Rise & Fall of American SxS's

[Rich Anderson]

It's evolution. Back in the day the big name shooters who represented not only manufacturers but ammo companies as well all shot SXS's. Remember that's how Arthur DuBray made his living, selling Parker's to competitive shooters as well as the general public.
In 1948 my Grandfather won the Class C championship at the Detroit Gun Club by breaking 200 straight from 16 yards. I have the trophy. According to my Mom his favorite trap gun was a Parker.

[Brett Hoop]

I will be the first to admit I don't shoot my small frame Parkers as well as I do a Browning Superposed. In part because I used to be addicted to trap and shot a Broadway for years.
I am planning to shoot a few clays this year with my Parkers and see if I can't improve.

I choose to hunt birds exclusively with Parkers, it just adds to the fun, my game bag doesn't always need to be heavy. Today it's much more about watching the dog work and see him get hot. If I knock one down for him once in awhile he's happy. If I miss them all he still gets in the truck and goes home with me.

[Rich Anderson]

Maybe it's evolution out with the old in with the new sort of thing. I don't buy into the single sighting plane mumbo jumbo. Back in the day when the shooting sports both live birds and clay targets were both not only competitive but spectator events the SXS was the gun used and used well by top shooters across the country. Arthur DuBray made his living selling Parkers to shooters who were not only being endorsed by gun company but by ammo companies as well.

I doubt you will see a Beretta on a Grouse Moore across the pond.

In 1948 my Grandfather won the class C championship at the Detroit Gun Club by breaking 200 straight from 16 yards. I have the trophy he won. According to my Mom his favorite trap gun was a Parker.

[Tom Jay]

An Outdoor Life article on The Rise and Fall of the American Side-by-Side Shotgun, The highs and lows of a classic icon

https://www.outdoorlife.com/rise-and-fall-american-side-by-side-shotgun?K1kQZtlua00sfOpq.03

[John Campbell]

There are a few nuggets of wisdom in this piece. If you know how to read into them.

No. 1:

"More and more, it appears that the side-by-side shotgun, both American and European, is fated to become a niche item—the Morgan sportscar of the shooting world."

And No. 2:

"...we can never escape one crucial fact: A fine side-by-side is a thing of beauty."

In plain language, the SxS double gun was revived and thrived because it had cachet and appealed to a segment of society that knew what a Morgan was. They also appreciated beauty. Beauty of design, fine craftsmanship... and style.

As these people and their more sophisticated taste leave the marketplace, the magic of great double guns fades from the public's collective conscious.

To be replaced with movie and video game-inspired black guns. Killing machines without soul or grace. Suitable for the mass murder of wildlife. And nothing more.

The perfect reflection of the times in which we live.

[John Dallas]

The Morgan - Ah yes, one of the few cars with a wood frame, and I think the early ones were three wheelers

[Rich Anderson]

I don't think this lack of interest is confined to SXS. Most young people will pick up a synthetic stocked rifle package for under $500 vs a pre64 M70. The nostalgia and panash of the older guns is lost on out youth I'm afraid.

[Rick Losey]

The Morgan - Ah yes, one of the few cars with a wood frame, and I think the early ones were three wheelers

yes there was a three wheel Morgan, the frames were and are steel - the body supports were ash as were many English cars - up to a Rolls
the MG -up to the T series actually had a partial wood frame plus the supports

but the Morgan is a survivor- the newest ones still exude the same class

on topic - i think the SxS has been a niche for a long time - and likely getting to be smaller - since our fathers (for us old guys) came home from WWII

when it was time for me to get my own gun - we went to the shop and I picked out a 20 ga SxS - a Fox B if i remember correctly- my father asked why i wanted one of those old fashion guns and bought me a 16ga pump gun

as for the new shooters- first there are many fewer of them- and secondly - most of us i would bet grew into doubles, the new shooters go with what they can afford and what is advertised to them

[John Dallas]

The Morgan assembly line

[Tom Jay]

I've been fortunate to have a son (now 23) who blesses every American side by side I own. He loves the look and chit chat of other shooters at the sporting clays range with their semi-autos, pumps, 30"/32" O/U's when he brings out the hammer Parker or Model 21 with 26" barrels and nary missing a shot. Smokes them all. We've both been blessed with a family heritage and tradition of good guns and even better dogs (Llewellins, of course)...a spirit I believe will be lost in the next 50 years if not sooner and that's sad.

