32" vs 30"

[David Dwyer]

I am looking at a 32" VHE 20ga and trying to determine how much value a 32" barrel adds over a 30" one. I know how difficult it is to find a nice 30" 20 ga but have never purchased a 32" . Any ideas???
David

[Dean Romig]

All things being equal David, I would be willing to pay a good 25% premium over 30" barrels.

I don't know if I indicated this to Morris last year when I said to him "Name your price."

He wouldn't - he didn't - and as far as I know he still owns it.




.

[David Dwyer]

Thanks Dean. This is not Morris's gun but one that has been "in the closet " for 20+ years

[Randy G Roberts]

David I have seen 3 32" 20 gauge VHE guns in the last year that sold. Two of them were identical (PG,DT,AS,SFE). One had a DHBP,the other a replacement rubber pad. Both had seen use and had CC in protected areas only but were solid guns. One sold for 5K,asking price on the other was 5K and it sold (quickly),not sure what for. The 3rd was was sold on this site, asking price was $3,200, had a pinned stock and it sold quickly. You can search the forum and find that one easily. I know the first two referenced still had original chokes and chambers with good bores. Hope that helps a little...

[Reggie Bishop]

Those prices seem a little less than I would have expected.

[David Dwyer]

Thanks for that info.
Reggie, me too, but condition , condition, condition
!

[scott kittredge]

I looked for a long time to fine one (8 years) . like Dean said I would pay top dollar . I missed out on a few so I didn't try to get a deal on it. I am glad I bought it when I did because when I hung up the phone the dealer said another guy called and wanted it too. mine is a VHE 32 in F/imp mod with nice screws and wood.
scott

[Randy G Roberts]

Thanks for that info.
Reggie, me too, but condition , condition, condition
!

That's correct. Condition is key here.

[Kevin McCormack]

Thanks for that info.
Reggie, me too, but condition , condition, condition
!

The 32-incher that sold recently was also a totally redone gun. FWIW

[Bruce Day]

1926 DHE 20/32. Original.

[Bruce Day]

Xxxxx

[Dean Romig]

That's wonderful Bruce. Thanks for sharing.





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[Jay Gardner]

It would take a lot more than $5k to make me part with my 1-frame, 20/32 VHE, straight stock DHBP. The case colors are not original but I don’t care.

[Jay Gardner]

Bruce, once again you steal the show. Gawd, that’s a magnificent gun.

[Dave Noreen]

Parker Bros. seem to have made more 32-inch 20-gauges then other makers. Possibly DuBray taking orders for guns for California duck club members pushed this. The record tabulations in The Parker Story show 221 VH-/VHE-Grades, six PH-/PHE-Grades, 43 GH-/GHE-Grade, 171 DH-/DHE-Grades, 13 CH-/CHE-Grades, 21 BH-/BHE-Grades (one of these was Clark Gable's), one AH-/AHE-Grade, six AAH-/AAHE-Grades and four A1-Specials. On top of these, there are guns like my GH-Grade that started life as a 2-frame 12-gauge but later went back to Meriden for a set of 32-inch, 3-inch chambered, 20-gauge barrels. One year at The Vintage Cup at Orvis Sandanona, when Kevin McCormack and I were doing the PGCA booth, we had a display that included 0-, 1-, and 2-frame 32-inch 20-gauges.

I have searched the A.H. Fox production records and only found 48 regular frame graded 20-gauges with 32-inch barrels, add that 26 of the sixty some HE-Grade Super-Fox 20-gauges have 32-inch barrels and still only 74 compared to all those Parkers.

[Craig Larter]

Just to add to Dave's post, only 4 CE Foxes were made in 20ga with 32 inch barrels. One of these walked in to our booth at the Southern a couple of years back.

[David Dwyer]

Bruce
Fantastic Parker, but did not address the question?
David

[Bill Murphy]

I have owned two 20 gauge 32" VH #2 frame guns. I would pay a bunch to get #153,333 back. In my opinion, a 32" gun should sell for at least a 25% premium, more than that in the V grade category.

[Randy G Roberts]

It would take a lot more than $5k to make me part with my 1-frame, 20/32 VHE, straight stock DHBP. The case colors are not original but I don’t care.

