Gun Won't Open

[Harry Collins]

I was asked to help with a VHE that would double when the back trigger was pulled first. The front trigger pull was 2 lbs and the rear trigger was 4.5 lbs. The sear spring was weak and I fixed that. Both triggers are about 5 lbs now. If the rear tang screw is flush with the tang the gun will not open. If I back off that screw a few turns everything works great. When I received the gun the forward part of the floor plate was a bit proud. Has anyone experienced this? Any suggestions?

Kindest,
Harry

[allen newell]

Talk to Brad Bachelder

[Harry Collins]

Brad has done some great work for me and very timely.

[edgarspencer]

Harry, with the tang screw tightened home, does the top lever feel like it is not opening to fullest extent of it's travel, but when the screw is loosened (allowing the two tangs to spread, the top lever then feels normal?

[Harry Collins]

Edgar,

You nailed it!

Harry

[allen newell]

This forum brings the best minds to bear on parker issues, history etc, etc. It really is a joy to read. (My apologies from digressing from the origonal question on this thread)

[edgarspencer]

Harry,the chances are you're going to need to put in a shim under the trigger plate tang. One or more pieces of 100 pound paper, or even brass shim stock. Make sure all three trigger plate screws forward of the trigger bow are tight and the plate is flush, before tightenine either tang screw. The stock head is likely softened up with oil, and it's allowing the trigger plate to pinch the bolt, because I don't think the trigger plate is firmly seated.

[Harry Collins]

Thanks Edgar. I all the screws on the trigger plate are indexed. I thought I might loosen them and the plate, tighten the two tang screws, then tighten the floor plate screws and see what happens. If that fails I'll do as you suggest and keep you up to date. Again, thanks for the help.
Kindest,
Harry

[Brian Dudley]

I think you may find that this gun has likely been messed with prior my someone else this altering it from its original state. Very rarely will an untouched gun develop issue like this on their own.

[Harry Collins]

The plot thickens. I took the stock off and and the gun worked flawlessly. I put the stock on and I have the same problem with the gun not wanting to open when the triggers are pulled. My next move is to back the screw sleeve in the stock for the top tang screw under the top lever. The top tang screw with the stock on can tighten about 1/8 of a turn more than it should. I have just been indexing it. Any suggestions are welcome. Not often a Parker stumps me. Thank the Good Lord for my VA medications. Without them I would probably be slinging screwdrivers at this point.
Kindest,
Harry

[charlie cleveland]

i got faith in you harry...charlie

[Harry Collins]

The gun was sent a shop to be tightened up after purchase. When my friend received it it would double when the rear trigger was pulled first due to the weak sear spring. I do have the top tang screw indexing. The last time I took it apart I looked for places on the stock where things might be galled or rubbed. No dice. I think I've narrowed it down to the Safety. When both hammers are released the Safety can not be returned to Safe. I can do that with other Parkers. I'll let you know.

Harry

[edgarspencer]

This is getting confusing, but I love a good diagnostic discussion.
So am I understanding that, if the tang screws are tightened, and the gun is fired, you then can not open it, or does it matter if it's been fired or not? The difference being, if it were fired, the safety was pushed forward, and in order to open it, the top lever moves the bolt back, the bolt in turn moves the safety rod back, which pushes the top of the toggle back, moving the safety button. The safety rod passes by a bushing, threaded into the stock, through which goes the forward tang screw. See where I'm going? I'm thinking somehow, the tangs are making this sleeve, bushing, call it what you will, bind the safety rod from moving, preventing the bolt from moving fully rearward.
OK, I'm done.

[Harry Collins]

Again, Edgar, you are spot on. The bushing that goes through the stock, as I remember, is solid and the Safety Pin has a cut out in it to work around the sleeve. Everything seems to work well being fired or not until I tighten the rear Tang Screw. Fired or not fired the Safety will NOT work if the rear tang screw is tight or approaches being tight. I am off to celebrate my Monday birthday tonight so I've given up on it today. Tomorrow I will pull the sleeve and the Safety Pin to see if it is straight etc. As many times as I've been in this gun we may be viewed as a common law marriage!
Harry

[Brian Dudley]

The gun was sent a shop to be tightened up after purchase. When my friend received it it would double when the rear trigger was pulled first due to the weak sear spring.

