repros

[Daniel G Rainey]

Are the reproduction guns by Winchester preferred over the other reproductions ?

[Dean Romig]

If youre refering to such reproductions as Tony Galazan's Foxes and other reproductions, I would say no. Those guns are highly desirable but the beauty of the Parker Reproduction by Winchester is, not only the fact that it is nearly a flawless imitation of the original in terms of operation and aesthetics, but it is far underpriced for what it is in comparison to the guns I mentioned.





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[Bobby Cash]

You wouldn't call the Utica Foxes reproductions.
Why do you call the New Britain Foxes reproductions?

[Dean Romig]

I guess because the New Britain Foxes are contemporary guns manufactured to original specs but using modern materials just like the Parker Reproductions by Winchester. If I may be so bold, I also consider the $50k New Britain AHE Parker to be a reproduction for those same reasons... but that's just me - YMMV.





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[Bobby Cash]

I don't get it.
So materials are the criteria for reproduction status??

[WmRike]

If someone in Kansas other than GM was making what appeared to be Corvette three-window coupes, they would almost certainly be considered reproductions.

[George M. Purtill]

It is a very interesting philosophical debate.
I think its very unfortunate that the Skeuse Parkers that we all love were called Parker Reproductions. They were licensed by Remington who own the Parker rights. They were not really built by Winchester but by a plant in Japan that built Winchester.
My peeny little brain tells me that someone else also made LC Smiths, as did someone else make AH Foxes. They are not considered "reproductions' but are an evolution of the original with all the legal rights to be made by the owner of those rights.
All of these evolutions of original guns were no doubt made with more modern materials WHEN they were made. We know that the Ilion guns produced by Remington and labeled Parker were made a bit differently, for example barrel steel. I would never call my Ilion guns "reproductions".
To me a Skeuse Parker is in the same category as a Utica Fox. In fact I am going to start calling them Skeuse Parkers. It is unfortunate they have all the Winchester and Japan nomenclature on them.
But enough of my yapping....

[Bobby Cash]

Licensed, engineered, interchangeable parts...
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Skeuse Parkers has a very nice ring to it.

[Dean Romig]

I don't get it.
So materials are the criteria for reproduction status??


Bobby, I like your first reply better... the one you withdrew...

In any case, and without trying to be argumentative, to reproduce something (in this case) is to manufacture something that 'mimics' or 'copies' the original. The original may be considered a 'classic' (something that is honored as definitive in its field) and bears reproducing for this very reason. And the fact that these items are being reproduced in modern times it is just logical that modern (state of the art) materials be used in the manufacturing of the item.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the subject and as I stated before, YMMV.
And my mind can be changed by other opinions. I've never seen anything in print that defines what a 'reproduction' is in terms of shotguns so I guess everyone's opinion would have some validity on the matter.





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[George M. Purtill]

Dean
You are not argumentative any more than I am. As I said it is a very interesting philosophical question.
I love my Skeuse Parkers. I think I will see if Tony Galazan will make me up some replacement case labels.
I know Gerry Addison and Kenny Graft will need a hundred each.

[Bobby Cash]

Bobby, I like your first reply better... the one you withdrew...
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The new one is kinda like a “Reply Reproduction”.

I would suppose that the emotional and financial investment that some make in their
“Originals” seems to call out for some type of differentiation.

So what is it really?

I cant believe it’s the geographic parameters during production i.e.Philly vs. Utica Foxes.
I dont believe it’s continuity of production i.e. Superposed production during WWII.
Use and history? NIB/unfired 100 year old specimens begs that question.
Soul? Maybe those of you who shoot both can answer that.

[Dean Romig]

Don't forget Greg Baehman.





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[Dean Romig]

Oh, BTW.... Your Mileage May Vary...(for George's benefit ;))





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[Ken Hill]

This is an interesting discussion.

Are the CSMC Foxes and Parkers given serial numbers associated with the original numbering scheme and sequence?

Did the Skeuse's have to use "Reproduction" on their guns?