I tend to agree with that as well. I forgot to mention in the first post where I cited those numbers that the V grade that sold for 5K was an O frame gun of 1919 vintage that weighs 6-11 oz. As you might have guessed it's in my safe. I believe the other one I referenced that was not sold here was also an O frame gun.

[Kevin McCormack]

Researcher wrote:

I have searched the A.H. Fox production records and only found 48 regular frame graded 20-gauges with 32-inch barrels, add that 26 of the sixty some HE-Grade Super-Fox 20-gauges have 32-inch barrels and still only 74 compared to all those Parkers.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the breakdown of the Fox 20 gauges, Dave. Yes they are quite rare compared to other makers. I will have an AE 32-incher in my display at the MACA show in Timonium this weekend.

[MARK KIRCHER]

I was involved in a bidding war on Gunbroker a few years back for

1920 20 bore GH -0 frame-straight grip - DT- SFE - 32" "191XXX.

At auctions end I was high bidder at $7,800 If I remember correctly. I was able to renegotiate down to the $6500 range as the gun had a few issues not described in the listing. If pressed, I would have accepted it at the bid price as opposed to returning it. This gun was WELL Used but honest, save some poor stock touch up work.

I would have bought the pinned stock V grade gun that sold for $3200 on this board in a minute had I seen it in time.

The 25% premium is a good number to work with in my opinion. Higher condition guns perhaps even more.

[Bill Murphy]

Decades ago, I paid $450 for my old #2 frame 32" 20, serial number 153,333 at Atlas Sporting Goods in Bailey's Crossroads, Virginia. At the time, a normal 26" or 28" 20 gauge VH would probably have sold for $225. I would like to find that gun and purchase it today. Does that anecdote add anything to our conversation?

[Bruce Day]

Bruce
Fantastic Parker, but did not address the question?
David


Value is up to the person. I have 20’s in 32, 30, 26 and 24. The 32 works for me only for trap shooting and certainly not in the field. To me a 32 is not worth more than a 30 but I know it’s a big deal to many people.

[scott kittredge]

I love shooting my 32 in. ,20, it's a great crow and duck gun, I shot a crow with it last sat. in Maine, and when the NH season opens this fri, I hope to shoot a lot more of them with it.:)
scott

[Brett Souder]

Bruce,
Why no 28" barrels?

[Bruce Day]

The fellows back east have bought them all. Maybe I can find one with chopped barrels.

[Rich Anderson]

I have two Parker 20's with 30 inch barrels, one a GH Damascus (not many of these produced) that has been completely redone by Turnbull. I purchased it several years ago from a member and a DHE with all the options and 90% case color. The DHE is easily a 5 figure gun. Then there is the 32 inch BHE with factory 3 inch chambers and a straight grip (the DHE is a straight grip as well) which IMHO is a great target gun and perhaps useful in a Dove field or duck blind.

At the end of the day would I pay more for those extra 2 inches? I guess it would have to depend on the gun. If the BHE wasn't a 32 inch gun I'd have probably passed on it.

[Alfred Greeson]

Thanks to everyone for all the great pics and discussion. Everyone talks and shows and then Bruce trumps em all. Thanks Bruce for sharing, you have some great Parkers.

[John Allen]

When appraising a 32" 20 gauge,I have found the 32" gun will sell for double the retail price of an equal condition 26" or 28" gun.A 30" 20 gauge will bring at least a 50% premium.I have found that holds true with other American doubles as well.That was not true even 25 years ago when 26" guns brought a premium.

[David Dwyer]

I searched for 5 years for an all original, good condition(50% CC) , 30 " straight grip 20ga. A good friend, Paul Dorsa, finally took pity on me and sold me his VHE. Based on what I paid for the 30" SS that would put a 32" at $ 8500. John???
David

[John Allen]

You already have someone one this thread who bid $7800 for one with issues.I saw a high condition 32" VHE sell at Tulsa last year for $10500.A 32" will bring double the price that a 26" or 28" if the condition is equal.

[David Dwyer]

John
Thank you!! I was told my 30" VHE 20ga, 60-65 % CC gun was worth $8500-$9000 but did not quite believe it. Sorry guys-it is not available!
David

[Reggie Bishop]

John that is some good information! Thanks for your input.

