the fat that I do not mind shooting tight chokes at all. Do what works for you.

[Bill Murphy]

There must be a bunch of us who are earning their living by shooting a shotgun, judging by the number who are raping their shotguns in the interest of hitting that "one additional bird". Do you guys keep a record of the additional money you win when shooting a raped gun compared to the additional money you spent screwing it up? In my experience, the gunsmithing costs much more than the additional money won with these guns. Why does every gun purchased have to be a "quail gun"? Don't we already own a few or more quail guns? I will refrain from using the old line, "Learn to shoot.".

[Rich Anderson]

What’s the thinking on having interchangeable choke tubes installed in a shooter? Anyone tried that?
Oh Hell No!!!:eek:

[Phillip Carr]

Some guns are made to be hunted with. If you have a gun that fits you well but lets say is full and full and you like chasing wild birds behind your dogs.
Why not get it choked properly for the situation.
I would never consider doing that to a high condition gun, but for the guy that has a great shooter of a Parker why not?
Depending on a persons situation. Why buy another gun? I will caviot that with you need a professional with a good reputation to do the choke work.
A proffesional like Dean Harris that owns SKEETS has the tooling and the skill to do the job ptoperly. I know there are alsoa few others, but there are plenty of hacks.

Personally i hate to see a vintage SXS with ckoke tubes.

[Dean Romig]

There must be a bunch of us who are earning their living by shooting a shotgun, judging by the number who are raping their shotguns in the interest of hitting that "one additional bird". Do you guys keep a record of the additional money you win when shooting a raped gun compared to the additional money you spent screwing it up? In my experience, the gunsmithing costs much more than the additional money won with these guns. Why does every gun purchased have to be a "quail gun"? Don't we already own a few or more quail guns? I will refrain from using the old line, "Learn to shoot.".


With eyes that seem to be getting worse as I age and with muscles and joints that are working overtime to keep me out of the covers and at home where I can be comfortable, I don't feel awful guilty about "raping" MY little VHE 28 so I can pretend I'm a better shot than I really am and can bring home a couple of grouse and a woodcock or two to make my walk in the woods a little more worthwhile for both myself and Gracie.





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[Bill Murphy]

The guy with the best reputation for messing with shotgun barrels has a bunch of anecdotes about screwing up barrels in our forum files and other forum files. Even those who pretend to know what they are doing put out more than their share of disasters. Sorry, not for me.

[Dean Romig]

Umm... does he use a torch to obtain funny-looking 'case colors' too?






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[Karl Ferguson]

Dean, I also raped my Parker Repro 28 Ga 28" barrels many years ago. The unrealistic factory tight chokes were usless for any kind of hunting that I do and the patterns were horrible. I sent the barrels to Kirk Merrington and now at .010 & .020 the gun throws excellent patterns.

When I sell this gun some day I'm willing to bet the new owner will appreciate the new chokes just as much as I do.

[John Dallas]

I recently handled a CSMC M21 with gold inlays of the owner's fat Jack Russell terriers. Don't know if the terriers were, in fact, that fat, or whether it was a poor inlay job, but what sealed the "Heck No" deal for me was the screw in chokes

[Russell E. Cleary]

Yes, this an old topic, widely-covered in many retrievable threads. But, it is worth bringing back for discussion as it has enduring relevance as to why we bother to seek out vintage guns to collect and shoot, when there are many traditionally-styled guns being produced today with modern stock dimensions and multiple choke choices, all of which can offer an edge in hitting wild or clay birds.

To answer the original question: For me, opening chokes reduces monetary value, while it surely can enhance other values, utility being one.

I happen to be one consumer who was willing to pay a higher price for a factory open-choked 16-gauge, 0-framed VH. It is not a high-grade or high-condition piece; in fact, it had been restored. But, for me there is a significant distinction between restored and altered (surely another debate subject).

I could have saved a lot of money if I had just sent out my father’s full-choked 16-gauge, 1-framed VH for opening. It just meant a lot to me to keep that one original and buy another -- a gun that left Meriden in 1907 essentially as it was represented to me as being: "a New England bird gun”, cylinder and modified.

[William Davis]

A other factor in value is the chance of poor choke opening work. Look at enough SXS muzzles you will see many out of round alterations. Running a reamer it’s critical everything is concentric . Problem with concentric on a hand regulated SXS barrel is they were bent to regulate. Reamer set up on the bend is not going to run true.

A very few gunsmith will set the job up carefully and refuse to alter if it is risky. Most are low price fast turn with a high percentage chance of out of round .