Ken

[Robin Lewis]

This is an interesting discussion.

Did the Skeuse's have to use "Reproduction" on their guns?

Ken

There is a summary about the Parker Reproduction that addresses this information in the "Grades" page.... follow the "grades" link off the main parkerguns.org page and scroll down the that section.

[Robin Lewis]

Here is the text from the "Grades" page for you:

In 1984, under the direction and encouragement of Jack Skeuse, the President of the Reagent Chemical & Research Inc, teamed up with the Winchester Arms Company and revived the Parker shotgun. But, because the Remington Arms Company holds the rights to the Parker Brothers brand, they labeled it "The Parker Reproduction by Winchester". Originally introduced in the DHE grade, it was later expanded to limited production of BHE and A1 Special grades. Production continued until the owners of the manufacturing company in Japan closed their doors in 1989. Sales continued while supplies remained but that ended sometime around 1997. On September 17th, 1999, a flood destroyed all remaining inventory, including parts and most of the factory records. Today, parts for these guns are difficult to find because the insurance company destroyed what was recovered in the flood to avoid possible future liabilities.

The first batch of 28 ga guns that were ordered from Japan had an F on the lug where normally the frame size is found. They came that way from the manufacturer probably because they misread an accounting code that was used as a computer codes.

The Steel Shot Special model was produced to address the water foul hunters concern shooting the required steel shot shells and the damage they may do to the barrels and their chokes. The chokes are slightly longer than standard chokes on the other Parker Reproductions models. It was observed that longer chokes patterned steel shot more evenly; all tests were done with 3" 1 5/8oz steel #2 shot. The barrels were chrome throughout, unlike the standard Parker Reproduction which didn't have chrome in the choke area. The choke area chrome was added because no one knew at that time the long term effect steel shot would have on the choke area.

The Sporting Clays Classic model were the only Parker Reproduction's offered with factory screw-in chokes. You cannot tell by looking at the choke tubes themselves to determine if they were original factory or not. But, you can positively identify a Parker Reproduction Sporting Clays Classic model with factory screw-in chokes by looking at the barrel flats; it will be marked with an "ISC" stamping (Internal Screw Choke).

Some Parker Repro serial numbers on the barrels have an extra "0" that the serial number on the frame does not have. Example: serial number on frame 20-XXXX, serial number on barrel 20-0XXXX. There was an anticipation to manufacture and sell many more Parker Reproductions than were actually produced. The extra digit to the action number was made in anticipation of future needs.

Production numbers:

DHE 28 Gauge 4,203
DHE 20 Gauge 5,800
DHE 12 Gauge 2,137
DHE 12 Gauge Steel Shot 350
DHE 12 Gauge Sporting Clays 125
DHE 410 Gauge 33
BHE 28 Gauge 7
BHE 20 Gauge 100
BHE 12 Gauge 100
BHE 410 Gauge 9
A-1 Factory Engraved, All Gauges 150
A-1 Custom Engraved, All Gauges 300
A-1 28/.410 Combo 16
Plus 500 16 Ga barrel sets that fit on the 0 frame 20ga DHE

[Dean Romig]

I would suppose that the emotional and financial investment that some make in their “Originals” seems to call out for some type of differentiation.

I completely agree with that statement.

So what is it really?

I cant believe it’s the geographic parameters during production i.e.Philly vs. Utica Foxes.
I dont believe it’s continuity of production i.e. Superposed production during WWII.
Use and history? NIB/unfiredd 100 year old specimens begs that question.
Soul? Maybe those of you who shoot both can answer that.

I can answer to the "soul" question having toted both originals in the uplands as well as my "Skeuese Parkers" - My original Parker Bros. guns have it - it's just there right between my hands - but my "Skeuese Parkers" don't....yet. :bigbye:






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[John Dallas]

I was told that when Remington tried to revive the Parker in the 1970's (?) that the lawyers made them redesign the safety system in order to pass the "slam test" which was apparently an industry standard. If true, were the Winchester reproductions modified?

