Heavy Duck gun on a clays course

[Frank Srebro]

Wednesday was pretty decent weather-wise and my gang got out to shoot clays for the first time since last year. 20 degrees early on and about 40 when we left. We had 8 shooters in our group = 6 with competition clays guns, one Baker hammer gun, and I shot one of my Winchester M-12 Heavy Duck guns - this one an earlier solid rib 32-incher. I'd dug her out of the safe for ducks a couple of weeks ago but it's been way too cold and iced in, and our quacker season ends tomorrow. These HD's have a sighting plane that's almost 3" longer than a side by side with the same length barrels. Way cool for those tall ones and long crossers over the water but maybe not so good with that Full choke and on a mixed range clays course? Anyway, it must have been a lucky day; this one ended up only 2 ex 100 birds less than our squad's top shooter on Wednesday. :) She’s shown here flanked by a tricked out Beretta gas gun and a Model 12 30-inch Vent Rib Trap.

[Mills Morrison]

I have a Model 12 16 gauge and have been severely tempted to get a Heavy Duck

[Daryl Corona]

Nice shooting Frank. I also dug my 1940 solid rib, 30" M12 out of the safe and took it out yesterday and shot a few geese with it. The guys I hunt with never know what gun I will show up with so it makes for some interesting conversation until the birds start moving. They all shoot camo auto's.
As a sidebar- I'm really impressed with the new Rio bismuth loads 1 1/8-4's. Last bird of our limit was an honest 50 yard, 1 shot kill. It's been a great season for geese with a few ducks thrown in.

[Rick Losey]

have been severely tempted to get a Heavy Duck

join the club- just pay attention to the chokes :rolleyes:

i find it is not uncommon to find someone opened them, sometimes a lot, for steel shot-

i have sent a couple back that i was assured were righteous

[Jeff Christie]

I use my Heavy Duck when I leave the EH 10 at home. I had my HD choke opened up (to .707) and never looked back. It patterns steel BB and BBB beautifully. I only hunt geese. With the original full the only shell it would pattern adequately was 2s and I was crippling more than I found acceptable. I am 74 years old, have cancer and have quit caring about what "value" means (translation don't give a $h1t). It is all about life and enjoying every moment we are given. Someone else can worry. I actually thought about choke tubes (blasphemy) but was enuf of a purist to avoid that temptation. This is for Mills- yield to temptation- get a HD. You will have a great time with it.

[Mills Morrison]

The one I was looking at got away. Will keep looking . . . I had pledged not to get any more guns this year, but that resolution is broken

[Stephen Hodges]

Mills, buy one and you will not regret it. i bought one last summer off the forum and had a lot of fun duck hunting with it this fall. I also shot a few clays with it and you would be amazed at how far out you can cursh one:shock:

[Joe Dreisch]

With all of this talk of opening chokes on HD guns I got out my 1940 30" solid rib gun this morning and measured it. Bore is .730. Choke starts 3" from muzzle and ends with a 3/4" long parallel .693 at the muzzle (.037 constriction). Is that about correct for that era Heavy Duck?
Thanks, Joe

[Daryl Corona]

Mine is not a heavy duck Joe but my dimensions are exactly like yours.

[Jeff Christie]

I ran steel BBs in mine as well as hevishot BB before I moved over to the dark side and opened it up a bit. It just produced unacceptable patterns except with 2s. I primarily hunt big heavy Canadas. Opening up works super for me. Might not for everyone. I think my choke measured .693 as well. It is a used but not abused 1953 gun. Now I try to use my EH most of the time. It is just too much fun to leave it at home.

[James L. Martin]

I have 3 model 12 full choke guns, a 30" trap & a 28" field both have .730 bore and .035 choke ,a 30" 3" duck's bore is .731& a choke of .031.

[Frank Cronin]

Joe,

I have a pre-war M12 HD 32" solid rib. Weighs 8.92 lbs.

.728 bore; .695 at the muzzle .033 choke

[Joe Dreisch]

Thanks, everybody, for the replies. It is interesting that there is some variance in constriction but a few of ours are quite similar. Frank, that is one beautiful shotgun. I just love the way the early models were configured and finished. I got mine with spring gobbler and Super X lead #4s in mind. Have to get to a pattern board soon.... Joe

[Stephen Hodges]

Here is mine.