[Rich Anderson]

I need to contact a friend of mine who offered me a two barrel 20ga VHE 28 and 32 no safety for $4500. It had a trigger issue he wanted to get resolved before selling.

I would value my high condition DHE 30 inch 20 with all the options very close to my BHE 32 inch 20.

[David Dwyer]

Rich
condition, condition & condition. I listened to one of our top collectors who focuses on "as new" Parkers explain that the value of a 95% gun and a 98% gun was a factor of 2X.
David

[Rich Anderson]

David I couldn't agree more. Condition is the key to the collector. I was admonished by some of the "collectors" for taking my DHE 20 hunting and to use on the clays course as the condition would diminish with use. My reply was "It's the next guys problem and when that happens I'll be dead and won't care"

[MARK KIRCHER]

While high condition is key for some. I focus on guns in the "sweet spot" - Honest, cared for but used to the point I will not worry when I add a mar to them. If I buy a gun... its going hunting.

[Todd Poer]

[QUOTE=David Dwyer;238321]Rich
condition, condition & condition. I listened to one of our top collectors who focuses on "as new" Parkers explain that the value of a 95% gun and a 98% gun was a factor of 2X.
David[/Q

Wow. I find that amazing based on that narrow a spread based on subjectivity of rating a condition. If demonstrated correctly the math suggests a $10K 95% judged gun compared to same gun, all else being equal, judged at 98% is worth $20k. In reverse that is saying a gun that might be worth $20k depreciates 50% based on a 3% variation in top end quality/condition gun.

That's just a hard one to reconcile. Know vagaries of the market place are not that specific, but still that is a massive spread. Granted that is maybe an off the cuff statement and don't doubt its veracity but there must be other factors. I know some collectors that could care less what so called market value is, they want what they want and a premium price is just an inconvenient hurdle overcome by an excess cash and want problem. There must be some other lump sum considerations as well.

[Bill Murphy]

Mark's coining of a new descriptive phrase for our favorite 80% to 90% guns will be helpful to those selling such guns. "The Sweet Spot" is exactly what most of us covet. Thanks, Mark. "For Sale, VHE 20 gauge, 28", all original. Condition is in the SWEET SPOT with 50% case colors, 95% barrel blue, 30% blue on trigger guard, most original stock finish with original dog's head buttplate. Bore dimensions as made, .615 with chokes .006 and .012. $XXX contact XXXX."

[Randy G Roberts]

As a big fan of long barrels on Amercan SxS's I have found this thread to be quite interesting and have enjoyed it immensely. Sort of makes me want to start a new thread, 32" vs 34", hmmmmmmm....

[Dean Romig]

Todd, you would need to know this "collector of 'as new' guns" before denigrating his uncontested experience in the field of rating a gun's condition. He is probably without peer.





.

[MARK KIRCHER]

Here are a couple shots of my "sweet spot" J.A. HANNAH gun courtesy of Steve C.
1913 1 Frame 32" 20 bore DHE
I embrace the scars!

[Reggie Bishop]

Mark that is a really nice 20!

[Dean Romig]

What a dandy duck gun!!





.

[Todd Poer]

Todd, you would need to know this "collector of 'as new' guns" before denigrating his uncontested experience in the field of rating a gun's condition. He is probably without peer.





.
Was not denigrating the statement nor impugning the nameless collector. Sure they know their stuff, was just amazed by it on such a narrow marginal difference as described by the suggested guideline. If doing the math is perceived as a slight to someones sensibilities, then I apologize.

I am also amazed on some prices people pay for collector cars. How many times do you hear about some rare piece sold at record price at Sothebys and the pre-auction estimates are blown away. Its probably a pretty good description of a niche market of limited participants that plays at tip top end of values that might not have a ceiling.

It just goes to show that there is range of values on things depending on perspective. Mentality of some collectors/investors is a no holds barred wrestling match on price as opposed to someone that is maybe a user/investor more grounded to market. Two different mentalities with different motivations. My point is that it just hard to reconcile between the two approaches. They are two distinct markets and was amazed by the metric as presented.

[Brett Souder]

All that I have learned about collecting anything is that the value of an item is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it, and that only takes one person to shell out the cash and when he sells the item it could be for a loss or a profit.
-Brett

[Bruce Day]

The best way to learn about Parkers is to become a PGCA member, read the Parker Pages, obtain and study The Parker Story and attend Parker meetings. After several years of listening and asking questions a person starts to have some credibility in Parker knowledge .