[Bill Mullins]

Robin,
In regard to the Production Numbers, corresponding with Geoffroy Gournet recently, he indicated to me that only approximately 80 A1 Customs were made
during his 15 years at Reagent Chemical/Parker Reproductions. Approximately
only another 80 have been done since Parker Reproduction closed in early 2000
and he became an Independent Contractor. We can only assume several in-the white A1 Specials were lost in the flood and the remaining few survivors were sold to Tony Galazan for distribution. Consequently the 300 number of A1 Customs is a high number.
Bill

[Kirk Potter]

Personally I don’t consider a Parker reproduction a “Parker”, and that’s nothing against them, I love them for what they are.. But they’re not part of the original continuous production. I’ve had this same discussion about about US WWII firearms. I have a February 1941 M1 Garand and a December 1943 M1 Carbine. Both of these guns are still being produced and the parts interchange, but would you consider them original?

[Dean Romig]

Yup.





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[Scot Cardillo]

As a guy that started a business as a dumb-ass kid (machine shop) with a whopping eight hundred bucks, no house, junk vehicle for me and a slightly less junky (but safe) vehicle for my equally young and dumb (but graciously beautiful) young wife (and a shorthair) to believe in me, sink or swim. No equipment, no customers, no contacts, no shop but for a rented dirt floor and a single light bulb that showed light through the walls..literally. I'm not ashamed to say Tom Skeuse is a personal hero of mine. It's a great story in the history of gun-making in my view and, not such a shabby pc of hardware that feels pretty darn good in the hand.

I like 'em, Reproduction, or not.

[Kirk Potter]

Yeah, if you’re in the market for a side by side you won’t get more for your money buying anything else.

[Garry L Gordon]

We've "been there, done that," on the reproduction issue for sure, but just think how we might view this if the later production Parkers had [I]never[I] been called reproductions in the first place.

[Dean Romig]

As I recall, when Remington produced a couple of prototype Parkers in the 1980's(?) with a few variations from the originals, they named them the "Parker Reintroduction" and I wonder why they weren't simply called a 'Parker'?





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[Kirk Potter]

Didn’t they start at 242,500 or something like that?

[John Dallas]

I have an original paper order form for that reintroduction.
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20018&highlight=remington

It was offered from "Parker Gun Works, a Division of Remington"

[Dean Romig]

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20018&highlight=remington

It was offered from "Parker Gun Works, a Division of Remington"

I couldn't open that... but now that I've modified it, I can. Click above link.





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[John Dallas]

Dean thanks for the help
Now, if I could figure out how to invert the photos

[Richard Skeuse]

Here is the text from the "Grades" page for you:

In 1984, under the direction and encouragement of Jack Skeuse, the President of the Reagent Chemical & Research Inc, teamed up with the Winchester Arms Company and revived the Parker shotgun. But, because the Remington Arms Company holds the rights to the Parker Brothers brand, they labeled it "The Parker Reproduction by Winchester". Originally introduced in the DHE grade, it was later expanded to limited production of BHE and A1 Special grades. Production continued until the owners of the manufacturing company in Japan closed their doors in 1989. Sales continued while supplies remained but that ended sometime around 1997. On September 17th, 1999, a flood destroyed all remaining inventory, including parts and most of the factory records. Today, parts for these guns are difficult to find because the insurance company destroyed what was recovered in the flood to avoid possible future liabilities.

The first batch of 28 ga guns that were ordered from Japan had an F on the lug where normally the frame size is found. They came that way from the manufacturer probably because they misread an accounting code that was used as a computer codes.

The Steel Shot Special model was produced to address the water foul hunters concern shooting the required steel shot shells and the damage they may do to the barrels and their chokes. The chokes are slightly longer than standard chokes on the other Parker Reproductions models. It was observed that longer chokes patterned steel shot more evenly; all tests were done with 3" 1 5/8oz steel #2 shot. The barrels were chrome throughout, unlike the standard Parker Reproduction which didn't have chrome in the choke area. The choke area chrome was added because no one knew at that time the long term effect steel shot would have on the choke area.

The Sporting Clays Classic model were the only Parker Reproduction's offered with factory screw-in chokes. You cannot tell by looking at the choke tubes themselves to determine if they were original factory or not. But, you can positively identify a Parker Reproduction Sporting Clays Classic model with factory screw-in chokes by looking at the barrel flats; it will be marked with an "ISC" stamping (Internal Screw Choke).

Some Parker Repro serial numbers on the barrels have an extra "0" that the serial number on the frame does not have. Example: serial number on frame 20-XXXX, serial number on barrel 20-0XXXX. There was an anticipation to manufacture and sell many more Parker Reproductions than were actually produced. The extra digit to the action number was made in anticipation of future needs.

Production numbers:

DHE 28 Gauge 4,203
DHE 20 Gauge 5,800
DHE 12 Gauge 2,137
DHE 12 Gauge Steel Shot 350
DHE 12 Gauge Sporting Clays 125
DHE 410 Gauge 33
BHE 28 Gauge 7
BHE 20 Gauge 100
BHE 12 Gauge 100
BHE 410 Gauge 9
A-1 Factory Engraved, All Gauges 150
A-1 Custom Engraved, All Gauges 300
A-1 28/.410 Combo 16
Plus 500 16 Ga barrel sets that fit on the 0 frame 20ga DHE

The original person who got the parker Reproduction was my father Thomas Skeuse Sr. not my brother Jack. Just to clarify. Thanks gentelmen.

[George M. Purtill]

The original person who got the parker Reproduction was my father Thomas Skeuse Sr. not my brother Jack. Just to clarify. Thanks gentelmen.

Thanks Richard.
I am enjoying my Skeuse Parkers.

[Richard Skeuse]

I'm sure Dad is having a laugh at the Skeuse Parkers name. I know I am, in a proud way

[George M. Purtill]

I'm sure Dad is having a laugh at the Skeuse Parkers name. I know I am, in a proud way

If you happen to channel him, tell him thanks from all of us for his wonderful project.

[Richard Skeuse]

I'm going to have to thank him from afar for you...,For now anyway. He passed into the happy hunting grounds in 1989. Ill pass it along in my thoughts,Thanks guys

[Robin Lewis]

Correction has been made, Thank you!

[Bobby Cash]

I'm sure Dad is having a laugh at the Skeuse Parkers name. I know I am, in a proud way
Credit where credit is do.

[Gerry Addison]

Where do I write to order those 100 labels!

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks to Bill Mullins for attempting to clear up the "A-1 Special Custom" riddle. No, Mr. Gournet did not engrave 300 Repros to A-1 specifications. If the "300" total were to be anywhere near correct, the "300" should include all unengraved guns released. To what level these guns were embellished, no one knows. I have seen A-1s, Invincibles, and totally unengraved examples. Only Mr. Gournet knows how many he engraved to A-1 level.

[Robin Lewis]

I have seen A-1s, Invincibles, and totally unengraved examples. Only Mr. Gournet knows how many he engraved to A-1 level. I thought that was an obvious observation that I never thought of :banghead: so I asked him ....... 80 was the answer for production and about the same for the ones in the white. I updated the tables based on his response.

[Greg Baehman]

As long as we're talking about updating the Parker Reproduction Production Chart . . . there are only 9 BHE .410 shown in the Production Chart. Here is a pic of a B .410-0052. This would seem to be factual evidence that there were at least 52 produced -- and likely more.

[Bill Mullins]

Hi Robin, If I understood Geoffroy correctly in my recent communication he indicated approximately 80 A1 Customs he engraved during his 15 year tenure with Reagent and another 80 or so post Reagent employment as an independent
contractor. I don't think the 80 number applied to A1 Factory Engraved in Japan
as now reflected in your Production Table. That number probably is much higher.
Earlier numbers tossed around were in the 350 range... Jack Skeuse may have
an idea on the Japanese engraved A1 production. Thanks!