[Frank Cronin]

Joe,

Get yourself some 3" Winchester Longbeards XL for this spring. I did testing last year with these with the HD and the patterns are unbelievable.

https://youtu.be/hLwRYMV0K7E

[James L. Martin]

I have been using Winchester longbeard shells for the last 2 Turkey seasons, they pattern better than any load I have ever used. I took a Turkey each year with them.

[Frank Srebro]

With all of this talk of opening chokes on HD guns I got out my 1940 30" solid rib gun this morning and measured it. Bore is .730. Choke starts 3" from muzzle and ends with a 3/4" long parallel .693 at the muzzle (.037 constriction). Is that about correct for that era Heavy Duck?
Thanks, Joe

Joe, those parameters are typical for Model 12 Heavy Duck guns. Winchester put a lot of research effort into boring and chokes and was cautious (as compared with at least two other makers) in advertising 70 to 75% patterns for the Heavy Duck. That was with the 12 ga/3-inch 1-5/8 ounce load that essentially duplicated the heavy progressive 1-5/8 ounce loading in the "Short Ten".

[charlie cleveland]

i have a model 12 12 ga with 2 3/4inch chamber with a cutts choke on it really shoots good just don t like the looks of the cutts choke even though it does the job...charlie

[davidboyles]

I owned a solid rib 1955 HD all original I bought 7-8 years ago. Really powdered two big gobblers with it one time who both decided they need to commit to sacrificing themselves one after the other. Also banged a few ducks it was a great long range bomber but due to shoulder problems I readily delt it in a trade last year for a pristine DHE 20 ga original 3" 30" bbls 1925 gun that is a joy to look at and shoot. Was made for a guy that belonged to a San Antonio gun club started in 1910 Blue Wing Hunt Club and is still in existence!!!! Frank thanks for comments on Model 12's I love my other 3 -20, 16 12 skt and 410 all solid ribs.

[Dave Noreen]

I would presume that the pre-WWII Model 12 Heavy Ducks through the early 1950s were bored for the 12-gauge 3-inch Magnum 1 5/8 ounce Super-X and Super-Speed loads that were brought out along with the Heavy Duck in 1935. I bought a very late Model 12 HD, in 1974, for duck hunting in Alaska, 1,9xx,xxx serial number range. The shells I had were Western compression formed Super-X, Mark 5, 1 5/8 ounce loads with #4 and #6 shot. I had plenty of time and shot five patterns with each shell and with the #6 my gun averaged 63% and with the #4 just shy of 70%. I've often wondered if these later Model 12 Heavy Ducks were bored for the 1 7/8 ounce 12-gauge 3-inch Magnums brought out in 1954? Since I came back to the lower 48 the next year the Model 12 HD has languished in the back corner of the safe and my old Super-Fox was usually gotten the nod when longer range work might be in order.

[Frank Srebro]

I've been a sucker for good Model 12 HD guns ever since I hunted with my first one, many moons ago near Moosonee at the southern tip of Hudson Bay. Some good stories came out of that trip. :cool:

I probably have too many HDs right now but it's so hard to part with one, especially a solid ribber.

Dave commented on the 3-inch/1-7/8 ounce lead shot load. They work OK in HDs and I've shot a lot of them in years past but IME their recoil is a bit too much in these ~ 8-3/4 pound HD guns. They were designed for H.V. 1-5/8 ounce loads and nowadays that's the max lead or non-tox shot load I'll use in a HD for long range work.

Here's another M-12 Heavy Duck, a 30-inch solid rib, straight grip/wood upgrade with somewhat higher and longer stock dimensions than standard. 1947 gun with .729" bore and 34 points of choke. Too nice to hunt with? Naaaah.

[John Dallas]

Has anyone else heard of (or experienced) a failure to eject when shooting a Heavy Duck gun on straight overhead shots? I understand it's rather common, with no one able to define why the problem occurs. Maybe Brad B. can tell me

[Brett Souder]

I have seen more solid rib Heavy Duck guns than I see non rib guns. Has anyone else noticed this.

[Frank Srebro]

I haven't and I've been checking the on-line sites (GB and GI) almost daily for years now. Just subjectively I'd say the proportion is about 5 plain barrel to one solid ribbed.

[Brett Souder]

I haven't and I've been checking the on-line sites (GB and GI) almost daily for years now. Just subjectively I'd say the proportion is about 5 plain barrel to one solid ribbed.