[Mills Morrison]

The decline is not limited to guns either. I understand the antique furniture market is way down (like 1/3 down). Old books, which I have collected, are down from historical highs as well. The question is whether it is permanent or just a down trend of a cycle.

[Dean Romig]

John Campbell nailed it in a few short paragraphs.

I believe our classic SXS collecting and shooting niche is in a trough between two swells. Almost everything once appreciated for its classic style and beauty eventually comes back into style, if even briefly and as a new-found fad. Problem is, we old guys may not live long enough to enjoy the resurgence of these things we loved.





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[Marty Kohler]

Dean.... I really hope you are right.... for if that is the case then I will worry much less for our younger generation.... praying....

[Rick Losey]

The Morgan assembly line

Right - those are the body panel supports

[Todd Poer]

Its probably a very complex answer and I can think of a few things that even the author of article did not mention that are maybe contributing factors, but I think he captured the broader essence of the issue. I also think its just as complex to figure out why upland game numbers are down all across the Eastern U.S. Its not just one thing or even a handful of things that are making a difference, but a lot of different issues.

Ya know even in writing that article, who is the audience that he is trying to reach. It resonates with people that participate in this forum and others but in the long run. I mean the new market does not even probably read Outdoor Life. The medium they communicate is social media and videos.

Put it this way, I heard this several years ago, think of all the video or broadcasts that the big three NBC, CBS, ABC ever put out since the dawn of television in the 50's. I mean thats years and decades ahead of the internet content. Youtube every single month has more content loaded up by people than those 3 networks ever produced in their entire history combined and that happens every single month.

For giggles go and to youtube and do a search for Parker SXS, or LC Smith, or for that matter on any side by side. There is some content but not as much as you think. Heck I even enjoyed watching Larry Potterfield and an English gunsmith taking an English Boxlock apart. Fascinating to us but others could care for naught.

My advice is to get more content and videos of guys using not just Parkers but any and all SXS's. Sticking it in a magazine, well maybe it reaches the younger generations. Maybe there is an S Curve for demand, supply and price that ebbs and flows, but I'll bet the frequency, wave length and peaks are diminishing as time marches on. There just has to be a need and a want and in my opinion that combination alone is most simplistic hurdle. Their is no or limited need for SxS's with so many other options and hence limited want. Actually the probably the biggest competitor to a SXS is the O/U, which is considered easier to shoot and not much of change from the semi-autos that shooters familiar with both can interchange. Gunfit is an issue, etc. etc.

Like I said, its a crazy stew to figure out.

[Christian Gish]

Maybe we should have a 2 shell capacity in pumps and autoloading shotguns for hunting. In my limited experience the third shot is a waste of a shell anyway.

[Patrick Lien]

I showed the article and this thread to my 20 year old son who's first gun was a Parker and already understands the qualities that make these guns special. He just smiled and said " that just means I will own a full set of high grades for pennies on dollar". I told him I thought this was unlikely.

I wonder if the author of the article has ever owned, shot, or desired a nice Parker shotgun? My opinion is that vintage SxS shotguns are an acquired taste both from a financial and functional standpoint and there is a price point for every budget and taste. I have no problem with being in this minority.

I think the day after the Winchester Model 12 was introduced the gun writers of the day started writing of the demise of the SxS shotgun and it has continued through today. Yet Parkers keep coming to market and the good ones continue to sell for more money than ever before. If you are buying them purely to make money then I think you may be disappointed at some point. I have found that buying a vintage shotgun is just about the easiest thing in the world and selling one for what I value it at is much harder. Who's problem is that, buyer or seller? This problem is resolved by buying high and selling low and then telling myself not to do that again(never works). Having said all that, I need a BHE 20 really bad. So, if you have one and want to beat the pending crash and sell it for only half price please contact me. :)

Patrick

[Dean Romig]

It has ever and always been a market driven by the gun and ammunition manufacturers. 'Newer is better' - 'Firepower is more important than the well-placed shot' - 'Innovation trumps the tried and true' and in some cases this may be true... like in self-defense or in military situations. If these manufacturers are to stay in business they MUST promote their product in this manner. Manufacturers of the classic SXS guns in today's marketplace KNOW they advertise and sell to a niche market and know the vast majority of today's gun buyers have been 'conditioned' ne brainwashed by the constant beating of that drum and the March of time.