Want to see a high risk alteration google “Larry Potterfield open chokes” good utube on how not to do it. Did not indicate the tool before he cut, relied on the bushings to index the reamer.

William

[Tom Flanigan]

Long barrels usually mean tight chokes but not always. I once owned a CE grade 26" fox 20 bore with both barrels full choke. If I am not mistaken, Bill Murphy owned beautiful GH small bore with 26" full choke in both damascus barrels.

I sold the Fox because I bought if for grouse hunting and found the full chokes when I measured the constriction. I didn't have the chokes opened because I don't believe in opening chokes on vintage guns. To each his own, but my personal preference is to leave them alone.

[Tom Flanigan]

I don't consider changing chokes in a repro to be raping. It is not an original Parker so I would do what I wanted with the chokes. But my thoughts are that the chokes on vintage guns should be left alone. You can't put the metal back and the gun is changed forever. I used to get good IC performance (I pattern my guns) from the old Remington post wads loaded to a bit higher pressure. The higher pressure seemed to help. I'm not talking very high pressure but in the 10,000 range.

[Kevin McCormack]

Hey Tom, where ya been? Haven't seen you in about a hundred years! Are you still in MD? If not, where?

[Jeff Higgins]

On a high condition unmolested gun I would not open the chokes. But if the gun is not original in some other way why not. There are a awful lot of straight gripped guns floating around that did not leave the factory that way. What difference would it make to open the chokes on that gun. Is it ok to bend a stock to more modern dimensions? Or is that raping it?

[Bill Murphy]

I am also happy that Tom Flanigan is back with us and would like to hear more from him. His comment about Parker Repros is very pertinent. The chokes in those guns is well above the norm and should be addressed by the owners if they choose to shoot them. I'm not drilling mine out, but I understand why others would like to do so.

[Karl Ferguson]

When researching the idea of opening up my chokes I'm not positive but I thought I read that Bill said his Parker Repro 28 full choked barrel was .039 I remember thinking at that time that the .039 must have been a typo.

After getting my barrels measured they were .027 & .038 before Kirk opened them up.

[Dave Erickson]

Timely discussion as I consider a lovely VH 16's F&F chokes. The two thoughts that are driving my decision to leave the chokes alone are, 1. I have plenty of other more open-choked shotguns. 2. This thing has made it 105 years intact and I can't bring myself to alter the original chokes. The gun, even though it's not a high-value collector piece, still seems "greater" than I am, or at least greater my whims.

[Dean Romig]

I think you're on the right track Dave. If you have plenty of others...





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[Bill Murphy]

Yup, Karl, my left barrel has 39/1000s of constriction. I have never shot a pattern, but it should be impressive. I once sold a Merkel 12 gauge with over 50/1000s of constriction.

[John Dallas]

My Sterly is .044 in each tube

[Rich Anderson]

My DH live bird gun is .045 in each barrel and when you center a target it's just dust and that makes me smile. I have a Fox CE with 32 inch barrels and it's choked similarly but not quite as the Parker.

[Dave Erickson]

My 16 ga. VH is around .029” in both barrels. It was supposedly owned by a Nebraska farmer. Makes me wonder what shots those F&F barrels pulled off. I often wonder how it was used.

[Kevin McCormack]

.029 x 2 + Nebraska + corn = Pheasant Gun

[Steve McCarty]

Don't mess with originality, wait to buy the gun you are looking for. There have been way too many guns modified (opened chokes & such) already. Most guns that are modified by buyers who say "this is my gun, I'll do what I want", most likely end up only owning it 3 to 5 years before they put it up for sale.

Bill

For what it's worth, I bought for cheap a well used Spanish 12 gauge with lots of engraving, F/and very F. The seller said the case, which was trashed, was worth more than the gun. I spent too much to have the barrels blacked and opened the chokes to open and a little more open. Someone had shot steel thru those half century old tubes and there was a jelly bean sized bulge in one barrel which I had removed. Refinished the stock. Shoots fine now and she is light as a feather. She is actually pretty, if you need glasses and left them home.

I also have a very nice original condition GH F/F and I won't touch the chokes. I use spreaders and hope for the best. But that old Spanish gun is my go to shooter.

[Steve McCarty]

Oh Hell No!!!:eek:

I have installed choke tubes in old single barrel guns, but never in a nice double. I put some in a pre-war Ithaca Model 37 so I could shoot steel thru it and maybe skeet.

I'd love to have a Parker 16 with open chokes. I thinking about buying an old Remington 16, they are very Parker like and cost much less.