As i thought... not an untouched gun. All bets are off as to what your issue could be.
You need to take a serious look at what was done to “tighten” the gun. In cases of breech setbacks, a lot of other things may need to be adjusted after the barrel fitment to make sure all works. A lot of times the gun not unhooking can be a problem after a serious setback.
As others have suggested, your issues is not one that can be diagnosed on the forum.

[Dave Suponski]

Harry, Is it possible to put a .010 shim under the top tang. Sounds like the inletting is a bit too deep.

[Harry Collins]

Dave, I've shimmed both top and bottom tangs in attempts to fix the problem. From an aesthetics standpoint the rear tang screw is not flush with the top tang. To me thats like looking at buggered screws. Besides every time I've been with Morris Baker he's told me to keep my tang screws tight. When all the screws are tight and indexed the Safety binds after the hammers are released. I'm off to check the safety pin etc. I keep going over how things work deep in the bowels of our Parker Boxlocks and what would keep the gun from opening. I've gone through all the possibilities with Safety Lever, Pin, Sears, Ejectors and narrowed it down to safety because without the stock on and all screws indexed, flush, and tight the operation is flawless.
Harry

[Harry Collins]

I've narrowed the problem down to the Safety and front trigger. When the gun has been fired it can be opened if the front trigger is pushed forward. I have also noted that unfired and cocked the same must be done to put the Safety back on after pushing it off. I'm still contemplating my next action as follows:
1) Round the "T" portion of the Safety Lever thinking the trigger is catching it
2) File down the Safety Lever so I won't catch the trigger
3) Still thinking on it in hopes someone else has experienced this problem and can offer the
benefit of their experience.
Kindest,
Harry

[Jerry Harlow]

Harry,

Try this. It is not the way Parker designed it, but I think it will work for you if you do not want to remove metal from the portion of the trigger that touches the safety to block it when in the safe position.

The small "trigger spring" (part 10) that pushes both triggers upward to engage the safety and prevent any slack can be reversed and will place a slight downward tension on the triggers. While you are at it, remove the triggers and clean everything with a Dremel tool with a small wire brush so it is perfectly clean in there and there is no resistance. Yes, it will produce some slack when pulling the triggers but one will not notice it. This small reversal may allow the safety to be reseated by the safety pin in the head of the stock that resets the safety since the trigger will return to the fully downward position, which is keeping the gun from opening now since the opening lever is being blocked by the safety and the pin.

Worth a try. I've had problems like this in a restocked gun.

[Jerry Harlow]

p.s. On the one I had with the same problem I removed a little metal from the top of the front trigger since it was too tall, using a Dremel tool. If the reversed spring does not work, that is what is to be done, not remove it from the safety lever. I feel sure the reversed spring will work.

Just my two cents.

[Harry Collins]

Thanks Jerry. I'll git it a try.

Harry

[Brian Dudley]

In an ideal situation, the clearance between the triggers, sears and safety should be so that there is no noticable movement in the triggers when you take the safety off. However, it is not uncommon to have some movement in the triggers upwards when taking the safety off. In order for the movement of the safety to be smooth and with ease, the bottom of the lever should be rounded on the leading edge so that it will push the triggers down when the safety is put back on. If not, there will be binding.

The whole issue you are having with the safety and the tang screws being able to be overtightened explains a case where the wood has shrunk, or has been compressed due to oul soaking or a restock where the inletting is improperly cut.

The gun not opening MAY have something to do with the safety reset rod and the binding of the improperly adjusted safety. The bound up safety is preventing the top lever from pushing back the reset rod. If you remove the reset rod, you may find the gun will at least open. Or if you want to completely pinpoint the safety as the culprit, remove the jacket assembly from the stock and see if everything works (except the safety of course).

The safety jacket being installed soley in the wood is one of the flaws in the Parker design (in my mind). It is never a good idea to have any mechanical part dependabt on the wood. The good thing about the safeties is that they are pretty forgiving. The angle of that lever can be tweeked back and forth or even side to side. And reshaped. Or even material added to it to make adjustments. The trigger blades can be adjusted too if need be. Sometimes it is easier to file the triggers than the safety lever.

