Parker Production Question

[Michael Meeks]

I've been sifting through the production numbers for each grade in The Parker Story the last few days. The data that I am not seeing is a production summary by grade that shows how many guns were produced by gauge and frame size. Is this data summarized somewhere and I am just not seeing it?

Thanks,
Mike

[Brian Dudley]

There is no tabulation by frame size and that detail is not specified in all the surviving record books. So there is no way of assigning anywhere near accurate numbers to it.

[Michael Meeks]

I was afraid that might be the case. It seems there is tabular data for how many were made by gauge and barrel length for each grade and how many were made by grade and barrel material. Frame size by gauge would be interesting to see summarized. Too bad. It would be nice to have data on, for example, how many Grade 3 16 gauge guns were built on 0 vs 1 frame, etc.

[CraigThompson]

Frame size by gauge would be interesting to see summarized. Too bad. It would be nice to have data on, for example, how many Grade 3 16 gauge guns were built on 0 vs 1 frame, etc.

Yes it would I'd be especially interested in the 10's , 16's and 28's .

[Jean Swanson]

I could be wrong , but I think that information does exist in the ORIGINAL stock books records. Bill Mullins or Roy Gunther( the guy who actually copied the stock books) could answer the question. As I recall there was a copy size limitation with the copy machine, thus sacrificing some information that was deemed not necessary for the publication of the Parker Story .

[John Truitt]

Thank you to those who took the effort and time to copy the available records.

Without you guys's hard work and effort we would still be in the dark.
Thank you again and thank you for providing us with the info we do have.

[Todd Poer]

If the data is there it could be painstakingly abstracted and input into a spreadsheet and then sorted. It would be an interesting statistic but a painful one to achieve and not certain it would warrant the effort. There could be other things derived from the effort but it would take alot of effort unless there is way electronicly scan and sort that script.

[Kirk Potter]

I could be wrong , but I think that information does exist in the ORIGINAL stock books records. Bill Mullins or Roy Gunther( the guy who actually copied the stock books) could answer the question. As I recall there was a copy size limitation with the copy machine, thus sacrificing some information that was deemed not necessary for the publication of the Parker Story .

Makes sense to me since its not really needed info.. Frame size can’t be changed, grade and barrel length could possibly be.

[Michael Meeks]

I've actually been working on entering production data from The Parker Story into a spreadsheet where I can import it into a searchable database for personal use. I thought it would be easier to have an electronic record of production data to refer to when considering Parkers for sale in gun shops, at auctions, etc. Knowing how many gauges were built on different frame sizes for each grade would be interesting information to add to the wealth of knowledge we already have. If it is available, complete, and anywhere near accurate...

[Jean Swanson]

"Down Yonder Way"

You have no idea what that entails !! The stock books are large in size and contain endless information that would take a person months to retrieve.
The PGCA only acquired the copies of the stock books out of the GOODNESS of he Parker Story authors, it was a gift to the PGCA after they were done completing their data base. Those copies are in the records held in Harrisburg,PA by Chuck Bishop.
Also , one would have to regain the pemission from Remington Arms in Ilion to enter the records room. Considering what Remington is currently going thru ,it might be impossible. Are you volunteering your time to acquire permission, your expense, and efforts to this endeavor ? OR, is that the responsibility of those that have already given so much !!!

Also, it only cost $40.00 to become a annual member of the PGCA.

Regards
Allan Swanson

[Bill Murphy]

Thank you, Dr. Pruitt, for the pat on the back to the research committee who copied the records. Allan and I are both members of that committee. The "committee" did not copy the stock books, nor could we have. We would have been in Ilion for another two weeks or more. When we were in Ilion, Commander Gunther visited us at lunch one day and presented us with the stock book copies that he had done, and will never be done again. This is the information that Charlie Price used to create the Serialization Book. Eight or ten of us spent five long days just copying the order books and IBM cards, which was an easy job compared to what Commander Gunther had done earlier. I have no idea how much help he had, but whatever, it was an heroic task. Once we copied the 30,000 pages and hundreds of IBM cards, they had to be bound, another weeks long job. To be honest, when you find a gun at a show, the frame size is right in front of you. You don't need research material to identify what you are looking at. Thank you, Allan, for your comments and for your company at Ilion so many years ago. Bill Murphy

[Michael Meeks]

To be honest, when you find a gun at a show, the frame size is right in front of you. You don't need research material to identify what you are looking at.