[Robin Lewis]

Thanks Bill, you are correct. I had the number at 300 but when I communicated with Geoffroy I forgot about the others and changed it to 80 in error. I'll change it back because, at the time I originally posted the 300, I had some amount of confidence in that number.

This speculation on numbers is dragging me down a road I had hoped to avoid. I built these numbers from several areas, most all from back and forth discussions on this forum.

Geoffroy said he did 80 A1S for Mr. Skeuse and about 80 afterwards. So, I adjusted the number to 160 for the custom engraved guns.

There is active discourse on the 410 numbers on our forum at the moment. I am trying to get some insight into those numbers as well from Mr. Skeuse; maybe he can shed some light on the true situation.

If anyone can help with Mr. Baehman's query on 410 production, maybe we can come closer to resolving that mystery. I would like to see more than one person provide some solid data. Based on the picture posted there seems to be more 410's out there but where are they? How sure are we that serial numbers run consecutively for guns that actually shipped, especially in these low interest (at the time) guns. Did they make them one off when wanted or as a production batch of some larger number..... That could screw up the numbering system.

[Bill Mullins]

Robin, in my opinion speculation and "mystique" surrounding the .410 actual production numbers will continue for the foreseeable future. My personal belief and feeling is very few were made in any grade. Like the original Parker .410's there was little demand. I believe the majority of the PR .410 barrels whatever that number turns out to be were mated with the 28 gauge on the 00 frame. Jack or Richard Skeuse have the best knowledge (memory or records ) of the number produced.

[Greg Baehman]

If we just want to put some production numbers to be in-the-ballpark in the Production Chart then fine, but I believe we owe it to ourselves and to those coming after us to do better. I, and others; have questioned the number of DHE and BHE .410s produced, there also appears to be issues with the number of DHE 20s produced, the chart shows 5800 produced, but in Nick Sisley's interview with Jack Skeuse, Mr. Skeuse reported there were actually 6050 built.

As far as the Custom A-1 Specials are concerned I would agree Gournet did the lion's share of those, but if just his numbers are used in the chart there's a bunch more out there. I can name several other engravers like Baer, Koluch, Hurst, Strosin, Griffiths, Gamradt and others that have completed custom in-the-white Parker Repro A-1 Specials. A few of these engravers have done multiples of them.

IMHO, I believe the Production Chart should be revised and updated to be as accurate as our collective knowledge allows. And going forward, as additional information comes to light, further revisions be made at that time.

:duck:

[Robin Lewis]

I agree, the production chart should be accurate and it wasn't. It has led to a point of confusion that isn't helping having it presented as firm and accurate data.

My apologies.

[Bill Mullins]

Robin.. we all strive for as accurate information as possible and as provided
by Production records and memories from those that are in position to know...
namely the Skeuse family and those that were in their employment.
We build data upon the best "accurate" information that has been provided and
observed. I have been researching and compiling Parker data for well over 30
years. It is a moving target and as it is said "the only thing constant is change".
We know Geoffroy's information as to his engraved guns is accurate. How many in the white guns sold outside Reagent is only known by the Skeuse family and
possibly Tony Galazan. It would be nice to know those numbers.... someday maybe we will. Thanks for your continued research and updates.

[George M. Purtill]

As long as we're talking about updating the Parker Reproduction Production Chart . . . there are only 9 BHE .410 shown in the Production Chart. Here is a pic of a B .410-0052. This would seem to be factual evidence that there were at least 52 produced -- and likely more.

I have been told by a source who would know, that all orders to Japan were in minimum quantities of 25 and always multiples of 25. So based on that metric and your picture, there would be at least 75 410's.

[Dean Romig]

As far as the Custom A-1 Specials are concerned I would agree Gournet did the lion's share of those, but if just his numbers are used in the chart there's a bunch more out there. I can name several other engravers like Baer, Koluch, Hurst, Strosin, Griffiths, Gamradt and others that have completed custom in-the-white Parker Repro A-1 Specials. A few of these engravers have done multiples of them.


To say nothing of the incredible engraving done by Winston Churchill on a few of the A1S Repros.





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