Turning the trigger return spring upside down is not your answer. It may be, if anything, a temporary remedy to a larger issue. And it is not the way it was intended to operate. It is there to take up slack in the triggers. Not add more.

[Jerry Harlow]

??????????????????????
:vconfused::vconfused:

As I said, if the person is uncomfortable with removing metal from the trigger, and the tolerance between the trigger and the safety has become too small to let the normal trigger's upward pressure let the safety reset, reversing the trigger spring putting downward pressure so the gap is maintained, will work.

Pushing the front trigger forward tells Harry where the trouble is since it allows opening. Did I ever say it was the right way? No I said it was not the way it was designed. Read my post. I gave a simple fix to the problem.

May work. May not. I'll bet it does. If the gap has become that small, one will not notice it when reversing the spring. In fact one may find in guns where the external screws are messed up and out of time that you will on occasion see these trigger springs reversed by someone who installed it incorrectly as they did the external screws. Didn't know any better and did not photograph anything before disassembly. Still the gun works.

As I said and Brian repeated, removing metal from the front trigger where it meets the safety is the right way; but only if you feel comfortable doing that.

[edgarspencer]

I believe Brian is likely correct in stating the root cause of the issue is that the stock is allowing the trigger plate to be tightened to the point it has closed the necessary gap between the trigger tops and the safety bar. It would not be my first choice to remove metal in order to open this gap back up, but to add either a shim of some firm, non-compressable material, or inlet and bed in a new piece of wood, then re-inlet to the proper depth. If the stock is oil soaked to this extent, or has shrunk, what seems tight now, may not be tight in a few years.
I have a favorite belt, which, over time, has become shorter, and my fix was simply to order a new belt from "YourTack.com" Now I'm using the fourth hole instead of the first hole. Truth is, I know I didn't fix the problem. I just 'adjusted' for it.

[John Dallas]

Wow! I sure like the looks of the leather goods on "YourTack.com"

[Todd Poer]

I have a favorite belt, which, over time, has become shorter, and my fix was simply to order a new belt from "YourTack.com" Now I'm using the forth hole instead of the first hole. Truth is, I know I didn't fix the problem. I just 'adjusted for it.

Ha, I have a simple fix for that, that is painless.

If you like sweet ice tea, like most southerners do, then this worked for me and I just stumbled into it. If you don't like it, learn to like it and make it a part of you daily routine. Here is the kicker use Green Tea instead of regular tea leafs, and instead of sugar or any other sweetener use Stevia extract, since it has zero calories. I like the liquid form. I swear you cannot tell the difference in between sugar and stevia in taste if you get the right brand and I recommend Whole Foods brand. (Note, a little liquid stevia from Whole Foods brand goes a long long way, 1 teaspoon of type I use will sweeten a 2 quart jar of tea.) I brew a 2 quart jar a day and have a yeti cup working it througout the day and starting early.

So here is the story, and I am not into fad diets or any of that crap, but wife bought some green tea and we were out of regular so I tried it and liked the way it tasted, so I started drinking it all the time with Stevia . I noticed that when drinking it my appetite was greatly reduced. So I went and read about it and it seems Green Tea has a lot of benefits. It is an anti-oxident good for keeping the cancer away (maybe), suppresses appetite (I agree), burns stubborn belly fat (results may vary, but it did for me). Burning belly fat could be combination of things, less intake of food is probably biggest reason.

After I started it and did not change activity level at all I felt less hungry and could even skip meals, and when I didn't and not overeating regular meals, it could eat less and still satisfy appetite. If I was hungry I ate something though whenever I felt like it. Sometimes I at a regular big meal like before and sometimes I didn't but I always was drinking green tea even with meals. Over about a 3 to 4 month period dropped 10 to 15 lbs. Waist went from a 36 to 34. Before starting I weighed about 205 and based on family history carried most of weight on chest and belly, now weigh somewhere between 185 and 190. BTW I also tried to stay away from sweets, and try is key operative word.

I will say this, clothes fit better or even worse I had to buy some new clothes since old ones swallow me. Went from XL to L. I also felt alot more spry when hunting and better yet I lost weight around my face and now guns even fit a little better, especially the old Parker. Old favorite belts even fit and actually was able to tighten them to a hole that had never been used before.

Give it a shot the worse that could happen is you develop a tea habit. Also green tea has less caffeine and also won't stain the your cups or teeth like regular tea, if that is a concern at all. I find caffeine addiction and then not having it makes people irritable. I am all for a kinder and gentler green tea sipping world.

[edgarspencer]

Wow! I sure like the looks of the leather goods on "YourTack.com"

That was ('was' being the watchword) a closely guarded secret. I have been wearing one of several Ranger belts for a dozen years. Dressy enough and still great with jeans.

[Todd Poer]

That was ('was' being the watchword) a closely guarded secret. I have been wearing one of several Ranger belts for a dozen years. Dressy enough and still great with jeans.


:bowdown:
Yep agree with that, I have ranger style belt that had for a long time and then out grew it, I can wear it again now after hanging closet for 10 years and even in a never used before hole. Also not trying to boast. I had seen a lot folks recently that had not seen and they said man you lost a lot of weight. I was actually pissed because I did not think I was overweight before.

Screw all those BMI calculators is my thinking. If your happy and healthy I don't care what your shape or weight is personally is my motto.

[John Dallas]

At 6'4", 240, I think I'm in shape.

Round is a shape, isn't it?

[Todd Poer]

At 6'4", 240, I think I'm in shape.

Round is a shape, isn't it?

Yep and if your happy and healthy who cares. That was my thinking before I just stumbled or strolled into something that happened to me. I was not even looking or trying to lose weight, didn't care, it just happened. What happened for me might not work or be a solution for anyone else. There is no magic pill and I am not endorsing or promoting anything. I just changed some habits from what I was doing at minimal effort. Heck I think it was similar to when I stumbled into a shooting instructor at a client event years ago that changed they way I prepared before each shot and gun positioning. Shot in front of the instructor and hit 20 in a row on going away shots and then he said I was doing it wrong. :banghead:

BTW not trying to derail topic was just going along with Edgar and his disarming parody.

I'll leave it at this.

"Fat, Drunk and Stupid is no way to go through life son"

Dean Wormier, Animal House

[Harry Collins]

I appreciate all the kind words of encouragement and advice. Believe me I tried it all and now know three dozen ways not to do it. The stock, I believe, is original to the gun as the serial numbers are under the trigger guard bow and it looks like Parker inletting. There is darkness from oil, but it does not show through and the wood is not punk. Here is what I did:
1) Reversed the trigger spring to push the triggers forward
2) Rounded the front of the Safety Tab
3) Backed the front tang screw sleeve out a half turn to index the screw (it was 1/4 turn past center)
Again thanks to all for sharing your experience and knowledge.
Harry

[Todd Poer]

Harry, did that all work. BTW all my family is from Winchester and Richmond.

[Harry Collins]

Todd, it did indeed work. I'm shooting wobble trap this afternoon with the owner of the gun. I have way too much time in this gun. I thought It would be an hours work and he could have the gun back the next day. Like most everything else I've tried it just didn't turn out as I had expected. We agreed beforehand that if I couldn't fix it he would send it off to be fixed. I'll find out soon. Do you ever come this way to visit?
Harry

[Todd Poer]

Its been a few years. All grandparents have passed and still have relatives in that area and some family land but nothing big and uncles and cousins that still live in that area sort of take it on. Everyone is spread out and I live in Atlanta, but deep down that is home since born there and those are my roots. Both sides of family date back in that area from early to mid 1800's that much I know and I think some on maternal side go back to 1700's. Lord I could go on and on about stories in that area. As a kid spent a lot time there around Xmas so we would go bang around hunting quail mostly in the Richmond area on mother's side of family that had a couple of hundred acre farm that attached to other relatives and close friends of family property. Those days hunting around there are sadly over.

Go drink a cold Ale8 for me and shoot that gun, if you happen to mix with it with a little bourbon afterward, even better, can't get more kentucky then that. BTW I was at the Greenbrier resort a year or so ago and they claimed to be place that invented the mint julep and won't argue it but I still have my wild mint growing that I got from the farm along the creek from Richmond, I think it makes the best julep. I don't care what bourbon you prefer in a julep but if you don't use the right mint as intended, it's just not right.

[Justin Julian]

I would have glass bedded the action with the tang screw backed off to the point where everything worked fine, thereby reestablishing the original stock dimensions. Since I have not read otherwise, I am under the impression that the action and the wood surfaces are still properly mated when the tang screw is loosened. Then obtain a replacement tang screw from CSMC and fit it to the action so it would be both tight and properly indexed. From what I am reading, it seems like that would have solved the problem without reversing springs or filing triggers.

[Jerry Harlow]

The gun was sent a shop to be tightened up after purchase. When my friend received it it would double when the rear trigger was pulled first due to the weak sear spring. I do have the top tang screw indexing. The last time I took it apart I looked for places on the stock where things might be galled or rubbed. No dice. I think I've narrowed it down to the Safety. When both hammers are released the Safety can not be returned to Safe. I can do that with other Parkers. I'll let you know.

Harry

Harry,

I am sorry I gave the advice to reverse the trigger spring which I knew would work to allow the safety to reset and the gun to open. The smith who cranked the screws down so much that the wood was compressed probably created a hair-trigger on the front trigger, thus with a front trigger that was now pressing the sear, when the rear trigger was pulled on a loaded gun the barely engaging right barrel sear released. He obviously did not test fire the gun. Otherwise he would not have sent it out to possibly kill someone.

I know you did not over tighten as the "smith" did, so now with the spring reversed you should feel a little slack, which was not there before.

One thing that was not in the equation was if it was a replacement trigger, which had not been fitted to the gun. Slack between the triggers and the sears with the trigger spring reversed is not a bad thing. Obviously not the original design. No slack and pressing on the sears as you already know was bad. Hopefully there is now slack in the triggers.

I'll keep my useless advice to myself in the future when someone asks about a problem I have seen and leave it to the experts here. If it continues to double the sear/hammer mating may need to be recut. Very dangerous as we all know. Free advice is only worth what you pay for it and I regret posting.

[Todd Poer]

[QUOTE=Jerry Harlow;236271



I'll keep my useless advice to myself in the future when someone asks about a problem I have seen and leave it to the experts here. If it continues to double the sear/hammer mating may need to be recut. Very dangerous as we all know. Free advice is only worth what you pay for it and I regret posting.[/QUOTE]

Jerry,

I am new to this forum, but as I understand how forums are suppose to work it's based on communication of ideas and opinions. I don't think you have anything to apologize for at all. I for one have appreciated your posts, your views, ideas and you honestly tried to help with someone that was having a problem that was asking for ideas. I actually think Harry tried what you said and he said it worked and he was going to try it with live rounds yesterday afternoon. Hopefully he reports back because I would like to know since still learning a great deal about these guns.

Keep up the good work. Btw sometimes printed words come across as harsh and critical especially in quickly worded posts. Sometimes messages can be sent in a way similar to beer muscles and no way would someone comment that way to your face.

You are obviously a conscientious man to even post a second guess of your thought and as I am just someone from the peanut gallery I would like to Thank You and others that take time to share their advice, opinions and knowledge, there should never be any problem or censorship of that ever. I think that is cannon of American Society we seem to be loosing our way on and it starts in nooks and cranny's of our psyche, even in places like this forum.

BTW since its President's Day will share one of my all time favorite passages and wish Americans today could embrace some of these words and take them to heed.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Teddy Roosevelt, April, 1910- Heyday of when Parker Guns were in production by a man that appreciated fine guns. Most of the fellas and ladies that are on this forum are learned people that are familiar with this quote so will spare you the larger context what was intended in Teddy's parody.

Okay stepping off my soapbox now.

[Harry Collins]

Sadly the shoot was called off and we didn't get to test the Parker Sunday. I have to go to the VA this afternoon and afterward I will go to my tool & die man to find the thread on the rear tang screw. He may have one lying around. Justin and I were thinking the same thing on this.

Harry