It maybe that my eyes have been focused on spotting solid rib guns and I tend to pass over the others. I do prefer solid rib to vent ribs and non ribbed guns.

[Rick Losey]

Brett

If you found a cache of solid rib un-messed with HD's

Please send me the link :rotf:

[Brett Souder]

Rick,
There are no links for me to pass on. I just called a gun dealer friend of mine and he just sold the last one I saw over the holidays. I will pass along to you contact information when I see another.

[Rick Losey]

Thanks. I was just funning with ya

We all surf the same sites, that is why it's nice to see something one of us finds that shows up up out of the blue

I stopped in a little out of the way LGS the other day. He normally has a couple m12 field guns. No HD yet. But I keep looking when I go by one of those shops- eventually one will show up when I have mad money in hand

I did look for longer than I should at a very great condition Stevens sidlock hammer gun, those always seem to be mostly used up - this one was a real survivor assuming no one would restore a Stevens

if it had been anything other than a 12 it would have been harder to put it down

[Matt Buckley]

Do you Winchester 12 guys have any idea how many Heavy Duck's were made with factory straight stocks? You don't see many for sale in that configuration.

[James L. Martin]

Can't be many, there are no records that I know of, Winchester charged extra for straight grip, $5.00 in 1956 for example. So any straight grip HD was a special order.

[Rick Losey]

its not perfect

but after a long search and getting burned multiple times on "full choke" "unaltered" guns that have had the chokes reamed -or in one case the bore having been honed out 10 thousands -

finally an honest, even if well worn, HD 32" solid rib with .035 chokes, it tips the scales at 8lbs 12 oz

bluing is decent, although worn where you would expect - and for some reason the varnish is flaking off the comb- easy to touch up - the pad is surprising soft for its age

depending on which chart you use it was made at the end of 1938 or the beginning of 1939,

all in all- for what I paid, i am pretty happy with it - Like I said earlier - my first duck hunting mentor was a dedicated M12 guy - I'll hunt it occasionally and think of him each time -

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=588&pictureid=9906

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=588&pictureid=9907vhttp://

[James L. Martin]

Very nice, I have a 30" plain barrel one but that's the one on my want list. Hard to beat model 12's.

[Stephen Hodges]

Rick, congratulations, that is a keeper:) I love the solid rib. In fact, i have a solid rib gun coming next week, my 2nd HD.

[Frank Cronin]

Well done Rick! Solid rib 32" pre-war HD M12's are not easy to find.

I love mine. Enjoy!!

[Frank Cronin]

Rick, congratulations, that is a keeper:) I love the solid rib. In fact, i have a solid rib gun coming next week, my 2nd HD.

Now you have two? How did you get this addiction to pumps all of the sudden?? Model 12's, Remington Model 17's...... :whistle:

[Frank Srebro]

Pre-spring fever, after some bad weather my gang got out yesterday to shoot sporting clays. I had the M-12 Heavy Duck, 32-inch solid rib gun that's shown in the first post. We had 6 in the squad, all competition clays guns except for the HD. She's not quite a sporting clays gun at about 8-3/4 pounds and with Full choke but she finished in second place, only 3 ex 100 birds behind the top shooter Allen with his Browning over/under. Here's a couple of pics while on the course. Lots of fun shooting these vintage pump guns! This one was made pre-war and she cranked out 100 shots without a hiccup. Actually one of our guys broke a hammer on his Beretta gas gun and had to put in his spare trigger group. No need to carry spare parts with the Winny M-12. Ha.

[Andrew G Thompson]

Nice shooting Frank. I also dug my 1940 solid rib, 30" M12 out of the safe and took it out yesterday and shot a few geese with it. The guys I hunt with never know what gun I will show up with so it makes for some interesting conversation until the birds start moving. They all shoot camo auto's.
As a sidebar- I'm really impressed with the new Rio bismuth loads 1 1/8-4's. Last bird of our limit was an honest 50 yard, 1 shot kill. It's been a great season for geese with a few ducks thrown in.