Yes, agreed. I wouldn't dare argue the obvious. But, I would expand on your statement to say that if someone is looking for or thinks they may own something rare, it would be interesting to know how many may or may not exist. Someone made the statement to me that "there can't be many Grade 2 16s on a 0 frame". Well, I wonder what that number might be...

I started this thread because I'm a numbers guy and those sort of statistics intrigue me. I was hoping they might exist somewhere.

[Chuck Bishop]

You must remember that the statistics found in The Parker Story were just estimates extrapolated from the surviving order and stock books. I find it strange when people quote only x amount of guns were made in a certain configuration. They don't know what the total amount is, nobody does.

[Michael Meeks]

Yes, of course. These numbers should never be taken as absolutes. They were best estimates derived from a partial record that has been lost over time. However, the statistics were worthy of inclusion in the impressive Parker Story project and they are certainly fun to think about and to discuss. The search for discovery is always half the fun when it comes to collecting.

[Bill Murphy]

Not to state the obvious, but a few years of reading auction catalogs, spending time on the internet, attending side by side shoots and high quality gun shows and you will have a handle on the most important pieces of knowledge you need to write a check . Before we have that experience, we shouldn't be spending a lot of money on supposedly rare guns.

[Michael Meeks]

Not to state the obvious, but a few years of reading auction catalogs, spending time on the internet, attending side by side shoots and high quality gun shows and you will have a handle on the most important pieces of knowledge you need to write a check . Before we have that experience, we shouldn't be spending a lot of money on supposedly rare guns.

:rolleyes:

[Bill Mullins]

Allan is correct in that there was a size limitation issue in copying the stock books.The copying machine was not large enough to copy the entire stock book page.
Therefore, a decision had to be made as to what was most important for inclusion in The Parker Story and for collectors. As i recall the frame size was at
the end of the page or near it. Remington loaned the use of their copying machine and when the copying was completed the machine was no longer functional and had served its useful life. Roy Gunter traveled to Remington from Averill Park, NY every day for a month to copy the stock books working long hours. A labor of love for all the authors and all who helped make it a reality!
In all it was an eight year project from inception to competition of both volumes.

[Dean Romig]

You must remember that the statistics found in The Parker Story were just estimates extrapolated from the surviving order and stock books. I find it strange when people quote only x amount of guns were made in a certain configuration. They don't know what the total amount is, nobody does.

Hence, the qualifier when claiming a specific number according to TPS would be X "known".





.

[Bill Mullins]

In regards to the statistics in THE PARKER STORY the numbers given reflect the actual information taken from the Stock and Order Books that were available to
us. A mathematical formula was derived by Charlie Price (a computer engineer)
to include grades, gauges, etc. from the missing books. Information/statistics
in the Books immediately before and after missing records were taken into account to derive the final count. While that is not an exact science it projected
a number as close to reality as possible. Having said all this I recall a statement
made by the late Jack Puglisi: " In the final analysis the gun has to speak for
itself."

[allen newell]

How many DHE's 12 ga with 31 inch barrels were made? Rare config?

[Kirk Potter]

Looks like 7 Damascus and 7 titanic steel.. So if original then yes.

[allen newell]

Thanks Kirk. The one i have started out life with damascus barrels but sometime along the way it was rebarreled by parker with WK's mark on the flats and with serial number that matches. So i guess that would make it 8.

[Michael Meeks]

Just a quick follow-up to Allan's question to clarify my understanding of those numbers in TPS. The numbers refer to hammerless guns in general, but not necessarily whether DH guns had extractors or ejectors, correct? The data on production of guns with extractors vs. ejectors doesn't exist because it was a custom option available at the time of order?

[allen newell]

Michael, (TroutSetter), I see we share the same passions. Growing up I hunted Hooksett and Bow NH with my Dad and his setters. I have my own setter now (steady to flush and retrieves naturally). Would love to come up some Saturday this Fall and bird hunt with you. My apologies gents for changing the subject. Just couldn't resist.

[Michael Meeks]

Hi Allen,

Sure! I'm always up to bird hunting with new people. Drop me a PM sometime and we'll connect! I have a couple setters. One 5 yrs and one 2 yrs. Thanks for reaching out!

Mike

[Bill Murphy]

Allen did no favors for this thread. I guess it's all over for the original poster.