[Todd Poer]

All that I have learned about collecting anything is that the value of an item is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it, and that only takes one person to shell out the cash and when he sells the item it could be for a loss or a profit.
-Brett

There is truth in that. Market transactions are typically defined as prudent actions of well informed buyers and sellers acting in their best interest. Throw in an element of passion into that definition/discussion and things get spun off into an alternate reality of a different market and participants. I think that is what amazed me. Some collect guns they cherish to shoot, others collect just to cherish.

Dare say we are all hunters on this site. I am passionate about duck hunting just as much as the the next avid duck hunter, but if you calculated all the money spent in pursuit on a cost per duck harvested.... Do yourself a favor and don't. Wife is a CPA got shown that once.

[David Dwyer]

Todd
I also was amazed but his estimate of value between 95% and 98% but have immense respect for his opinion as that is the area he plays in.
Rich
You are a braver man than I am! I took a $20K Italian 28ga gun shooting, tripped and snapped the stock. That cost me $10,000 . Th reason I am selling some guns is I do not shoot them because of their high condition ,as with the CHE 12 LBG I just listed
David

[Rich Anderson]

David I like to use them albeit carefully. I have had NIB guns before and sold them. In January while riding in the hunting buggy during our quail hunt Gunner's Gun suffered a deep scratch from a latch on the gun box. It really pissed me off but as soon as I got home it went to the smith and he made it good as new.
A couple of years ago I took a bad spill in the grouse woods with a CHE 20. According to TPS it's one of eight produced with 26 inch Damascus barrels. I bent my glasses and had a bruise on my arm from wrist to elbow but the gun didn't get hurt.

I'll have a couple of high condition guns to shoot at Drakes. Why save them for the next guy? Some heir might get less for them but ask me if I care:whistle:

[Todd Poer]

Todd
I also was amazed but his estimate of value between 95% and 98% but have immense respect for his opinion as that is the area he plays in.


The gentlemen you and Dean are referring to sounds like an expert's, expert when it comes to that "as new" niche market. I am sure in parlance of that arena there are distinct differences that make up a fine line between a 95% to 98% rated condition that has been alluded to. What sounds like something so slight or subtle of a difference to me seems to produces a big swing in pricing/value, and that is what fascinates me and if it is a consistent rule of thumb or an anomaly. I guess it depends if your a buyer or seller regarding your posture on a particular item. I am sure that multiplier could change as well depending on someone's wants, resources and needs.

Anyway a great discussion and learned something. One of my favorite quotes comes from an orthopedic surgeon that even in his 70's is at the top his game and cutting edge when it comes to sports injuries and treating them. All the pro athletes that have issues somehow make their way to see him when they have challenging issues. Instead of slowing down he is trying to expand the practice. When asked why he just said "If you aren't green, you're not growing"

[Eric Eis]

David I like to use them albeit carefully. I have had NIB guns before and sold them. In January while riding in the hunting buggy during our quail hunt Gunner's Gun suffered a deep scratch from a latch on the gun box. It really pissed me off but as soon as I got home it went to the smith and he made it good as new.
A couple of years ago I took a bad spill in the grouse woods with a CHE 20. According to TPS it's one of eight produced with 26 inch Damascus barrels. I bent my glasses and had a bruise on my arm from wrist to elbow but the gun didn't get hurt.

I'll have a couple of high condition guns to shoot at Drakes. Why save them for the next guy? Some heir might get less for them but ask me if I care:whistle:

Dave I was with Rich when he pulled Gunners gun out from the gun box, I must say he handled it very well... My Holland 28 was on the inside of that box so I was lucky (should have played the lotto ! ) But I hunted with Holland 28 for two days and enjoyed every minute of it. It's my most expensive gun but if I can't shoot it then I don't need it and that was the reason why I sold my collection of D grades (8ga through 410) that were 95% or better condition guns, as they just sat on the wall and I enjoyed them and I enjoyed the ten year hunt for them, but I couldn't shoot them so off they went to another collector who got to enjoy them.