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[Henry McRoberts]

As Fred said maybe the third shot in upland hunting is a waste. Years ago I had a Browning Double Automatic. It was 12g. and I think they were called a " Twelvette ". I have not seen one in years and don't know how long Browning made them. There was also a 20ga. After that gun I tended to lean to M12 Win. and SxS when I could afford a decent one. I think Browning brought the Double Auto's out in the 50's, but they obviously did not last.

[Dean Romig]

I think Browning brought the Double Auto's out in the 50's, but they obviously did not last.


Right - The guys who couldn't hit anything with two shots thought they needed more firepower.... :shock:





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[John Dallas]

The Springer Spaniel Field Trial manual for gunners says that the gun will be a "fixed breech, 12 gauge, well choked". No need for the third shot

[Mills Morrison]

Having a third shot never helped me much back when I shot pump guns.

[Kirk Potter]

IMO for most people it all comes down to cost.. Double guns are always going to cost more to make. Their are some really, really nice autos for the price of some really crappy side by sides.

My 1890 CH adjusted for inflation is $4,153.34. These weren’t cheap even back then.

[John Campbell]

The ethos of the double gun depends greatly on two things;

Cultural/social sophistication and classical sportsmanship.

Without the former, the raison d'être for a double gun doesn't exist. Without the latter, it is doomed.

Sadly, our country is running out of both of these values.

Witness the decline of The Vintagers, etc. And the ads in the latest American Rifleman...

[Richard Flanders]

"Right - The guys who couldn't hit anything with two shots thought they needed more firepower.."

Dean nailed one of the main issues with the comment above. Blame the gun not the shooter. It's the same exact issue as with modern fly fishing gear going from older soft action rods that make a fisherman work at learning how to cast to very stiff rods that anyone can cast. I spent much of my youth in the back yard with grandpas 9.5ft cane rod casting a hookless fly into a hula hoop way out in the yard. When was the last time you saw someone do that? For whatever reason, people just don't want to take the effort to learn how to do something like shooting or fly fishing; they just want instant results. Hand any impatient Millennial a nice old soft Shakespeare or cane fly rod with a braided line and you'll see this. I hear that people can't shoot S/S guns because the two barrels are confusing or something. Seriously? Does anyone in this bunch believe that? I sure don't. That issue sure didn't seem to hamper some of the early 20th century shooting champions who ran course after course. I could rarely hit anything with a shotgun until I carefully read Churchills and Bob Bristers books on the issue. I bought into the Churchill method, practiced it carefully and increased my shooting percentage dramatically. I just takes work, a concept that many young shooters don't seem to grasp.

[Bill Mullins]

A quote from an old Indian guide:
" One shot.....game!"
"Two shots.....maybe!"
"Three shots..never!"

[Ted Hicks]

"I hear that people can't shoot S/S guns because the two barrels are confusing or something."

I've heard this too usually with reference to sight picture and fast target acquisition. Apparently it is easier for some folks to sight along a single barrel compared to SxS. Perhaps a barrel on either side of the bead interferes with target acquisition for side to side moving targets? I don't know. I've heard this from new shooters that have had formal instruction and the advice from the instructor was to avoid a SxS for this reason.

I would venture to say that it is not a matter of them not being able to do it, but more likely the instructor says it is easier to shoot O/U or single-barrel, so they opt for that as an easier and faster way to become proficient. Hopefully there are some that move on to a SxS, perhaps as they get into bird hunting.

[Rich Anderson]

I saw a friend of mine miss a rabbit 5 times with a Browning A5. The last three shots were either for show, frustration or impulse. When the bunny came back around I nailed him with a Parker 28. And FWIW his A5 was a 12:eek:

[Mills Morrison]

I saw a friend of mine miss a rabbit 5 times with a Browning A5. The last three shots were either for show, frustration or impulse. When the bunny came back around I nailed him with a Parker 28. And FWIW his A5 was a 12:eek:

That is how it works. Does not surprise me. Also, not having the third shot, you can always delude yourself that you would have hit the target if you had the third shot.

[John Dallas]

I dunno. Look at the guns used in National skeet, trap or clays tournaments. You will almost never see a S x S. Those guys must know something

[Mills Morrison]

For whatever reason, over and unders and automatics are pretty much the guns used by professional shooters these days.

[John Dallas]

Can you say "Single Sighting Plane?

[Mills Morrison]

That is true, but you don't see many pumps either

[John Dallas]

One less thing to screw up. Can you say "Short Stroke"?

