Agents for Parker

[Randy Davis]

Page from 1878 Simmons Hardware Company...

Trap3

[Mike Poindexter]

Interesting. They say "The barrels are manufactured by themselves", but don't list Laminated Steel as an option. We have seen rib-marked "Laminated Steel" barrels in a herringbone pattern from 1878 to 1881 stamped P on the flat, which Rev Doc Drew identifies as Lutticher (Liege) "Toncin" damascus, and many believe to be the only barrels actually manufactured from scratch by PB. Wonder what the buyers thought when instead of getting damascus they got a gun marked Laminated?

[Todd Poer]

I liked the last part. We will mail you a gun COD to try out and if you don't like it you can return it. I guess nothing has really changed in the mail order business in last 100 plus years either.

[Dean Romig]

Savvy folks are quick to learn, no matter how much they want to be liked by everybody.
"Fool me once, shame on you - Fool me twice, shame on me."
Or more to the point... "In God we trust - All others pay cash."





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[Dean Romig]

Interesting. They say "The barrels are manufactured by themselves", but don't list Laminated Steel as an option. We have seen rib-marked "Laminated Steel" barrels in a herringbone pattern from 1878 to 1881 stamped P on the flat, which Rev Doc Drew identifies as Lutticher (Liege) "Toncin" damascus, and many believe to be the only barrels actually manufactured from scratch by PB. Wonder what the buyers thought when instead of getting damascus they got a gun marked Laminated?

It's true - according to testimony given by Charles A. King before a Senate Inquiry, Parker Bros. produced their own barrels in 1877, 1878, and 1879. They were made in segments and hammer-welded together to form the full-length tube.
We find guns made with these P marked Laminated Steel barrels into the early 1880's. I have a Grade 3 made in 1881 with these Parker-made barrels.

There should have been no disappointment in receiving a Parker with Laminated barrels instead of Damascus barrels. Laminated Steel is a more resilient composition and is as strong as the best Damascus.





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[Todd Poer]

I guess Simmons was the one that risked shipping it out to begin with but I don't know if that was customary for the time, or a gun marketing differentiator tactic. Marketing and service after the fact was obviously different than it was today, to some extent.

Passing thought looking at the price list from Simmons that was the retailer, what do you think the markup on these guns were. I mean what was the price that Parker was selling these guns or as an agent what was the commission or handling fee of the gun sale.

[Dean Romig]

From what I've seen on discounts given by Parker Bros on new guns the retailer could realize anywhere from 25% to 40% or better, of the retail price, often depending on the individual gun, the volume of the order, and even the dealer.





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[Bill Murphy]

In my opinion, the extreme markups at the distributor and dealer levels were the financial downfall of Parker Brothers. Obviously, the other products manufactured by Parker held up the gun side of the business.

[Dean Romig]

Obviously, the other products manufactured by Parker held up the gun side of the business.

The manufacture of shotguns was only a small fraction of the Parker manufacturing empire.





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[Mike Franzen]

It's true - according to testimony given by Charles A. King before a Senate Inquiry, Parker Bros. produced their own barrels in 1877, 1878, and 1879.

I have an 1878 Gun. Does that mean the Damascus barrels were made by Parker?

BTW ... She just turned 140 this year. Doesn’t look a day over 125 :-)

[Dean Romig]

No Mike - Parker Bros. never made Damascus barrels, only Laminated Steel.



Examples of Parker Bros Laminated Steel....

In the fifth picture from the top you can see the differences in welded pattern about halfway of the length of both tubes.




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[Mike Franzen]

That’s a beautiful gun. I have yet to acquire a laminated barrel gun. My gun is 12088. Very close to the gun pictured.

[Dean Romig]

Actually, that's five different guns Mike.






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[Mike Franzen]

I meant the first one pictured

[Dean Romig]

Oh, I see what you mean - the barrel pattern in the first picture. Fantastic symmetry for Parker-made Laminated barrels.

That's my 16 ga. O-frame lifter in the second picture.





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[Drew Hause]

And the top 2, and bottom 3 are most certainly not Parker produced "Laminated Steel", but we've had this discussion a time or 5 :(
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20330

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5520

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=7342#post7342

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CGAF5f-J0-Foww572KvNYb0xSS1nBasWgHYvzD18i3c/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12y9006Ur7mMCqdeeye89c7L4DQrc2iXR8p4S6OIN1bA/edit

[Dean Romig]

Then we should amicably agree to disagree, right?

I'll concede the gun in the top picture because I don't have any evidence of a P stamped on the left barrel flat where the letter stamp for the steel type is normally found, but that's all I'll concede.





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[Drew Hause]

I'm just trying to be exact in our description of pattern welded barrels. We know John Blaze made Damascus barrels for D.B. Wesson 1867-1870, both Crolle

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20432700/375965613.jpg

and another he labeled Laminated Steel

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18063717/255812885.jpg

Another Wesson and it is clearly Corche

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/23997270/391658245.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/23997270/391658246.jpg

and it is quite similar to "The Gold Towel' guy's 1878 Gr. 4 Lifter and the last gun you posted above

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/23997270/400526667.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/23997270/400518024.jpg

Were the tubes left over from the D.B. Wesson supply, or made by John Blaze for Parker after Dan Wesson shut down his shotgun production in December 1870?

Despite the "Laminated Steel" mark however, the pattern is not what Birmingham, Liege or Ferlach would call Laminated Steel.

This Back Action Lifter barrel really IS Laminated Steel and the tubes (butt-welded together) are slightly different

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/407986243.jpg

But "Parker Bros. Laminated Steel" is fine by me.

Remington called it "Ohonon 6 S.T." and I have no idea how they came up with that. There was a Thonon Liege maker but I haven't found an Ohonon

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/23997270/403853172.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Knowing that composit barrel-making specialist(s) were brought to Parker Bros. in Meriden from Europe to instruct and maybe even perform the task in training Parker Bros workers in the art of manufacturing composit barrel tubes, wouldn't it make sense that the focus be on a variety of Laminated patterns than just one? I think so.
During the years 1877 - 1879 we see examples of at least two, possibly three different Laminated patterns used on Parker shotguns. Therefor, it seems to me that Parker Bros. workers may have produced more than one Laminated pattern.

We have learned over and over never to say never when it comes to what Parker Bros may have or may not have done.


I know the "Gold Towel Guy's" grade 4 that you picture, Drew, has no P stamp and I believe the other of his that you show has no P either but of the Laminated Steel barrels on Parkers that I have seen in that time period and two or three years after 1879 the majority have the P stamp. Maybe the barrels without the P were sourced elsewhere, or maybe stamping the P was overlooked by those responsible to do so... for whatever reason.






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