[Alfred Greeson]

I doubt I will ever have to worry about whether to use or not use my nib Parker. But, I really enjoy what I have. I recently acquired another 20 Trojan with an Ithaca pad on it that reads "PAT. APPL'D FOR", I just wonder how old that pad might be. It is a 1916 gun with the usual 100 years of wear but still in very good condition and comes to shoulder like a wand. May be just a Trojan but you gotta love a Parker!
The expert mentioned in this thread, John, is just that and a great guy to learn from. I miss the articles from the late Gene Hill and John was a hunting buddy of his. John told me a few years ago about a gentleman who came into his shop and purchased a nice 28 Parker, walked out and put it in the gun rack behind the seat of his pickup and drove across the railroad track by his shop with the Parker bouncing in the rack. I still wonder about that gun and what it looks like today. Love em and use em and the next generation will be glad we did! Met an old bear hunter this week who said he killed 15 grouse out of 19 shots this year and he might be interested in my new Trojan but, it is not for sale.

[John Dallas]

15/19? He's either lying or "Arkansawing" them. In either case, he doesn't need any Parker

[Todd Poer]

Met an old bear hunter this week who said he killed 15 grouse out of 19 shots this year and he might be interested in my new Trojan but, it is not for sale.

That is a very impressive statistic and sounded like a heck of a grouse season considering this day and age. I would almost use the word inconceivable on numbers, but I have heard of recent similar success. Two years ago I was visiting with Jim Justice on a project, and he is a die hard grouse hunter. He has a private managed area in WV where he does his grouse hunting and he told me some of his numbers and they were on par, but his total harvest was higher. I asked him if that was normal and he said heck no, but he was trying to repeat it in the future with some active property management.


Also agree with the sentiment about these guns whether you shoot em or hold em back. I don't think I will ever own a gun that won't be employing to shoot, but have more than enough that I don't shoot as much as I would like, but having them is really great.

[Jay Gardner]

15/19? He's either lying or "Arkansawing" them. In either case, he doesn't need any Parker

I prefer to call them “high percentage shots”...

[Gary Laudermilch]

15/19 - Hmmm! Ask him what brand of 22 ammo he prefers.

[Alfred Greeson]

He didn't mention how many were flying. You may have guessed it. He did say food was hard to find and he found an area where they were thick but didn't find them at all otherwise. Like I said, I just met him and he said he lived in a rough area up in the mountains, you don't go there unless you know someone there. Definitely known for good moonshine. which can cause difficulty when counting grouse and shots.

[Kevin McCormack]

Was he using leaf sights or peep sight??

[Daryl Corona]

I paid dearly for a 32" DHE 20 on a 1 frame many years ago and it has more than doubled in price. It sports a raised flat rib, straight grip and all the other goodies that come with a D grade. I know it's not a V grade but the bottom line is that 32" smallbores are very desirable. Grab it if you can.

[Kevin McCormack]

Daryl has it right - we had a discussion at the Baltimore Show about the latent frenzy and mystique of the 20 ga. 32" guns, Parker, Fox, whatever. For 2-3 years I told everyone I suspected would encounter a 32" 20 ga. Fox Sterlingworth to alert me and I would pay what I had to pay for one. No Joy - so when the ex- Dana Tauber AE Fox 20 ga. 32" custom stocked gun came up in the last Julia Auction, I said to myself, "an AE to boot; GO FOR IT!! Moves and handles like a fine Tonkin cane flyrod, and lights up those targets!

[John Truitt]

Now find me a 34" 20 gauge DH and there would be no hesitation.

[Randy G Roberts]

Daryl has it right - we had a discussion at the Baltimore Show about the latent frenzy and mystique of the 20 ga. 32" guns, Parker, Fox, whatever. For 2-3 years I told everyone I suspected would encounter a 32" 20 ga. Fox Sterlingworth to alert me and I would pay what I had to pay for one. No Joy - so when the ex- Dana Tauber AE Fox 20 ga. 32" custom stocked gun came up in the last Julia Auction, I said to myself, "an AE to boot; GO FOR IT!! Moves and handles like a fine Tonkin cane flyrod, and lights up those targets!

Well now I know where it went Kevin. I was on the phone bidding on that one right to the end, the very end. Hope you enjoy but if you should ever become shall we say "disenchanted" with it shoot me a PM,seriously....