[Todd Poer]

We may have to get the resident metallurgist Edgar to weigh in, but I think some of the pros have figured out for consistent shooting that sxs have some barrel flex. O/U's I think have it some but its supposedly more manageable.

I have heard about barrel flex before but, I don't know. Here is an article on it, maybe something to it.

https://shotgunreport.com/2016/04/06/barrel-flip/

[Dean Romig]

I don't buy that...





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[todd allen]

A quick lesson on hitting a flying target with a SxS.
Rule # 1: See the bird, shoot the bird. If you're seeing the bbls, go back to rule #1

[Pete Lester]

I would not dismiss the value of having a third shot, as a long time waterfowler I can tell you a third shell in the gun can be very handy in the event of a swimming cripple. It can be the difference between retrieving or losing a bird. A third shot can also be used effectively on decoying geese (when the limit allows more than 2 birds) because they can't get away from the decoys that fast. With that said, I prefer old doubles for the same reason most of you do. I was up to Cabela's in Scarborough last week, I don't think they had ten used double guns in their Gun Library.

[Dean Romig]

Pete, what do you deduce from the fact they have fewer than ten doubles? Cabelas not taking them in? They are selling faster than they can replace inventory? People are not trading them in so much anymore?......





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[Dean Romig]

Re: barrel flex - I know barrel flex can be a factor in rifle shooting, especially with the very high performance/muzzle velocity/muzzle energy cartridges... but not with a shotgun that was bored and choked to produce consistent patterns of pellet count in a specific dia. circle at a specific yardage. Barrel flex in a rifle might cause variations of fractions of an inch at 100 yards or some other specific yardage but a variation of fractions of an inch, or even an inch or two in a shotgun won't make a bit of difference at 40 yards.





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[Brett Souder]

The Cabelas by me does not want anything to do with buying them. The manager there has no experience with them and you can tell that he knows more about military surplus weapons because that what he collects and purchases for the store. I tried to sell them a Winchester model 21 16 gauge in WS1 and WS2 and they offered me $3,000.00 for it, the manager said they really don't sell well. Sold that weekend at OGCA for $6,500.00.

[Pete Lester]

Pete, what do you deduce from the fact they have fewer than ten doubles? Cabelas not taking them in? They are selling faster than they can replace inventory? People are not trading them in so much anymore?......

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I suspect it's a combination of factors but my guess is this particular Cabelas and probably many of them in the country have a hard time finding staff who can properly identify, evaluate and fairly appraise antique side by sides and they are not taking them in like they once did. This would lead to missed opportunities, overpaying then overpricing a gun, taking in guns with defects but not pricing them accordingly leading to a smaller stagnant inventory.

[Todd Poer]

I don't buy that...





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Mind justifies the heart and I love my sxs's as much as next guy that also enjoy's theirs. But for sake of discussion and if someone is neutral and faced with the knowledge of pros and cons for of choosing between an O/U, SXS, or Semi Automatic then its a knock. Might not matter to the weekend warrior busting brush but if the game is at the highest level of competitive shooting then it might be a factor. Hence someone suggessted or asked why don't you see the pros using SXS in competition well...this might be one of the reasons. It might not be "the" reason but I am also not a competitive shooter.

Heck for some reason I have a Ruger O/U in arsenal that was designed for sporting clays. It definitely works in that environment pretty well and I shoot in the 80's with it pretty consistently but I don't shoot that much. Take my sxs's to same course and I lose 8 to 10 breaks. Is it me or the gun, it could be mostly me and some gun, (more likely), or it could be mostly gun and a little bit of me. My vote is against me but results are the same. BTW I did take that Ruger on a quail hunt once and crushed it, but at the end of the day I was fatigued some. That gun also weighs about 2.5 pounds more than my sxs's so lugging it around in the brush was not as fun.

Could it be that some gun flexing is putting target in edge of pattern more than with other, maybe. But if difference in winning or loosing comes down to one clay in a competition which gun do you choose. Hence, there are many lighter O/U's I can lean to and have a lighter O/U that I can carry into the woods and I shoot it very well for me. But I like the look, feel and the way a sxs carries in the field. I have the luxury of choice. But there are many young shooters that don't have that choice and if they can pick a more utilitarian gun that is a double gun, then they lean to the O/U and don't look back.

[George Stanton]

I have even seen hostility toward sxs shooters. At a springtime sxs shoot in PA a few years ago, a group of course 'regulars' were following our sxs group. They of course we're riding a very expensive 4 person buggy with metal flake paint and chrome wheels. We were walking. Their guns were painted wild colors and I think one of them had a chrome plated o/u. After a few stations one of them approached our group and asked if we used kerosene lamps and candles in our homes. Did we drive a horse and buggy to the course? If no to these questions then why were we shooting old fashioned guns? And he was actually angry. We simply told him we shoot the guns that we like. He also said we must not care about our score. We told him we cared about our shooting but our score on clays was not that big a deal. I will say that after following us around the course, they realized that we were shooting about as well as their group and they got a bit friendlier. The anger about our gun choice surprised me.

[Pete Lester]

I have even seen hostility toward sxs shooters. At a springtime sxs shoot in PA a few years ago, a group of course 'regulars' were following our sxs group. They of course we're riding a very expensive 4 person buggy with metal flake paint and chrome wheels. We were walking. Their guns were painted wild colors and I think one of them had a chrome plated o/u. After a few stations one of them approached our group and asked if we used kerosene lamps and candles in our homes. Did we drive a horse and buggy to the course? If no to these questions then why were we shooting old fashioned guns? And he was actually angry. We simply told him we shoot the guns that we like. He also said we must not care about our score. We told him we cared about our shooting but our score on clays was not that big a deal. I will say that after following us around the course, they realized that we were shooting about as well as their group and they got a bit friendlier. The anger about our gun choice surprised me.

I don't know about hostility but I have observed people not taking shooters of classic doubles seriously. Five years ago eight of us went on a spring snow goose hunt in upstate NY. Five of us were shooting doubles including Frank Cronin with his 5 frame hammer ten. Our guide was not too impressed with our choice of guns as people are usually shooting semi autos with extended magazines. He was overheard talking to his boss on the phone after the first group of snows came in and we dropped a bunch of them that we knew what we were doing lol!

[John Campbell]

Pete, what do you deduce from the fact they have fewer than ten doubles? Cabelas not taking them in? They are selling faster than they can replace inventory? People are not trading them in so much anymore?......





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While I know not what logic Cabela's may have, I do know what I was told at Jaqua's in Findlay OH.

About a year ago I dropped off about six very nice SxS guns, thinking they just might buy them outright, which has happened in the past. No. They reluctantly took them on consignment, saying "these were really popular a while back, but not so much anymore..."

They still took the guns, but only three out of the six have sold in almost 18 months. And Jaqua's sells a LOT of upscale guns. No shock to find Purdeys or an H&H on the rack.

I have my own opinions of Cabela's/Bass Pro Shops.

Bottom line: Love 'em and shoot 'em if you got 'em. Just like that '63 Stingray in your garage... it's a personal thing.

[Phil Yearout]

My local Cabela's has about 4-5 sxs guns in the racks, and those same 4-5 have been there for a long time. I have seen 2 or 3 come and go over the past few years, but that's about it.

I lovingly refer to the guys I hunt with as the "12-gauge-autoloader-with-the-plug-out-crowd" and they think nothing of shooting 'em dry at whatever flies. They don't understand - and never will - why someone would go to the trouble if they're gonna pack a gun with only two shots in it.

[Rich Anderson]

If owning and shooting a SXS puts me in the minority then sign me up! I have a Rem 1100 20ga that belonged to my little brother, he has been gone for 35 years and i have never shot the gun. There are two Win M42's in my possession but for the life of me I can't remember using one in the last 10-15 years. I have no O/U's. Everything I shoot shotgun wise be it for game or clays is a SXS.

[Todd Poer]

I am not big in the shooting circles but this guy shoots Perazzi's O/U and he could even shoot one of their sxs, so why doesn't he. I'd bet he would if they wanted him to move a few guns for them. I think they make a SXS but its only a 12 gauge.

Anyway its a cool video and that is amazing to break targets at over a hundred yards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teixm6JMw_k

[Dean Romig]

I guess it's all what you believe in for a gun. If you believe a Perazzi will break clays better and more consistently than an old SXS then for heaven's sake, shoot your Perazzi...

At my skeet club our champion registered skeet shooter Zeno Marcos and I were shooting a round of informal skeet, he with his custom Perazzi with 20 ga. tubes in it and I was shooting a 16 ga. Grade 1 hammer gun and he was teasing me about me not being able to afford a Perazzi. I let it roll off... I had only dropped two birds and he was upset at himself for dropping one. I was shooting low gun - he of course, wasn't. We got to station 8 and he asked if I wanted to try his gun. I had never shot a Perazzi before and I said "Sure." He said in his thick Greek accent "But you can no shoot a Perazzi from down there you gotta mount da gun first."
He passed me the gun and a shell and I smashed the high house bird starting from low gun position. He was surprised. I turned around and faced the low house. Zeno said "You GOTTA mount da gun first! You will never hit this one from down low!" I asked him for two shells and told the trapper to give me two from the low house. Again I swung the gun up from a very low position - at about my waist - and diesel-smoked both of them. Zeno took his gun and just walked away shaking his head.

Trust me, it wasn't the gun....





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[Mills Morrison]

I have tried to get some of our top shooters at our gun club to give side by sides a try and they just don't want to do it. I haven't given up though.

[Kirk Potter]

I never personally knew anyone who shot one, but so much of upland hunting for me has to do with the history of it.. I never saw any beautiful old painting with setters and autoloaders.

[Rich Anderson]

IMHO there are no experts left in places like the Gun Library. The "collector guns" are a finite resource just as the people who are knowledgeable in these guns are. The employees look at a computer screen and see what was paid for a similar Parker, Fox, Winchester etc and base there values on that. I'm currently trying to deal with the Reno store on a rifle but they won't answer my questions. Remember this as well Cabellas has a minimum mark up of 30% on the rifle I'm considering there trying to make 50%+.

Perhaps we as SXS aficionados are a dying breed and maybe we won't recover the value we put into a gun at least monetarily speaking. The enjoyment I get from carrying a light well balance small bore following a pointing dog in the grouse coverts or pheasant fields transcends any amount of money.

[Jerry Harlow]

I suspect it's a combination of factors but my guess is this particular Cabelas and probably many of them in the country have a hard time finding staff who can properly identify, evaluate and fairly appraise antique side by sides and they are not taking them in like they once did. This would lead to missed opportunities, overpaying then overpricing a gun, taking in guns with defects but not pricing them accordingly leading to a smaller stagnant inventory.

I've been to the Cabelas in Richmond, VA and am just amazed at the prices. The other night there were two 12 gauge Trojans that looked as if they had been run over by a truck. One was missing a floor plate screw that had been drilled out. Stocks could not be saved with a refinish. The prices were $1695. I asked where did these prices come from and I was told it was based upon what they paid. Poor suckers. I looked at an A5 Light 12 in similar condition. $999. The Parkers were $300 guns at most and the A5 was the same value and that is stretching it. They never check chokes to know if the barrels are cut or not, just set a price. They had a 20 Trojan one time and told me it was Mod. and Full. It was cyl/cyl with two inches whacked off. You don't want to ask the price. With prices like this, you can see why none of the new generation will ever buy a vintage double.

[Todd Poer]

Dean like your story with the Perazzi guy. Too funny. I learned a long, long, long time ago to never underestimate or overestimate someones shooting prowess based on what kind of gun they were toting. I know too many country boys that would show up to a dove shoot in blue jeans and a white T-shirt shooting a beat up pump shotgun and walk out with bag of mixed shells and not miss a dang bird. They just know how to shoot. Also got the misfortune of quail hunting the same area as this guy using that same old gun. He had a decent dog, but that guy was a covey killer. He was hunting for the pot so there is no convincing him about fine qualities of a double barrel.

The French say hunger makes the best sauce. I say hunger makes the best shots.

[Ed Blake]

Can you say "Single Sighting Plane?

I’ve never bought into the single sighting plane thing. When I shoot i don’t see the sighting plane, whether it’s an O/U or SxS. I think that originated as a marketing catch phrase. JMO. And Mills is right about furniture: young folks want painted, utilitarian, cheap stuff from IKEA. Try and sell a piece of walnut furniture. It will be interesting to see all the deals at the Southern this Spring. If dealers/sellers want to move guns they will put realistic prices on their stuff. And bring cash.

[Ed Blake]

I've been to the Cabelas in Richmond, VA and am just amazed at the prices. The other night there were two 12 gauge Trojans that looked as if they had been run over by a truck. One was missing a floor plate screw that had been drilled out. Stocks could not be saved with a refinish. The prices were $1695. I asked where did these prices come from and I was told it was based upon what they paid. Poor suckers. I looked at an A5 Light 12 in similar condition. $999. The Parkers were $300 guns at most and the A5 was the same value and that is stretching it. They never check chokes to know if the barrels are cut or not, just set a price. They had a 20 Trojan one time and told me it was Mod. and Full. It was cyl/cyl with two inches whacked off. You don't want to ask the price. With prices like this, you can see why none of the new generation will ever buy a vintage double.

The Richmond Cabelas is staffed with people who know little or nothing about much of anything. Remington had a special on Gun Club shotshells. Staff there had no idea what Gun Club ammo was. Sad. Most of the stuff in their gun library is a POS. The demise of the SxS is understandable.

[Michael D Hankinson]

The Cabelas in Grandville Michigan really changed recently after they were bought out and the competing Gander Mountain firearms Supercenter closed about a year ago. Many of the guns in their Library have been reduced by 10%, without any pattern that I can see. Doubles , Autos, does not seem to matter and many are still way overpriced. They have two Parkers currently, a V grade for three grand plus and a D grade for about six grand now. At the two recent local gun shows I attended in Grand Rapids area I saw a reduction in prices overall for everything from $100 .22 rifles to old Savage 99's etc. Never seem to see higher quality doubles at these shows. Two major changes in the Gun Library are when they first opened they would buy for about 70% of a guns value, now more like 50% and they are under direction to never buy anything that has a crack in the wood, or even a slight possibility of a crack. None of the original Gun Library personnel are still there and the age of the group appears to have dropped from 65 to 35. Guess that tells us a little.

[Kirk Potter]

Don’t get me started on Gander Mountain.. They priced themselves out of existence.

[Mills Morrison]

Gander Mountain was a joke. Some of the online retailers are as well. Some guns have been on Gunbroker and Gunsinternational since I began going on there.

[Rich Anderson]

I finally heard back from the Gun Library people in Nev. I had to tell them how to figure out the twist rate in a rifle. I have never been in the Grandville MI Cabelas but they have a Ruger M77 in 6.5X55 that's way overpriced and it's been there for at least 6 mos. They paid more than the retail value of this one.

If you want a used Porsche you go to an individual or a Porsche dealer not the local Ford,Chevy dealership that might have one on the lot. If you want a collectible firearm go to a dealer that specializes in them or an individual not a big box retail store.

[Mills Morrison]

True words, Rich.

[Victor Wasylyna]

Don’t get me started on Gander Mountain.. They priced themselves out of existence.

The Gander Mountain by me recently closed down. Now I know why.

I was there once and never returned. The fishing department had more saltwater fishing gear than walleye gear or steelhead gear. It’s hundreds of miles to saltwater, but only a few to some of the best walleye and steelhead fishing in the country. Never made sense to me.

-Victor

[Garth Gustafson]

Gander Mountain filed for bankruptcy last year and was purchased by Camping World, an RV retailer. They plan to rebrand as Gander Outdoor and reopen some stores. The stores will be smaller and more focused on hunting & fishing gear.

[Phil Yearout]

If you want a used Porsche you go to an individual or a Porsche dealer not the local Ford,Chevy dealership that might have one on the lot. If you want a collectible firearm go to a dealer that specializes in them or an individual not a big box retail store.

Rich, absolutely right. But sometimes we find stuff at those places in spite of ourselves :)!

[Bob Brown]

Remember when someone would come on this site saying he was worried he paid too much for a Parker and he would be told " you didn't pay too much for the Parker, you just bought it too soon"? Seems like it was just last year. Wait a minute, it was last year!
I'm not going to worry too much about it. In today's society we're a movie like "A River Runs Through It" away from a boom like there was for fly fishing. Might not happen until after I'm gone, but someday. Until then I'll enjoy what I have and treat it as a buying opportunity if the right one comes along.

[Eric Grims]

My memorable experience on a third shot:
A number of years ago I was hunting with my Nickel steel Mod. 12. I was stepping over a big rotten log and was a bit off balance when I jumped a rabbit, shot and missed. No big deal as he just went a little ways and I'm already thinking rabbit Étouffée. Then for gosh sakes I made a very poor shot and missed the second time. Embarrassed and a bit ticked off I shucked the third shell a little too hard, still off balance, and the gun slam fired. The next thing I know I'm knocked off balance and sitting on my butt in the mud.
I think of this whenever contemplating that third shot. The SxS now protects me from myself.