Same thing in my blinds. they
call me smoke pole when I bring my doubles

[Brett Souder]

How rare is a 1954 Winchester model 12 Heavy Duck, 30", checkered stock and forearm, with a round post vent rib? I looked at one today and its in great original condition, except for a replacement pad. Please let me know your thoughts, Thanks

[Rick Losey]

How rare is a 1954 Winchester model 12 Heavy Duck, 30", checkered stock and forearm, with a round post vent rib? I looked at one today and its in great original condition, except for a replacement pad. Please let me know your thoughts, Thanks

not a lot of vent ribs from the factory as i understand it

to tell if it is a factory vent rib- look for the proof marks on the top where the barrel and receiver join- if the rib is factory - there will be a proof mark on the left side of the barrel near the rib- it the barrel left the factory plain - the proof would have been on the center top of the barrel and would have been covered by the add on rib


i did see one on GB a while back - checkered wood and correct marks - they do exist

[Brett Souder]

Thanks for the reply Rick,
It does have the proof mark on the side and choke is still full according to a Brass drop in gauge. The rib is the Special Winchester vent rib with the donut post. Could you place a high low estimate based on the description i have provided with gun in 85%-90% condition.
Thanks, Brett

[Frank Srebro]

There was a nice looking 30" round-post vent rib HD on GI last year, as I recall it was listed for something like $2250. The rib was proper. I don't remember if it had a checkered stock or not, but it languished there for a while and finally went away. Nevertheless they are quite rare and one data point doesn't mean much. With 85% condition and the replacement pad it's not quite a high condition collector gun, and many prefer a solid rib for vintage waterfowl hunting. You'll want to be sure the wood is proper Winchester and not replacements. Sorry I can't come up with a realistic high/low sale value without seeing pics and verifying the tech specs. Just a WAG, 1000 to 1800 or so, again depending on condition and originality.

Dave Riffle has a picture of the "Round Post Donut Base" rib on a 3-inch Heavy Duck gun on page 239 of his book.

[David Lien]

So-ooooooo what are your opinions on this???
Have a 1940 HD 32 IN. Plain barrel .032 choke all original, Has seen plenty of use.

I Have seen these peoples work and it looks damn good to me. They guarantee the gun to shoot 60x40 stacking the beads. I am giving this option a lot of thought. I Have always liked the looks of the Donut Post Rib. At my age the money here is not the issue. Maybe just one good day on the River working on long range pigeons (Heavy loads) is the issue. Or possibly a fast passing Duck. What say you???

Click on this link (((Click on Home))) to see Ribs
http://www.eubanksgunsmithing.com/gunsmithing.html

[Christian Gish]

David,
Roger Eubanks put a rib on a Model 12 field grade for me in about 1989. I put trap wood on it and have shot thousands of trap targets with it (including a 97 at the CA STATE Trap Handicap in 1990). Roger's work is excellent. Fred

[Frank Srebro]

While studying and quietly collecting good Model 12's over many years I've seen plenty of M-12's with aftermarket ribs whether Simmons or others, that languished on the sale sites. Also 60/40 sounds fine for clays but many want hunting guns to shoot flat or nearly so.

In the condition described and without any issues let's say your HD might currently sell for $700-800. If you put $500. + shipping into it for the rib and rebluing, and without additional expense for better or longer wood, you might end up with a gun that's worth about the same $700-800. That's as the market values them nowadays, maybe even less for a quick sale. Plus, you've lost all the memories of past hunts. Of course reworked Model 12's can be excellent guns and I have a couple of them I enjoy shooting, but they aren't collectors and wouldn't sell at even close to the value of originals in similar gauge/configuration. All this is JMO of course.

frank

[Brett Souder]

Question,
Post #1 and #12 are both Pre War but have different forearms. Which one is correct? Or are they both correct?
-Brett

[Brett Souder]

Answer,
I mistakenly thought the first post was referred to as Pre war. I have the same flat bottom forearm on my 1951 32" solid rib gun and felt it wasn't original to my gun.
-Brett

[Tom Flanigan]

I had a model 12 heavy duck gun with a solid rib. I used it from time to time for geese in Virginia. It was a grand old gun and I wish I still had it. I also had an old 20 bore made in the first year of production. It had nickel steel barrels with 25" full choke. I believe this was the first configuration of the model 12. I've always wondered why they the gun was introduced in 20 bore.

[Mills Morrison]

I have a 16 gauge Model 12 that I don't use enough.

[Frank Srebro]

Another Model 12 on the clays course. This one a 1948 Trap Grade, 30-incher with solid matted rib. It's so nice to be able to shoot 100 (relatively) cheap commercial 12-gauge shells for vintage sporting and without having to crank up the MEC.

Well, after shooting the M-12's almost exclusively for sporting clays over a few months now, I'll be getting back in gear with the S x S's in prep for the Northeast at Hausmann's in June.

[Mills Morrison]

Well, thanks in part to this post, I have just acquired a Heavy Duck. Not in as good a condition as some of the others but original pad, 3 inch chambers and 32 inch barrels. Looking forward to shooting it.

[Jeff Christie]

Mills- you will have a great time with your HDG. I wouldn't sweat the condition thing. The gun probably acquired the scars and mars while hunting. Use it and it will gain even more. One thing- don't hesitate to open up the choke a bit. Mine is about .707 and it patterns steel beautifully. Others more purists than I will differ but life is very short so enjoy it. And using a HDG is a lot of fun. Jeff

[Rick Losey]

Well, thanks in part to this post, I have just acquired a Heavy Duck. Not in as good a condition as some of the others but original pad, 3 inch chambers and 32 inch barrels. Looking forward to shooting it.

Welcome to the club

[Phillip Carr]

Not a heavy duck but Just curious how desirable is a model 12 16 gauge made 1955 Skeet gun marked WS1. Plain barrel. Very noce gun. Seems like it would make a great gun for quail.

[Frank Srebro]

Congrats Mills on your Heavy Duck; they are fantastic guns. As Jeff has written, life is short and to each his own on the chokes. JMO but the cost of hunting shells is relatively insignificant and hence I won't open a HD choke for steel shot ….. for me it's bismuth and better yet Kent TM for waterfowl, lead 4's (or 2's where legal) for turkeys and deuces for foxes.

Phil, the early 1950's SKEET guns were catalogued only with matted (solid rib) and with vent rib barrels. If your gun has a plain barrel with factory stamped WS-1 choke, it's likely a special ordered Field gun. Yup. would probably make a good quail or heavy cover woodcock and grouse gun depending on the barrel length.

Anyone interested in a good M12 solid rib Heavy Duck who will be at the Northeast SxS might refer to my Northeast Preview post in the Members' FS section. Reducing the collection.

[Jeff Christie]

I agree the cost of ammunition is always the cheapest part of any hunting equation. I just kill more geese with a little more open barrel and it does pattern a lot better.

[Mills Morrison]

Thanks guys. I will keep the choke as it is. I will get some photos this weekend, or at least try to. I also snagged a LC Smith Long Range and a Parker 12 on a 3 frame, so my waterfowl gun collection is doing well

[charlie cleveland]

mills i have a long range lc smith that has 30 inch modified steel barrels i have shot heavy steel duck loads in it for several years no harm to the barrels and will get them ducks..i too have a model 12 with the cutts choke its like new but i do not shoot it much but really like the looks of the model 12 but just aint a pump man....charlie

[Mills Morrison]

My first shotgun was an 870 20 gauge. Ever since really getting into doubles, I have not shot pumps much at all. Still, looking forward to shooting this one this weekend, assuming it does not rain all weekend

[Rick Losey]

Thanks guys. I will keep the choke as it is. I will get some photos this weekend, or at least try to. I also snagged a LC Smith Long Range and a Parker 12 on a 3 frame, so my waterfowl gun collection is doing well

Decision. Decisions

[Frank Srebro]

I had a model 12 heavy duck gun with a solid rib. I used it from time to time for geese in Virginia. It was a grand old gun and I wish I still had it. I also had an old 20 bore made in the first year of production. It had nickel steel barrels with 25" full choke. I believe this was the first configuration of the model 12. I've always wondered why they the gun was introduced in 20 bore.

Here's a first year nickel steel Model 1912 in 20 bore, 2 barrel set with a low 4 digit serial number. The early production barrels were made 25", this one with Mod choke. The second barrel has matching s/n and is 28" Full choke. Weights: 5^15 and 6^2 respectively. The finish is worn and bright but she's still tight as a tick and ready to hunt, 106 years and counting. You can see her at the Northeast SxS.

[Mills Morrison]

A 20 gauge is next on the model 12 list. An early number would be great. Right now I have some other irons in the fire

[charlie cleveland]

mills when you find 2 model 12- 20 ga s send one of them to me....charlie

[Mills Morrison]

Sure will Charlie.

Shot it today on clays and did decent. Kept reaching for the second trigger and forgetting to pump. Hard to believe I used to shoot a pump so easily