[David Dwyer]

FYI Mark Conrad has a very nice DHE 20 ga 2 barrel set, 28" & 32" for sale and he recently lowered his price. Not a lot of condition but a nice gun.
David

[Randy G Roberts]

FYI Mark Conrad has a very nice DHE 20 ga 2 barrel set, 28" & 32" for sale and he recently lowered his price. Not a lot of condition but a nice gun.
David

Thanks David but while the 2 barrel sets are appealling I always end up shooting one set while the other never gets used so I have "tried" to steer myself away from them. That and I have am lucky enough to have a 32" DHE 20 already.

[Bill Murphy]

Todd, I would love to hunt with Jim Justice. Can you get me in?

[Rich Anderson]

This one has it all, a ton of condition, 32 inch barrels, vent rib and it's a 16ga:)

[David Dwyer]

Randy
I agree about 2 barrel sets.
David

[Randy G Roberts]

This one has it all, a ton of condition, 32 inch barrels, vent rib and it's a 16ga:)

Oh my Rich. That's a dandy combo. #1 frame possibly ? One more thing, you neglected to say what you wanted for it.:)

[Rich Anderson]

It is a #1 frame. Take your best offer, triple it then add 20% and I'll still say thanks but no thanks.:rotf: Here's what I will do for you. I'll have it at the Southern and will be shooting at Drakes Landing so if your coming and want to shoot it your more than welcome to do so. Leave your check book in the vehicle though as thats how I got it. I shot it and I bought it.:shock:

[Randy G Roberts]

I would say that you are being somewhat narrow-minded about the whole thing but I have to admit that if I was fortunate enough to own that gun I would have the same exact attitude. Since you have been so generous to offer it up at the Southern I will just take you up on that, thanks. Congrats on a great Parker !!

[David Dwyer]

C.O.B., my Friend, that made absolutely not sense to me? Is the gun for sale, at the best price you can get, or not?
David

[David Dwyer]

Rich
Absolutely fantastic Parker!!!
David

[Rich Anderson]

David it was a poor attempt at a humorous no it's not for sale at any price.

[Randy G Roberts]

Rich that was not a poor attempt at humor at all. I laughed out loud when I read it. I got it the first time. Just as my reply to it was meant to be humorous and I hope you took it that way. It is a great gun and I do hope to take you up on your offer at the Southern.

[Todd Poer]

Todd, I would love to hunt with Jim Justice. Can you get me in?

You and me both, along with the rest of the love of grouse hunting world. I think he spent a lot of time effort and money to setup and manage his little piece of grouse hunting heaven. Unofficial rule I gathered on his property is that hunting roughies is reserved for him.

When I was with him he was just starting his run up for Governor, but when grouse hunting came up, you could tell that was a real passion for him. I think quietly if he can during his stint he will try and promote more habitat management since I think he gets the way it should be done. But they do have other things to worry about in WV other than grouse hunting.

[Rich Anderson]

Here's a favorite. The 30 inch vent rib DHE 20. It's seen some use in the 17 years I've owned it and hopefully it will see a lot more. It's lost some condition over the years but thats ok by me.

[Reggie Bishop]

Very nice 20 Rich!

[David Dwyer]

Change of plans :) I just picked up a nice AHE 20 ga 30" damascus Parker. My VHE 20 ga 30" straight stock, 80% CC, all original Parker is now available. $9,500. It will be with me at Sanford

[Mills Morrison]

Whoa! Sounds nice

[Randy G Roberts]

Change of plans :) I just picked up a nice AHE 20 ga 30" damascus Parker. My VHE 20 ga 30" straight stock, 80% CC, all original Parker is now available. $9,500. It will be with me at Sanford

Sounds special David, congrats. You will have it at the Southern possibly ?

[David Dwyer]

Randy
Sure will. Shot it this morning:SWEET!
David

[Randy G Roberts]

David:
Great. I want to see it.... Thanks..

[Rich Anderson]

David:
Great. I want to see it.... Thanks..

See it.....hell I want to shoot it:rotf: Congrats on a nice find:bowdown:

[Randy G Roberts]

I was just softening him up Rich. Figured you to swoop in for the kill. Wonder if we'll have to furnish the ammo..:rotf: