Verstehen German Guns?

[John Campbell]

Oddly, I've been charged with tracing down the heritage of a matched pair of German/Bohemian guns.

They are a fine pair of 16s. Very Anglo at first glance. And made up by Johann Haberda of Frauenberg, Bohemia.

He was “Furst Schwarzenberg Scher Hotbuchsenmacher”.

My suspicion from initial research is that these guns were made for a duke or prince (Scher = Prince) of Schwartzenberg. Via the stock ovals/crest on the comb of each gun. I have no idea of the W's meaning.

Can any of you provide insight? I've already tapped the German Gun Collectors Assn. But thought I've post here as well.

Thanks in advance for any insights...

[John Campbell]

Here's a look at the gun itself... No. 2 of the pair.

[Dean Romig]

I wonder if the crown and W are representative of the St. Wenceslas crown? There is reference to this in Vienna, Austria and Budapest, Hungary. Seems appropriate for a prince who was likely crowned in a cathedral by a high-ranking bishop or cardinal.





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[Todd Poer]

Fascinating. Classic example of the provenance of gun ownership probably creating more value for the gun, than just a another well made neat old german made gun, with a sling. I will have to take your word for it that is a W that is engraved. I mean it could be interpreted as an "M" the way its broken, but no expert of German, text, alphabet or fonts.

Just guessing but it appears to maybe have been made early 1900's and maybe prior to WWI, but still that is a guess, but probably a strong obvious one. Do you know when that gun maker was active. I mean it could have been made in the 30's as well. If you know the time frame then that could limit your search to appropriate era. Again no expert on German history but not certain they were crowning or gifting too much to nobility after WWI.

Went to this site and then found these listings or people in that era. If its an M then maybe they could be for a woman Maria or an heir Maximin. Who the heck knows. If a W then it could be Weinsberg.

http://almanachdegotha.org/id101.html


h) Eleonore Johanna Marie (Seebenstein 24 Jun 1858-Móor 14 Feb 1938); m.Vienna 22 May 1883 Heinrich Gf von Lamberg (Preßburg 16 Jul 1841-Ottenstein 17 Oct 1929)

2h) JOHANN Nepomuk Adolf Maria Hubert Maximin Fst zu Schwarzenberg (Vienna 29 May 1860-Vienna 1 Oct 1938); m.Vienna 27 Aug 1889 Therese Gfn von und zu Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg (Oberwaltersdorf 9 Feb 1870-Neunkirchen 12 Aug 1945)

Also it appears the reading the history of Schwarzenberg that alot of their holdings were in what is now Czech Republic. Now here is my wild ass theory that I have no basis but just throwing it out there. When the Nazis invaded Czech region they took possession of their holdings and the Schwarzenberg family is said to have fled not wanting any part of the Nazi party. Maybe that gun went with them or maybe was left behind and Germans kept it as a war prize. Pretty thin.

[John Campbell]

Here's a rough time frame for Johann:

"Johann HABERDA, active 1850-1879, Krumau (Cesky Krumlov), formerly Austria-Hungary, now Czech Republic. He took over workshop of Ferdinand Moravek in Krumau. Later he relocated to castle of Hluboka. For some years gunmaker of the Duke of Schwarzenberg. (Heer/Stockel)"

"Johann/Jan Haberda was supplier to the Habsburg dynasty and it would seem that he obtained this rank circa 1860..."

I just need to know more about that crown/W emblem...!

Thanks to all so far!

[Garth Gustafson]

John, Wilhelm I was King of Prussia and later became the German Emperor. He reigned 1871-1888. His grandson, Wilhelm II (the Kaiser) reigned 1888-1918. It would be awesome if these guns can be linked to one of them.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-makers/gun-makers-dealers-f-j/

[John Campbell]

Here's the tantalizing bit for fans of royalty.

Compare this crown with that on the stock...:

"Heraldic crown of a prince of the Holy Roman Empire..."

[Garth Gustafson]

This from Wikipedia: The Crown of William II, also known as the Hohenzollern Crown, is the 1888 crown made for William II, German Emperor, in his role as King of Prussia. It was only used for heraldic purposes. A Crown of the German Empire was never made.

[Todd Poer]

Great stuff. Still trying to make out the W but I trust your certain on that. So how does story lead to where you are now.

Anyway this could be a tough one to make a connection on. The stock looks old enough to be from late 1800's. I don't know the history of firearms when they started making hammerless sidelock shotguns but late 1870's is possible. How it stayed together as a matched pair is intriguing as well.

So if he did not make the guns for a particular Schwarzenberg its possible a Schwarzenberg made the gun as a gift? I guess if there are any photos of William II or anyone holding that gun that would be the proof.

[Todd Poer]

Kensal,

Your project has enthralled me and I don't know why. Please let us know what you find out. Btw I went to site that Garth sent, and saw a gun with an engraving for Wilhelm II. Very ornate, Germans like heavy engraving and scroll work. There was a very pronounced W on the engraving with the crown included as well. Btw I did see some of the other type set for that era lettering and I am convinced that the letter engraved is an M and not a W. But hey that is just my two cents. If you hit a dead end on W then may consider M angle.

Good luck and let us know what the German Gun collectors come up with. Very interesting project to sleuth around on. I did see some Wilhelm II photos with him holding game and around game, but never saw any of them holding any guns.

[Dean Romig]

I disagree Todd - it's a W in MHO

The W in the bottom illustration more closely resembles the subject picture.







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[Todd Poer]

Gosh it probably is a W, again I just can't make it out very well. Do me a favor Dean and go the link that Garth posted earlier and I copied below. Scroll down a bit and on right side there is a black and white drawing with German description of what I guess is gunmaking. I have a friend that speaks German fluently and would ask him but he is overseas 7 hours ahead. Anyway if you go bottom of the drawing there is a capital "M" that appears to be at the start of the Word Mann, I guess. That letter has same looking characteristics as the one engraved on the gun.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/abo...s-dealers-f-j/

I also just went to Google at this webpage. Below the M and W look very familiar but there is a break on the M under that first upstroke that is not on the W. I don't know.

http://www.fontriver.com/i/fonts/german_underground/german_underground_specimen.jpg

[Todd Poer]

Awesome, look at the M and W in same font you sent and then look at letter on the gun. There is a gap or the first stroke is shorter. Anyway. Also in some of the W's is fonts you added to updated post have breaks along the top like you would expect to see with a W, but they don't exist on the gun letter. I know its confusing because some of the W's are all closed but the only difference between the M and W is that little break under the first line of letter.

Oh well. I now know more or less about German lettering than I ever thought I would know. It only matters if Kensal wants to chase W's or M's. I swear I keep looking and comparing and contrasting between letters it and it appears clearly to me. I guess this is what scholars trying to decode ancient language, hieroglyphics and text go through.

[allan.mclane]

Closed at the top, open at the bottom = M
Closed at the bottom, open at the top = W

My vote is "W"

The trouble is that the engraver got three of the four openings closed and the more I look at it, the less I am sure what was intended. All the serifs (ornamentation strokes) are there for both letters. At least the crown is upright!

[Todd Poer]

Closed at the top, open at the bottom = M
Closed at the bottom, open at the top = W

The trouble is that the engraver got three of the four openings closed and the more I look at it, the less I am sure what was intended. All the serifs (ornamentation strokes) are there for both letters. At least the crown is upright!

I agree. I don't see the opening up top and some of the fonts have the serif (new word for me) that make that break at the top. They don't do it on the gun letter. Again the only thing that I see consistent between german lettering for the M and W's is that break under that first line or leg of the letter.

The crown and the letter on a gun that Garth sent a link to was clearly a W for Wilhelm, which was one of the Kaisers. This one is confusing at least to me. Anyway its a moderately fun and interesting discussion.

[Dean Romig]

The top left on about all of the script M's have a roof-like slant while the W's have a serif.





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[Todd Poer]

The top left on about all of the script M's have a roof-like slant while the W's have a serif


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Hmm, noticed that myself. Some it was prevalent, others not. The only thing that was consistent was that gap or break under first leg on all M's, which if you open the picture of gun and zoom in it is obvious break or opening. The tops were closed and serifs did not penetrate past closure. I have seen some W that had closed tops but the serifs went all the way through. None of the W's have a break under the first leg. There is so much potential mixing of style in that engrave.

Anyway regardless its either one or the other. But hopefully this helps the guy that needs it. Maybe the German gun guys can shine some light on it.

[Bob Brown]

I'll go for either Prince Otto Windisch-Gratz, the grandson-in-law of Emperor Franz Joseph, or Prince Franz Joseph Windisch-Gratz, Emperor Franz Joseph's great grandson. If you check the Double Gun Journal volume 17, issue 2 (Summer 2006) there is an article called K&K Hoflieferanten written by Felix Neuberger. In the article there are photos of a brass plate on Prince Otto's Johann Springer double rifle case that has the identical crown over a monogram with the W. There is also a O intertwined with the W. There are also photos of Prince Franz's Johann Springer drilling which also has the identical crown over FJW in block letters. Not definitive, but I think they were the only Princes of that time period of the House Windisch-Gratz who would use the W and were royal.

Well, maybe not Franz Joseph, he was born in 1904 so he was probably too late to be the owner.

[Todd Poer]

What I find interesting is the fact that there were several gunmakers that were somewhat dedicated to a family or crown. Like Wilhelm I and II I think also had dedicated makers and the W on their guns looked like W's. They probably had guns made from all sorts of German makers but obviously some were selected based on some reasons. The subject guns don't appear to be over the top ornate but more like go to everyday gun of a royal estate or for an owner that liked to hunt. Hard to say if they were gifts or not. My guess is that they were guns commissioned by the royal family for their own use, which that estate is now in Czech Republic.

Trying to figure out why a maybe somewhat dedicated Schwarzenberg gunmaker would make a gun with a W or M and not with an S. Going to the House of Schwarzenberg site that is below and going to era described the only guy in that mans world era was Johann blah, blah blah Maximin Schwarzenberg. My guess was maybe he went by Maximin, hence my M letter theory. I can't really see any names of people with Ws prominent in that so called 1860 to 1880 time frame. He would have been a teenager at that time in 1870's, which a matched pair of guns from the family gunmaker could have been a gift. Also go to link below and look at the crown used in sites wallpaper, it looks like a dead ringer for the crown on the gun. I think those are Max's guns since he was next in charge of the family affairs or maybe his wife's.

The other thought/hypothesis is that he married his wife Therese in 1889 when she was 19 years old (see below). She had a W in her last name. It was fashionable at the time for German women of means to shoot. Actually saw a sketch of a German Huntress in her fashionable attire and by her side was a SXS with a sling attached. 16 Gauge might have been suitable gauge of the fashion since this was age of Annie Oakley and I believe she toured Europe shooting her 16 gauge Parker, which might have been an influence. Guns could have been made earlier by the family gunsmith and given to her but then it might of had a TW in the engrave. I just don't know what was customary.

Also it appears that during this era when Johann and Therese were prominent that the Schwarzenburg family combined with his wife's Therese family holdings made them one of the largest landowners in Europe at the time up until the rise of Hitler and Nazi party. In essence if you were a large landowner at that time you probably either enjoyed hunting or at least had to look the part essentially if you were hosting hunting parties or events.

So only direct evidence we have is the guns with some engraving which popular opinion says is a W, and that the guns were made by the Schwarzenburg family gunsmith. As far as reasonable information that I have seen, the circumstantial evidence of that era points to one of these two prominent people as part of that family.

Here is link to Schwarzenberg Family site.
http://almanachdegotha.org/id101.html

2h) JOHANN Nepomuk Adolf Maria Hubert Maximin Fst zu Schwarzenberg (Vienna 29 May 1860-Vienna 1 Oct 1938); m.Vienna 27 Aug 1889 Therese Gfn von und zu Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg (Oberwaltersdorf 9 Feb 1870-Neunkirchen 12 Aug 1945)