Sould it be illegal to hunt with 8 gauge? [Archive] - Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums

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Ray Masciarella

08-24-2010, 12:37 PM

I would like to hunt with a 8 ga just for the fun of it. Of course, they were outlawed long ago. Maybe for good reason then since waterfowl had been devastated by big bore guns, ie 8 ga, punt guns, etc. That is not true today. What is the difference if I shoot 6 ducks with a modern 10 ga or an old 8 ga? If a modern 10 ga is 3 1/2" and an old 8 ga is 3 1/4" can there be that much difference in the amount of shot? I would think a modern 10 ga would do more damage. Wouldn't it shoot further and hit harder? Has anybody ever studied this?

I have read others say it would be unethical to use a 8 ga. How? 6 ducks is 6 ducks, isn't it? Is it unethical just because some government employee has decided so? I think not. I wonder if anybody organization has ever tried to get these rules changed? Wouldn't be easy since you'd have to convince the feds and then state governments.

To me, this is all government nonsense. Why a 10 ga but not a 8ga? Why 6 ducks and not 7? I still haven't figured out how 3 oz of shampoo is safe to fly with but not 5 oz? Am I crazy?:banghead:

Pete Lester

08-24-2010, 01:14 PM

Guns larger than 10ga were outlawed by the Lacey Act in 1918. Waterfowl populations were on the decline, guns and ammunition had improved greatly (repeaters, nitro powder, choke, fluid steel etc) from the days of muzzle-loading cylinder bores and there was an attempt to institute and regain "fair chase". Remember not only was bore size restricted repeaters were limited to 3 shots as well by this law.

The 10 gauge 3 1/2" magnum had yet to be invented and in hindsight when it was invented I am surprised the law was not amended to limit shell length. Somewhere earlier in the 2000's the Lacey Act was amended limiting shell length to 3 1/2", this was done after the 12ga 3 1/2" came out and rumors began circulating about a "super magnum 10ga" could be developed that was 4" and longer. Steel shot made longer shells ballistically feasible.

I have never shot an 8ga, but I have shot 10ga's. They are vastly more capable than a 12ga and far more effective even when shooting the same shot weight. The bigger bore makes a difference. I have no doubt a good 8ga would be another leap forward in capability from a 10 and could really reach out and touch them. For that reason alone it will most likely remain banned. I just don't see a conservation minded organization like DU championing the return of guns bigger than 10ga.

I would say that for waterfowl hunting since it is federally regulated you don't have much of a chance to reverse a law that is 92 years old. You might have a chance to change state laws to allow it's use for Turkey hunting but again you will have a big job in front of you to do that.

Good luck.

Ray Masciarella

08-24-2010, 03:13 PM

Thanks, Pete.

What I can't understand is there is a limit and 6 ducks are 6 ducks regardless of what gun you use. Things have changed in 92 years. The antiquity of an error is no excuse for its perpetuity! There where no federal bag limits back in 1918. At the time there was a question as to whether the feds could constitutionally regulate the number of waterfowl taken within a state's borders so it was easier to regulate the gun size. That was the old days when the feds still thought the states actually were sovereign and had the right to there own to regulate themselves. In fact, there was even question whether a state could regulate what someone could kill on his own property. Back then Amercians actually had some freedoms.

I did read an article on 12 ga 3 1/2" vs 10 ga. 3 1/2". It claimed that the 12 ga put 90% of the shot on target that a 10 ga did. The point of the article was that you don't get that much more out of a 10 ga and there is less recoil with the 12 ga. Maybe that's why 10 ga's aren't as popular now that we have 12 ga 3 1/2". I haven't hunted ducks with a modern 10 ga. Don't really want to. 12 ga does just fine but it would be cool to use an old 8 ga blowing black powder all over the place.

Here's the plan: Only allow use of old 8 ga guns made before 1918. Keep the limit at 6 ducks. How could anyone argue that would be a problem?

Pete Lester

08-24-2010, 03:36 PM

Ray it's not just the limit of 6 ducks, it is the concept of "fair chase" by limiting the gunners effective range along with the number of shots in the gun. Having just started shooting a 2 7/8" 10 bore this year and learning just how effective it is at long range I would hazard a guess here that a properly configured 8ga could be an effective 90 yard gun.

PS. I don't believe a 12ga 3.5" recoils less than a 10ga 3.5". All the 10ga repeaters are heavy guns, the 12ga super mags in general are not. I also believe anyone who says a 12ga 3.5" will do anything a 10ga 3.5 will do is spoken by a person who is either selling the 12 or never patterned a 10.

chris dawe

08-24-2010, 04:22 PM

I personally see no good reason why an 8 gauge would be outlawed.........just think of all these companie's claiming how they build rifle's that can shoot game at 1000 yrd's ,now sir that is unethical.....just think ,at that distance no matter what calibre choice there gonna be some hang time before impact......the targeted animal could make one step ,or could be stung by a bee or whatever the hell else and the shot could go from the vital's to the gut!!!! just try and close the distance on that poor bugger after a crammy shot.
With today's game law's there is no sensible reason why they(8 gauge gun's ) should be banned.

Ray Masciarella

08-24-2010, 05:27 PM

Pete, you might be right about 12 ga vs 10 ga. I don't hunt waterfoul with a 10 ga tho you may be changing my mind. 12 ga, 10 ga you still need to put the gun on target.

I respect your view, but it has nothing to do with fair chase. When I started turkey hunting years ago you'd be lucky to put 40 pellets in a pie plate at 40 yds. Now I can put 120 pellets at 60 yds due to advances in guns and ammo. Is it unfair? No, those rascals still out fox me! The fairness is in calling them in if you're so inclined. Where I come from you can turkey hunt with a rifle. What is fairer? Calling them in and shooting them with a 60 yard shotgun or sitting in a stand with a 300 yard rifle? They're not in a cage and there is a bag limit.

What's unfair is steel shot! All poor shots like me do is wound ducks! But that's a whole another story. I understand the problem with lead and I have become somewhat politically correct.

The argument that the range with a 8 ga is 90 yards is weak in light of the fact they are hard to hit at 40 yards. How much do you lead them at 90 yds? I probably couldn't even see them at that distance! Surely steel shot, if it could be shot from a 8 ga, would never, ever go 90 yards. I'm not sure lead would be effective at that range but I really have no idea.

It would be a interesting study to see what the real effect would be. My guess is not much in the real world sitting in a blind or up against a tree.

Chris, maybe you and I are starting a movement!

Austin W Hogan

08-24-2010, 05:47 PM

I have some Field & Stream,Forest &Stream, Outdoor Life, etc from the 1890 - 1920 time frame. They contain many letters from individuals and sportsmen's organizations proposing the outlawing of individual calibers and a considerable body of opinion favoring the outlawing of all magazine guns for hunting
According to Charlie's Serialization the last 8 ga Parker was 174013; probably made in 1916.

Best, Austin

Bruce Day

08-24-2010, 06:37 PM

Good luck getting the law changed. Until then, well I'll leave it that I know that a lot a messy geese have been cleaned out from around private ponds with Parker 8ga's shooting lead.

Ray Masciarella

08-24-2010, 07:33 PM

Austin, you must not overlook why sportsmen of that time wanted to outlaw certain caliber. etc. Market hunters had about killed everything at that time. Duck, turkey, deer populations were very low. The exact opposite then we have today. Market duck hunters would hide in the weeds with a 8 ga, wait for ducks to land in the water and when a whole bunch got there, they'd be waylayed as they swam around. So sportsmen objected as they would today. There were no limits and it was felt that Congress could not set limits for constitutional reasons.

Those concerns are not valid today. We have so many regulations that is it almost impossible to hunt anything without committing some violation!!!! Congress no longer worries about the pesky constitution.

What difference would it make if turkey hunters used a 8 ga if rifles are permitted? I challenge anyone to come up the a rational basis to allow turkey hunting with a rifle but not a 8 ga. Besides, even if a few more turkeys were killed with an 8 ga, which really wouldn't happen, how many people would really go buy old 8 ga to shoot them with. Very few. It wouldn't change how many I shoot. The bag limit here is 2. I take 2 every year. What's the difference what I shoot them with. Two more dead turkeys won't hurt the population that has grown yearly for decades despite allowing them to be shot with rifles.

It is interesting how there are different views on the topic. It is something worth giving real study as the results may be surprising.

Rich Anderson

08-24-2010, 10:11 PM

You can legally hunt waterfowl with an 8ga on the other side of the Atlantic.
IMHO it would be more ethical to use an 8ga than a 410 for waterfowl even if the 410 is legal. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right.

King Brown

08-24-2010, 11:17 PM

That's about all we'd need to set us back 50 years, Ray. The issue isn't six ducks, shooting turkeys with rifles, fair chase, constitutional change. It's public acceptance. We're barely tolerated now.

Our sport is polluted with ginks who think bigger is better, and if there's a bigger gauge the ginks will have them whether they can shoot them well or not. Consider the noise, unwanted sound.

For years I've watched these lads who blithely as the Bobbsey Twins close with their barrages where I've hunted with 12s for more than 60 years. For what? A bigger bang, a bigger gun, a fanciful notion?

More galling is that I've yet to see a cannonading gunner who shot any better than those with traditional gauges. Each has a right to pleasure as long as it does not infringe the pleasure of others.

Dean Romig

08-25-2010, 05:47 AM

Very well said King. "It's public acceptance. We're barely tolerated now." If for no other reason, "public acceptance" must be a primary consideration in all that we do with guns today, especially in less than rural places.

King Brown

08-25-2010, 08:13 AM

Dean, unfortunately public acceptance doesn't mean evidence-based reasoning, as Ray suggests. Publics often endorse weird notions. We have to live with what is. As a flier and shooter, I must accommodate majorities for the enjoyment of my pursuits whether it makes sense or not.

Ray Masciarella

08-25-2010, 09:06 AM

Fellas, the "public acceptance" argument, which is also flawed, doesn't answer the question I posed. I was wondering if there is a plausible argument that allowing the use of a rifle, and not an 8 ga, really had something to do with "fair chase" when hunting a turkey or any other big game. I wanted to know what I was overlooking. I could think of a plausible reason not to allow a rifle as they are more dangerous because of the range. Hunters can get killed by a stray bullet a lot faster then stray shot. I think the rule is irrational until somebody can explain the error of my thoughts.

Now, the new "public acceptance" question. Do you really think the anti-hunters really care what weapon is used to take a turkey? They don't want us hunting at all. Period!!!!!!
I don't think they could even explain the difference between a rifle and an 8 ga. We are not "acceptable" to them because we use a 12 ga. They think we're terrible just for hunting.

"Acceptance" depends on where you live. I'm down south. Hunters are generally accepted here. In fact, I don't know of a true anti-hunter around here. Some choose not to hunt but they're not against it. Heck, around here you don't even need a hunting license to hunt hogs (except on public land). Thus, I think hunting is not "unaccepted" by the public or there would be a rule requiring a license. Certainly the legislature would like to require a license so it could raise more money but the "public" won't allow it!

Each state should do what it thinks best. The rule isn't valid just because it's 92 years old! In my view, there is no valid reason to disallow use of an 8 ga in light the of the other regulations in place. I'm openminded so I hope someone can give me some rational basis for the rule-even if I think my argument is better. I think if we really thought about what real purpose the rule serves now we'd find that it serves no purpose. Just throwing around phases like "fair chase" and "public acceptance" without really explaining how it is "fair" or "acceptable" doesn't get to the crux of the matter. How would it really set us back 50 years? Anti-hunters still won't like us. Hunters in general would probably be supportive with proper regulation. The rest of the world (the majority) probably wouldn't even care or understand.

Please believe me that I respect everyone's views. It's a interesting subject. I must have too much time on my hands by worrying about it.

I do agree with Bruce. It's not likely this rule can be changed if for no other reason that the gun owning, freedom loving members of this forum can't even agree on the subject.

I realize that folks in New England, for example, my not be as accepting. In the real world I don't think the average person really cares if we hunt or not. They have more important things to worry about. The problem is that the extremists on both sides of the issue get all the press leading everyone to believe there is great disagreement on the subject.

King, I don't think bigger is better. I just think it would be fun to hunt a turkey with a 8 ga and no one can give me a sound reason why it shouln't be allowed. Again, think of the reason they were outlawed in the first place, ie to stop market hunters from killing everything in sight. Is that true today? Of course not. Other regulations that came in effect later takes care of that problem, ie bag limits. If the reason the rule was enacted is no longer a factor, why have the rule? Why should I be punished for the sins of my great-grandfather?

King Brown

08-25-2010, 09:29 AM

Ray, reason prevailing isn't the thing. The thing behind the thing is democratic societies decide how they want to live. As a freelance social and natural resources activist, my work involves making and changing laws. In forestry, myths have become legislation through ignorance, militating against sustainable forest management which publics proclaim that they want. Our countries choose whacky policies by popular consent notwithstanding reality, we change our minds but are left with the misery. Reason or the public interest doesn't enter into it---public interest meaning what we'd choose if we saw clearly, though rationally and acted disinterestedly.

Pete Lester

08-25-2010, 09:52 AM

Perhaps you can make the argument that 8ga and larger shotguns should be allowed for turkey hunting once non-toxic shot is mandated for all hunting. Sadly I think that day is coming.

Bill Murphy

08-25-2010, 09:53 AM

The fact is that you can shoot a turkey with an eight gauge in some states. I don't know which states they are, but they are out there. I'm not sure that the 1918 law covers RSA waterfowl either. Maybe someone could check this out.

charlie cleveland

08-25-2010, 10:01 AM

the 8 ga is a lot of fun to shootand to hunt with...i also wish that the laws could be changed to be able to hunt ducks and geese with them...these old guns weremeant to be able tohunt water fowl with...this is my opinion but i belive that most of your market hunters used 10 and 12 ga guns to hunt with... and when the repeating arms came along it was the 12 ga that was favored to hunt with....there was not more than a little over 400 parker 8 ga built only about 50 or less lc smiths built....there were millions of model 97s winchesters and remingtons and marlins and the list goes on.....the repeater with its fire power greater than the 8 ga as killed far more game than the mighty 8.....it was not the guns faults but it was mans we thought that there would never be a end to the flocks of ducks and geese... man almost brought extinction to most game but man finally seen the light... man has seen that we had to look after the game animals and birds that we all love to hunt...so throgh the efforts of man he has turned hisself around and sees that through our efforts that we will preserve something for our future generations.....in my opion it was nou the large bore gun the punt gun nore the 4 or 8 ga or the repeaters that liked to have took our game and wide life into the history books... it was ourselves that we had to bring under control... all things being said the few that want to hunt with the 8 ga should be allowed to hunt with them.... the 8 ga would be a wonderful fowling piece still if man had understood that it was hisself that had destroyed the great flocks ofducks and geese.....charlie

Ray Masciarella

08-25-2010, 10:24 AM

Amen, Charlie.

Bill, I'm glad to hear some states allow them.

King, I agree with your last post. It is well taken. Democratic societies have silly rules at times. I don't think it was silly when the law was enacted in 1918 for the reasons I've previously stated. Cutting down on punt guns, 8 ga and repeaters magazines helped waterfowl popualtions. But it's silly now. Most state regualtion on the subject is done by bureaucrats, not legislatures. There is nothing democratic about that. There is no state statue here on the subject but rather a regulation promulgated by Fish and Game. I think they should not be used for waterfowl unless they can shoot nontoxic shot. That's rational-and I think rational still counts for something in this counrty. Why give in to the irrational. Look what has happened to us by doing so in the past. Otherwise, it's time for a change if the people want change.

Dean Romig

08-25-2010, 10:24 AM

This is a great discussion and everyone's opinions are valid. I'm enjoying this thread immensely and I don't own a 8 bore and I wouldn't care to hunt with one only for the weight factor.... a fifteen lb. gun is a fifteen lb. gun no matter if you're hunting turkey or geese so it certainly wouldn't be my choice for a fun morning of hunting, But, hey - if you want to hunt with an 8 bore, I agree- the reasons for banning the big gun are no longer valid.

Pete Lester

08-25-2010, 12:49 PM

The thought crossed my mind that currently many of the waterfowl restrictions for firearms have been relaxed for spring snow geese seasons; unplugged guns, use of electronic callers, no bag limits etc. Perhaps a petition could be made to USFWS to lift the gauge restriction as well.

Ray Masciarella

08-25-2010, 01:09 PM

Pete, great idea! Isn't it ironic that the gun was outlawed for killing too much waterfowl and now the feds want us to kill every darn snow goose we see? Times have changed.

Francis Morin

08-25-2010, 01:11 PM

Tomorrow, 26th August, besides being one of my beloved daughter's birthday, is also the 90th. anniversary of the Right to Vote issue- More mis-information about duck hunting, a man's right to have a drink after a hard 8 hrs. at Bethlehem Steel or Russell, Birdsell & Ward, and the general anti-hunting anti-whatever they don't understand movements have come from that, IMO.

I shot a Churchill 8 ga. with 34" barrels once, belongs to a brother PGCA member, and after that a 12 HE Super Fox feels light. If a man wants to use that two shot cannon and pay the price for non-toxic shot loads (a Fed reg that ain't ever gonna change, face it) and hire a small lad with a wheelbarrow to tote it for him, I say- Hell yes. If he wants to use a .410 for Turkeys or Geese, then as Col. Askins said, "better he should take up ping-pong"--

Two years ago this coming Winter- in our 30 day late Goose season, where we are allowed 5/day- a friend and I took our Mossenburghers- 835 Ulti-Mag pumps that take 3 and 3 & 1/2" shot, bought a box each of Federal BB steel- one box 3" the other 3 & 1/2" and flipped a coin, I lucked out and drew the 3" loads- we only took paired up shots at incoming birds at tree-top heights- we killed 7 birds, five stone cold dead in the air, two requiring a finishing shot or two- no difference we could see or advantage in using the 3 & 1/2" (ten ga. equiv) loads- dead is dead.

Sportsmanship afield and clean killing shots are not 100% dependent on gauge, it is the skill and experience level of the man behind the gun- I have no quarrel with the dove, quail and skeetists who love the .410, but like my mentor the late T. Nash Buckingham, believe it has no place in the realm of waterfowling.

I also agree with the analysis of the growing bunch of "antis"- they view ALL guns as being evil, and wouldn't know an 8 gauge if it bit them on the ying-yang!:bigbye:

Dean Romig

08-25-2010, 01:20 PM

What about the 165,000 Canada Geese the state of New York plans to "euthanize"? Wouldn't "Death by 8-Gauge" be far more merciful and dignified for such a worthy target and table fare?

Ray Masciarella

08-25-2010, 02:25 PM

Gentlemen, we just might be starting a movement here. I like Dean's idea! And we could give whatever we can't eat to those who are needy. Win-win for all.

Paul Harm

08-25-2010, 06:48 PM

I think [ and could be wrong ] it's Federal law about migratory game birds. As far as hunting anything else with a shotgun in Michigan there is no law about gauge size. Probably the same for any other state - their own rules apply. Paul

charlie cleveland

08-25-2010, 09:35 PM

the 8 gauge is legal to hunt with in mississippi... except migortory birds....its a great turkey gun also does well on deer with buckshot.... also a good long range gun on those peskey crows.....charlie

Milton Starr

08-25-2010, 09:43 PM

Now i havnt read all the pages of this thread but this what i think

The 8 ga was outlawed because wtih LEAD shot and a open choke like a modified and large 3 oz loads killed many many ducks so they made them laws of 1918 around lead shot basically .butr since lead has been outlawed the 8 ga shoul be reinstated it's only fair .Because a 8 ga with steel shot will not o what them old lead shot loads from 70 years back wold do .And in most states you can unt turkey or other game with a 8ga, im from Ga and we dont have a maximum gauge we have a minimal gauge 20 ga for big game deer,turkey,bear etc .

Francis Morin

08-25-2010, 10:37 PM

Brother Paul Harm is right as far as Michigan regs are concerned- it is the Federal reg. that outlawed the 8 gauge gun. Apples to eggplants here- but you can legally use the big "Super-8" on any legal non-migratory game bird in proper season here, you can also use a scoped .300 Win. Magnum rifle for squirrels and rabbits or varmints and vermin, even in the "shotgun only" deer hunting area known as Zone Three by our DNR.

I think an element of practicality might enter the picture. There may have been a few 10 ga. repeaters (the Winchester lever action shotguns) back around 1895-1920, but the 8 gauge shotguns were basically either a single or a double barrel gun- so let's say, for the sake of spirited discussion, a Chesapeake Bay market hunter who added to his income during the waterfowling season used an 8- open choked and with "St. Ouis 3's" lead shot-not cheap to shoot, even reloading- he guides a client who has a Win. M1897 pump- 6-7 shots, shells way cheaper than his 8 ga., easier gun to handle--durable, good pointing for that style of shooting-

What was the national waterfowling picture in 1912-13 when the Weeks Mclean bill passed and the 8 gauge was banned? By then the M 1897, the Browning A-5, some with ten shot extensions, were in usage by market hunters, and the Model 12 was right around the corner- From reading Nash Buckingham's write-up, I guess many of the 8 and 10 bores were used by sportsmen, some of whom (possibly like Nash and his friend Eltinge Warner) wanted to see repeaters banned for waterfowling)--

Today with the National situation as I surmise it: Iraq, Afghanistan, ?? about the economy, the BP Gulf disaster, and the list goes on- to correct a possible error made back in 1912 to allow a small % of the duck hunting fraternity free choice in the gauge and type of weapon they might wish to use- sorry Boys, I am all for the 8 gauge for those who own them and want to use them, any more than a fine Hammer Parker 10 bore or any other vintage firearm that recalls the "good old days" to some of us- But I just don't see it happening.

But rest assured- if I should come across a brother waterfowler in some secluded spot using a 8 ga., even with lead loads- his secret will be safe with me- Maybe he'll have the good taste to be using a Parker!!:bigbye:

Milton Starr

08-25-2010, 10:47 PM

Phillip Carr

08-25-2010, 10:58 PM

I would encourage anyone that lives in a state that outlaws hunting with an 8 gauge, and would like to hunt with one to go find out how to change the law.
I did this last year and went before the Arizona Game Commission on October 9 2009. I found everyone at the Game and Fish department to helpful and encouraging. I was able to actually have my W C Scott & Son as well as my 10 gauge DH Parker brought into the Commission meeting by two Game and fish Department employees. I was able to present my case, as to why we should be able to use an 8 gauge for hunting, and why it has made no since to outlaw the use for the legal harvest of game. I was please at the end to hear the decision. That the Game Commission voted unanimously to allow the hunting of Game in AZ with an 8 gauge. Unfortunately the ruling is in limbo awaiting the Governor’s Regulatory Review Council. They need to place their stamp of approval on the change. We currently have a moratorium on all rule making in AZ. Once this moratorium is lifted the rule will be submitted and should be approved. This of course has no change to Federal laws. That said, one step at a time. If all 50 states approved the 8 gauge use, this might have an impact on the ability to change the Federal law.
I would be happy to send anyone the written argument I used before the commission if you let me know. It is several pages and I do not want to post it here unless I received prior approval.

Milton Starr

08-25-2010, 11:07 PM

what is also important is for all of us and more people is to email someone like remington,mossberg,browing or ...benelli-stoeger nad ask for them to make either a 10 or 8 ga. i think if you could push the 10 ga on them then after a while we would see some 8 ga/ I shoot a 10ga because 12 ga shells feel wierd in the palm of my hand . i think the govement would say why make it legal when no company even produces a 8g a and as of now there are only 4 models of 10 ga in procution compared to hundreds of models of 12 ga

Jim Williams

08-26-2010, 01:09 AM

could get rocky mountain to headstamp 8 ga hulls with 10 ga . since most people havnt seen a 10 ga even modern they (game warden) we say okay your free :bigbye:. it's no worse than people using a 12 ga and taking 3-5 shots to kill a bird

I've been watching to see if someone would post this idea. Let's just say that I think it HAS been done before, but I'm not calling anyone out! A Parker doesn't say "8 gauge" anywhere on it, either.

Jim

Ray Masciarella

08-26-2010, 08:19 AM

I surprised to here that 8 ga can be used in some states. That's great. I do a lot out of state turkey hunting and every place I have beed has a max of 10 ga and min of 20 ga.

I'm inertested in knowing more about how repeaters with 10 shots made such a difference. When I use my Benelli, the ducks are usually out of range by the thrid shot. I can't imagaine getting off 10 shots!!

Based on what I've read the problem with 8 ga and up was this: Market hunters would use them with shooting sticks as they were heavy. They would wait for waterfowl to land and flock up on the water. When there was a good bunch in front of him, he'd blast them with both barrels killing many with two shots. That would seem to be an efftective killing method cause you could get two shots off pretty quick. Would seem more effective then a repeater which allowed three shots.

I don't know anything about the choke sizes. What chokes did 8 ga's tend to have?

Jim Williams

08-26-2010, 08:56 AM

I'm inertested in knowing more about how repeaters with 10 shots made such a difference. When I use my Benelli, the ducks are usually out of range by the thrid shot. I can't imagaine getting off 10 shots!!

It might have something to do with a more "target-rich environment" that existed in those days as compared to now. I know an old gentleman who was a skeet champion in his day. I never hunted with him, but back in the days "when quail were plentiful," I have several friends who attest that he could get off seven shots on a covey rise from his much-favored Model 12, and rarely miss. It would be interesting to have seen once, but more than that would start to seem unpleasant to watch.

Jim

Bill Murphy

08-26-2010, 09:40 AM

Jim, yes, it has been done. In fact, as we speak, there is a company in Pakistan I think it is, that is making a run of eight gauge brass empties with ten gauge headstamps. They are not being made for me, however. If I could find a guide who could cause those Delaware snows to covey up in range, I would spend some days with my A-5 with nine shot Parsons magazine. I think that would be more fun than the eight gauge.

Milton Starr

08-26-2010, 06:13 PM

From what i seen alot of 8 gauges had or have modified chokes which is odd since most guns back then had full choke .
i bet you could use a hevi shot turkey load out of a 10 ga with improved cylinder choke with a great spread .

Jack Cronkhite

08-26-2010, 06:41 PM

Been on the road for a couple weeks and enjoying reading the many posts missed during that time. The Federal side of this question is the Migratory Birds Convention of 1916 which was signed by the United States and Britain (on behalf of Canada, when we were barely past being a colony).

From my understanding, a state could legalize the use of an 8 gauge for hunting species OTHER THAN MIGRATORY BIRDS. Both the US and Canada created legislation taking into account the Convention. In Canada, it is known as the Migratory Birds Convention Act. I think it is the same name in the US but others can verify that. Here is the applicable citation from the Act in Canada:

Migratory Birds Regulations
Regulations Respecting the Protection of Migratory Birds
C.R.C., c. 1035
MIGRATORY BIRDS CONVENTION ACT, 1994

REGULATIONS RESPECTING THE PROTECTION OF MIGRATORY BIRDS

HUNTING METHODS AND EQUIPMENT

15. (1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) and section 23.1, no person shall hunt a migratory bird

(a) except with a long bow and arrow or with a shotgun not larger than number 10 gauge;

Of course there are many further regulations but this is where 8 gauge and larger bores are disallowed for migratory birds.

While not impossible to change an Act linked to an international convention, it is difficult. You will note that, in Canada, the Act was amended in 1994. This was to recognize aboriginal and other subsistence hunters' needs.

Cheers,
Jack

Milton Starr

08-26-2010, 07:07 PM

gauge is measure by the amount of lead in the bore or barrle right ? If not using lead shot doesnt that make it a different gauge ?on a techincality :rotf:

Ed Blake

08-26-2010, 08:49 PM

The 8-gauge was low-hanging fruit for the Congresspersons seeking to find a reason why waterfowl populations were becoming endangered. Banning them was easy. I would recommend Nash Buckingham's "Are We Shooting 8-Gauge Guns" and a couple recent Sherman Bell contributions to the DGJ. You can't use an 8 but you can use a .410 - go figure. NB's point was with three-shot auotmatics and pumps you had as much firepower as you'd have with an 8 double. What's the diff? I say you 8-gauge shooters get yourselves some of Mr. Murphy's 8/10 headstamped shells and have at it at a private, out-of-the way pond. Use lead too.

Dean Romig

08-26-2010, 08:59 PM

The "gauge" of a shotgun - or "bore" if you prefer - is determined by the number of spherical balls of lead of a particular diameter which will exactly equal 1 pound in weight. It doesn't matter if you're shooting lead, steel or aluminum, the bore size has been predetermined with spheres of pure lead. An eight gauge bore tells us that the bore is of a size that eight spheres of lead of that particular diameter will exactly equal one pound. A twenty gauge, on the other hand, will require twenty spheres of another particular diameter to equal one pound.

Phillip Carr

08-26-2010, 09:52 PM

I have decided to post the letter I wrote to the Arizona Game and fish department that mirror the facts, and point that many of you also are expressing. I hope others will take an opportunity to challenge the 8 gauge laws in your state if they restrict the use of an 8 gauge.

Dear AZ Game and Fish Department,

I am submitting a petition asking to change the ruling that makes the use of a shotgun larger than a 10 gauge illegal for hunting in the state of Arizona. It is not my intention to have the Arizona Game and Fish department make any ruling as it applies to Migratory birds, as I realize this is not something that is within this departments jurisdiction.
I am respectfully requesting that the Arizona Game and fish department allow the use of 8 gauge shotguns in the legal harvesting of Big Game, upland birds, and predators.
I believe our AZ Game and Fish laws, and rulings are, and were written to provide protection to our natural resources and wildlife, and to best serve our citizens.
As with any law, or ruling they must be reviewed from time to time in order to make sure that they still represent the original intended purpose, and best serves our states hunters and fisherman.
If at which time the development of new technologies or as a state we become more educated with the facts. We are obligated to ourselves, and our future young sportsman to make changes that best serves the sportsman, as well as our wildlife.
The rulings to limit the use to 10 gauge shotguns or smaller, is one such law. I believe we should review as this law that restricts the use of 8 gauge shotguns. In turn allowing the sportsman in Arizona to be able to use these fine 8 gauge shotguns which are steeped in the rich history of our hunting fore fathers.
I hope I can share with you some of my passion for wanting to be able to hunt with an 8 gauge shotgun, as well share with you what I believe are the facts surrounding the performance and legitimate reasoning for allowing the use of the 8 gauge shotguns.
For as long as I can remember I have heard the stories of the 8 gauge, the preverbal “ Hand Held Cannon” The stories of the neighbor that pulled the triggers on grandpas old 8 gauge and how it knocked him to the ground. The stories of how in the “Olden Days”, whole flocks of ducks were brought down with a single shot. These stories may sound familiar. I would now like to try to separate out the facts from fiction and present you with what I believe will better describe the performance of the 8 gauge and why we should allow the use of the 8 gauge for harvesting game. I would like to first provide some information that might help explain how a gauge is measured and the difference between gauges.
The caliber of shotguns is measured in terms of gauge (U.S.) or bore (U.K.). The gauge number is determined by the number of solid spheres of a diameter equal to the inside diameter of the barrel that could be made from a pound of lead. So a 10 gauge shotgun nominally should have an inside diameter equal to that of a sphere made from one-tenth of a pound of lead. By far the most common gauges are 12 (0.729 in, 18.5 mm diameter) and 20 (0.614 in, 15.6 mm).
So while a 10 gauge would have 10 spheres to the pound an 8 gauge would have 8. Another way to look at this is the 12 gauge has a bore diameter of 0.729, a 10 gauge has a bore diameter of 0.775 and the 8 gauge has a bore diameter of 0.835. For comparison a Quarter is .065 thick when measured on its side. There is a mere 60 thousands .060 of an inch difference between a 10 and an 8 gauge.
Approximately 100 years ago when market hunting was legal, hunters used the best guns they could get there hands on. In almost all cases this was not done with a single barrel, or double barrel 8 gauge. Why? Because this was not the most effective firearm for the harvesting the largest amount of waterfowl, with the one and only shot that might be had that day, (or night). What was effective, was the use of Punt guns, mounted to the bow of a boat. The market hunter used a 2, 4, or larger gauge weapon loaded with a pound or more of shot. The boat was positioned and then discharged in to a flock of rafting waterfowl, with the hopes of taking dozens of ducks or geese for market.
Not surprising our country experienced dwindling game numbers due in large part to the lack of proper protection and resulting over harvest of wildlife in the late 1800 and early 1900’s. Our countries Sportsman, as well as our state and Federal Fish and wildlife departments enacted laws to provide protection to a country that was in dire need of protecting its wildlife. Thus assuring that our future generations inherited sustainable and renewable populations of wildlife.
History has clearly proven that our forefathers did the right things, to best address the unlimited harvest of game.
It is clear that at the time, some limits, and governance needed to be set in order to best address the over harvesting of Game. Many laws were enacted one of which was the Act of July 3, 1918; The Migratory Bird Treaty Act: Affords protection from commercial exploitation to both migratory waterfowl and other species of birds. This act expanded the duties of the "Federal Game Warden" whose existence began in 1900.
With the enactment of this Act there was a belief that there needed to be a restriction on the firearms that should be allowed in the harvesting of waterfowl. After all, if you suddenly want to change the behaviors of many of the hunters, who had grown accustomed to taking unlimited numbers of waterfowl, limitations needed to be set. During this time more then 100,000 hunters owned 10 and 12 gauge shotguns, yet there were only a limited number of 8 gauges ever produced by the American gun manufactures, such as L C Smith and Parker Bros. In fact there was only about 600 8 gauges ever produced by the American shotgun companies.
With this in mind and wanting to restrict the use of unlimited large bore shotguns shooting vast quantities of shot the 8 gauge was the starting point. Why, because the 8 gauge was not popular and not as widely used as the 10 gauge for example.
There are many that are more knowledgeable than I, that have studied the records and believe that the production, and use of the readably available 12 gauge auto loader, with a capacity of 6 to 8 shells did more to more impact the waterfowl population than the Punt guns or 8 gauges ever did.
Currently as it stands today Arizona as well as the other states along with the Federal Fish and Wildlife allow the harvesting of game and waterfowl with the 10 and 12 gauge shotguns. These guns, although limited to a maximum of 3 shells in the magazine while hunting migratory birds and waterfowl are well made modern and effective weapons in which the performance over shadows the yesteryears performance of the vintage 8. These modern 10 and 12 gauge auto’s not only have the ability to be quickly loaded, but are produced in 3 ½ “ Magnums which carry payloads equal to greater then the vintage 8 gauge,
These guns are loaded with Modern smokeless Nitro powders fired in modern barrels that produce velocities that far exceed that of the 8 gauge by a wide margin. This is not to say these guns are bad, they are effective in there design to harvest game effectively, and are a pleasure to hunt with, and are in a similar performance category as our vintage 8 gauges.
Those of use that own and enjoy shooting our 8 gauges not only enjoy the rich heritage behind these fine guns, but must hand load the ammunition taking great care to protect these guns from abuse. Abuse that would be experienced, if we pushed the limits on these fine guns in which many cases carry fine Damascus barrels.
I am one of those lucky enough to have found a fine W C Scott and Son 8 gauge produced in 1884. This gun hung on the wall of a local gun shop for many years, possible having been shot the last time in 1918. I fell immediately for the fine craftsmanship, and the quality of this shotgun. Clearly this was once a prize possession of one of our hunting forefathers. This gun although shooting very corrosive primers and powder clearly had been taken care of. The owner having taken great pride in assuring the Damascus barrels were cleaned and preserved for a future hunter such as myself.
Conclusion, I believe it is a fact that the modern 10 and 12 gauge shotguns being produced today out perform the vintage 8 gauges.
We now have game laws that protect of wildlife and set game limits. These limits clearly call out the requirement for the proper licenses and stamps. They also clearly define seasons, shooting hours, and the daily and possession limits down to not only the bag limit, but also the maximum number of each species a hunter can take.
Understanding this, our next concern should be with the ethical manner in which we harvest game while using the most effective weapons.
An example of using the most effective weapon is demonstrated in the ruling where as the Arizona Game and fish does not limit the maximum caliber of a center fire rifle a hunter can use on big game in AZ, ( The turkey being the exception), yet it does limit the minimum. This makes sense as we want to use a weapon that will effectively harvest a big game animal while limiting the unnecessary wounding of game. Using this same thought process it only makes sense that we allow the use of the 8 gauge for those hunters that cherish the idea of harvesting for example a spring turkey with their vintage firearm.
I realize the changing of this law may only have a small impact of those of us that wish to hunt with our 8 gauges in Arizona without traveling to those states that allow its use, but it is an important change. It is important I believe because it also sends the signal that we have representatives that believe rules and laws should be reviewed regularly to assure they make sense for the management of our wildlife future.
I want to express my sincere appreciation with the fast response from the Arizona Game and Fish department, when I first enquired about the process of changing current rulings. I had a response on the day I made the inquiry. Thank you for this.
I realize this letter and Petition is just the start of the process. I am sure this will take time before a ruling can be made. I have further attached some copies of information on the 8 gauge as well as the 10 gauge. In the meantime, I am willing to help support my Petition for change by supplying additional information, as might be required and would be willing to meet with the Game and Fish Department. If it would be beneficial, I would be willing to bring in my 8 gauge for inspection, or offer to meet at one of the Shooting ranges when the Game and Fish would be represented. This would allow the inspection and demonstration of my 8 gauge while allowing anyone wanting to experience the opportunity to shoot one of these fine vintage shotguns.

Sincerely,
Phil Carr
8502 E Calle Bolivar
Tucson, Az 85715
520-488-6085
couse3pt@cox.net

Milton Starr

08-26-2010, 10:18 PM

doesnt a 8 ga shoot 2-3 oz loads at 1100 fps ?

Dean Romig

08-26-2010, 10:20 PM

Phil, that is an outstanding testimony and a very "grass roots" effort to begin the process of change in the game laws of Arizona. It also gives us all a fine example of a well-written petition which includes everything the Game and Fish Commission needs to begin their review process.

Milton Starr

08-26-2010, 10:28 PM

Milton Starr

08-26-2010, 10:31 PM

take 5 minutes to email or call csmc and let get them to start up 8 ga models . I would love to see s 8 ga A.H. FOX 35" barrels .their more likly to take it into consideration anyway before someone like remington or benelli

Dean Romig

08-26-2010, 11:01 PM

Hey Milton, did you bother to read and fully understand Phil's letter? He's talking specifically about allowing those few fortunate owners of ninety-plus year old double barrel shotguns to be allowed to use them occasionally in non-migratory hunting situations.

.

Francis Morin

08-26-2010, 11:22 PM

realisticly though without anyone procducing at least 1 model of 8 ga i doubt this will work to well .now if i think if we sent some emails to someone like mossberg who make some doozy of guns right now (muzzlebrake shotgun an 22) ask them to make a 8 ga pump 3 1/4" or someone else just sends lots of emails-- I think you are on the right track, Milt- I have a Mossberg 835 pump- it is my "Black Ops" foul/fowl weather go-to waterfowl shotgun- But even if M'Burg said OK- you still need ammo-- Remington produces both shotguns (and rifles) and ammo.

From a practical side of things, even if the Feds rescinded the ban against the 8 ga. for migratory bird hunting, the weight of such a cannon, even with the modern metallurgy of today, and the cost of shells in non-toxic loads, even lead loads- for such a small potential market- I'm not 100% sure it would be viable.

IMO, waterfowling today, with the non-toxic regs, $1500 Binellis, expensive stamps, decoys- for a newcomer to get started and fully into the program, could be some major dollars- not like in my boyhood in the late 1940's- a Model 12 with a plug, a Olt call, tan coat and Jones cap, maybe hip boots and some Herter's decoys, duck stamp and some No. 6 lead loads- you were pretty much all set.

I would appreciate any sportsman today who hunts with a vintage 10 bore double, and in a perfect world, see no reason why such a gent couldn't use a vintage 8 bore as well, if he is lucky enough to have one in shootable condition- But realistically speaking, I don't see this as a priority issue today. I am a Sponsor member of DU, but can't speak for their BOD- if DU were to get behind this movement to reinstate the 8 gauge, perhaps it might happen- we can always hope so!:bigbye:

Milton Starr

08-26-2010, 11:44 PM

Heck if the 8 was reinstated and sxs even cheap one like the stoegers with at least 32" barrels though with a 8 ga i would like 36"'s . i wouldnt buy all the stuff life decoys calls camo or the feeling of being a doucher .

I would load up the mighty 8 with 3 boxes of shells get me a tradtion style boat maybe a wood canoe or somthing about 10' long with good paddles roe my self into postion and wait :bigbye:

Ray Masciarella

08-27-2010, 09:29 AM

Phil, that is very impressive. Congratulations. When I first posted this thread, I thought the wieght of opinion was against the whole idea but I've changed my mind. Your argument is very persausive. We should all copy your letter and send it to our Game Commissions. As I said origianlly, there is no longer a rational basis for the ban. Your letter proves the point. It shows that presenting actual evidence can make a difference.

Forrest Grilley

08-27-2010, 11:15 AM

I think the thing that people are having tunnel vision on, is that if the law was overturned, the only 8 gauge guns that are going to be used are the fine old Parkers...etc. that they happen to own right now. I think overturning a law like this is going to have consequences not many people are thinking about.

Other "primitive" seasons have been started with the best of intentions over the years, and IMHO are nothing like their original intentions. Look at the improvements over the years in archery equipment after the introduction of bow hunting seasons. An even bigger difference can be seen in the so called "primitive" muzzleloader seasons. The technology in the firearms is light-years ahead of when many of muzzleloader seasons were introduced years ago. The differences between a modern inline muzzleloader and a traditional flintlock or percussion rifle is like comparing a Model T to a Porsche 911.

I guess my only point is that if there is a dollar to be made, a shotgun manufacturer will develop a 8 gauge pump, that can throw a 90% pattern of 3 oz. of #6 tungsten shot at 80 yards. That is a big difference to what any of those old Parkers can do right now. I for one think that is going outside of what any of the supporters on this thread are comfortable with in supporting the use of 8 gauges. I for one think this is going beyond the area of fair chase. Just my two cents, not sure if anyone else will agree with me.

Eric Eis

08-27-2010, 03:01 PM

Well said Forest and I totally agree

Ray Masciarella

08-27-2010, 04:18 PM

The firearm technology point is new to this thread. No doubt Forrest is correct about advances in bows, muzzleloaders and shotguns. Folks are even shooting rifles at 600-1000yards tho that is not really new (ask the buffalo). I wonder if there are any studies to look at. I have noticed an yearly increase in the turkey, deer, hog populations around here. It doesn't appear the advances in weapons have hurt them them much. There are more then ever.
However, I still don't think it has anything to do with fair chase if they can be shot with a rifle anyway. A lot fairer to shoot at a deer with an 8 ga then my Weatherby .300 mag. I think sportsmen can decide for themselves what challenges they want. It's why I stopped long ago hunting deer with a .300 mag-didn't find much to it.

John Mazza

08-27-2010, 05:15 PM

Very true, Ray !

I will never look down on someone who hunts deer with a scoped rifle (hell, my pre-64 M. 70 was my best friend for many seasons !), but now, I personally enjoy hunting with vintage guns. (My goal this year is to take a deer with my (ca. 1830) model 1816 Springfield musket (69 cal smoothbore, converted to percussion during the 1850's). The gun's a beast ! Only two things need to be mastered to shoot her well: consistent "sight picture" (like an old Parker, she only has a front sight - no rear sight) and overcoming the HORRIBLY HEAVY trigger pull (apparently, flintlocks worked best with STOUT main springs).

Any deer within 50 yards will be mine !

Ray Masciarella

08-27-2010, 06:17 PM

John, now that sounds like the way to go. I would't want to be a deer on the wrong side of a .69 cal. That has to pack more punch then the .300 mag-at least at 50 yards. Good luck!!!

Milton Starr

08-27-2010, 07:49 PM

I wouldnt care if they made more mnodern 8 ga if that what it takes to start making them again so be it i say . i would love a benelli semi auto 8 ga .then a tradition sxs .they are wanting to ban lead nation wide already . so people who dont want to use high density ammo like 5-10$ per shell will need a good patterning steel shot shell that hills hard . Like a 10 ga 3.5 with 1 5/8 bbb or t shot for turkey,coyote , other game .i know 8 ga ammo is probably about 15-20$ per shell but im speaking as if they made a modern 8 ga i doubt it would be much more than 10 ga ammo.you can fit many steel large pellets in modern shotguns shells like bbb,T, and F shot to get a good pattern like it would if you loaded it in a 8 ga less cripples i would think .

Ray Masciarella

10-07-2010, 08:52 AM

I am pleased to advise that The Florida Admin Code only prohibits the use of shotguns larger then 10 ga for taking migratory birds. A little hard to figure out cause the Reg Handbook doesn't clearly address the issue. You have to dig into the code itself to find a clear answer.
Anyway, now I need to find a 8 ga to turkey hunt with. Of course, now that I'm looking for one they are nowhere to be found. Pugilisi had some on his site but they disappeared over night! Julia had two but I didn't want to take the chance they weren't shootable. Anyway, I'll find one sooner or later.
Question: Is there anything I should look for out of the ordinary? ie is the min barrel thickness different? I have to find one I can shoot. Any tips would be helpful. Thanks, Ray

Jack Cronkhite

10-07-2010, 09:20 AM

Ray: Session 3 Lots 976 and 977 at little John's coming up. The underlifter is pretty and the hammerless looks great. Both in 8 gauge. Wonderful looking guns. Opening bidl already set at 3+K$$ Where it goes, who knows

Direct link (http://www.icollector.com/Major-Collector-s-Firearms-Auction_as18465?ps=100) to the page.

They also have .410 16 and 12's

Enjoy.

Jack

Destry L. Hoffard

10-07-2010, 12:19 PM

Ray Masciarella

10-07-2010, 01:09 PM

Jack: Thanks. I did see them the other day. Barrels cut on hammer gun. Too bad cause it looks like a nice gun. Not many photos of the other. Says pitted. 2 Frame? Doesn't sound right. Hard to buy at auction cause you can't really tell what your getting. I'll have to keep looking.

Destry: Amen!

Francis Morin

10-07-2010, 02:21 PM

Well said indeed Sir Hunter of the Marketplace. Have missed your postings, I have 20 years on you or more, and am also a die-hard waterfowler. I love to drop big birds with a 3" 12 bore (M12 or LC Smith with proper loads) but consider my eyeballed 40 yards to be "Max"--

I think those of us who shoot the big ten bore doubles are perhaps a bit of a "cult"- the eight bore (and I have handled your Churchill 8- what a cannon) even more so.

But I also sense the great spirit of American Independence here- perhaps in like token to one reason why I have a valid CCW for our State- when in past years each of the 83 Counties had their own arbitrary rules and regs- Because, as a Honorably Discharged vet with zero criminal record- shall issue, I seldom carry the S&W snubbie, but when I want to, within the limits of the law, I can- I see no harm or fault in allowing the 8 bore, as it was once legal- you could count on the fingers of both of your hands the number of men dedicated and die-hard enough to want to do so for waterfowl- most likely they would have to hand load non-toxic- expensive, but if it is their wish to expend the funds- I say- have at it Gents.

Good shooting to you and your friends this season- I'll be out early Sat and Sun morning- awaiting a Bluebird (not Bluebills) opener here--:bigbye:

Forrest Grilley

10-07-2010, 02:39 PM

I've pretty well sworn off posting on the forum but will chime in on this one.

To Forrest:

The USA isn't the whole world despite what people seem to believe. The gunners in the UK are perfectly within their rights to use shotguns larger than 10 gauge for waterfowling, puntgunning is even still legal there. The waterfowl populations on that side of the water have seemed to survive just fine even with these guns firing a them for the past 200 years.

Destry

So what's your point...we should legalize punt guns in the U.S. as well? Comparing the game populations, hunting culture, gun usage, between the US and the UK is like comparing apples and oranges. Gun ownership, and hunting in general, is much more exclusive in the UK, and their laws have evolved around their own unique situation.

As far as why the 10 gauge hasn't been extremely popular in the U.S since WWII has nothing to do with how effective/ineffective it was as a sporting arm. The 10 gauge (or larger gauges) have in the past been looked at as strictly waterfowl guns. Waterfowl populations took serious downturns during the decades following WWII. To understand why this is important to the fall in popularity of large bore shotguns, you have to understand the average American hunter during that time period. Hunting is a rural activity, and for most of America's history, hunting was done mostly by the rural population. Most people without money to burn could only afford to buy one gun to fill their needs. Which in most cases was a 12 gauge (hence the premium we Parker collectors pay for guns larger or smaller than 12 gauge). The 10 gauge was always a more effective waterfowl gun than a 12, but most people could only afford one gun, especially when waterfowl hunting started to decline. Anyone who has patterned a similar load through a 12 and 10, knows that the 10 will generally throw a better pattern.

Yes, the 3 1/2" 12 gauge almost put an end to new development of the 10 gauge (although Remington is now offering a new 10). But it has nothing to do with how inherently unpopular the 10 gauge is. The biggest obstacle to new development on the 10 gauge is the SAAMI regulation limiting ammunition to 11,000 PSI. When the 3 1/2" 12 gauge was introduced, this limit was raised to 14,000 PSI for the 12 gauge. This was requested mostly by shotgun manufactures who wanted to sell their new Magnum shotguns!

A modern 8 gauge represents something essentially new to the hunting world. Turkey hunting has seen a huge increase over the past couple decades. And yes, using a modern 8 gauge that can throw a 90% pattern at 80 yards of #6 tungsten shot, would be a highly effective turkey load, and is not something many people would consider fair chase in a shotgun only season.

My whole point is that if there is a dollar to be made, a shotgun manufacturer will develop a new 8 gauge to satisfy those with "Magnumitis", if the bans are lifted, especially if the SAAMI limitations are raised in proportion to the gauge. My fear is it would lead to controversial hunting situations that we can not predict right now, and harm the sport in general. I just don't understand why this is even being brought up as an issue, but I guess I've never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Destry L. Hoffard

10-07-2010, 03:33 PM

Sure why not make it legal here in the US again. It would be no threat to waterfowl populations if that's your big concern. Nobody would do it, just like hardly anybody does it in the places it's still legal such as the UK. It's very very dangerous, out on big open water in a tiny boat with a giant iron pipe of a gun weighing you down. You'd have to use non-toxic shot, a pound or more of tungsten matrix would be pretty pricey don't you think? What few punt gunners that are active in the UK maybe average a shot once every three to five trips and they only make maybe that many trips in a season. It's as tough a shooting sport as exists on this planet. What few guys still hunt that way do it out of a sense of tradition.

As far as the shooting sports being much different in the UK than here and it being "much more exclusive" you're absolutely wrong. They have somewhat more stringent gun laws than we do but it doesn't cost anything to own a gun other than the small fee you pay for your permit. Anybody can hunt and own firearms, you don't have to be the Lord of the Manor. Last time I checked, my close shooting friends over there were a greenskeeper (lawn care service), a diesel mechanic, and a security guard. They're all waterfowlers, all shoot their share of driven game, all own several guns, and all are just regular guys like you and me. There are rich people that hunt and places that are expensive to go but there are plenty of shooters and shooting opportunity for working class people too.

The Ithaca Mag 10 was made up into the early 80's, we're not talking about 50's era rural American here. It was never popular or in widespread use. I just don't understand why you think an 8 gauge pumpgun would be? Guys want cheap ammo and cheap guns, it's just that simple. These three ounce 80% pattern shells you're talking about would be $10 each or more. How many guys are going to drop that kind of money just to try and pass shoot a goose at 80 yards?

Might be something for the specialized turkey hunter who only shoots a few rounds a year but for waterfowling they just wouldn't be practical. As far as fair chase on those birds, lots of states in the west allow you to turkey hunt with a rifle. You can kill one with a .243 a whole hell of a lot further than you could with any kind of shotgun even a 4 gauge with these super shells you've got worked up in your mind.

This is all just conjecture, the ban will never be lifted. If it was ever proposed and the liberal media got ahold of it I shudder to imagine what kind of lies they'd make up if we're getting these kind of responses from actual gun owners and sportsmen.

Forrest Grilley

10-07-2010, 04:35 PM

[QUOTE=Destry L. Hoffard;25335]

Guys want cheap ammo and cheap guns, it's just that simple.

QUOTE]

Then what the he@# are we all doing here on a website that is about collecting antique Parker shotguns?

And if you consider my responses lies, like those that you imagine that would be told by the "liberal" media, I guess I take that as a compliment coming from a "sportsman" such as yourself who opened up his post suggesting lifting the ban on puntguns.

And as far as using rifles for turkeys, in some areas...just because something is legal, doesn't automatically make it right, or ethical. Right now baiting is legal for deer where I hunt, will I ever do it, no. Each of us needs to make their own decisions on what they deem is right and wrong, even if the law permits us to do so.

Now we've probably strayed too far off topic, but I think this is a healthy discussion. It brings up larger issues surrounding our sport, and many of us have voiced our opinions. It's clear we are not going to change each other mind on this topic.

Oh and by the way. Here is a link to those make believe shot shells I made up in my head. http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Ammunition/Shotgun-Ammunition%7C/pc/104792580/c/104691780/sc/104567580/HEVI-Shot174-HEVI-13-Turkey-Loads-Per-5/740248.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshoot ing-ammunition-shotgun-ammunition%2Fhevi-shot%2F_%2FN-1100191%2B4294966929%2FNe-4294966929%3FWTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNU

charlie cleveland

10-07-2010, 04:40 PM

the 8 gauge should be legalized in my opinion...it is as said a very good water fowl gun....our fore fathers had to pick out somethingto make illegal so they done away with thebig guns....it was notthe big guns that was reducing our water fowl into skinking numbers but it wasus hunters that had no limit set for us......we as humans at that time did not think we were wiping out the things we loved to hunt but we were the cause not the big guns...all we needed as hunters was a little guidance a a bag limit......charlie

Destry L. Hoffard

10-07-2010, 05:08 PM

We're all on here because we like shooting game or clays with vintage shotguns. We're such a small part of the overall scene it's like we barely exist. About 99.9 percent of the waterfowlers I know, and I know a bunch, want their plastic automatics and the cheap steel shotshells. They're interested in hunting and killing game, with them it's the sport and not the "how" unlike with the guys who post here. When you go to Cabela's all the guys are looking at the Winchester Super X-2 or whatever is the plastic automatic of the moment. They aren't in the Gun Library looking at Parkers when they think of a new duck gun. Just the feeding of these vintage doubles as waterfowling guns is cost prohibitive, that's why it's getting hard to even find the Kent TM in the stores. Nobody is buying it anymore because it's gotten so high.

For years everybody in the US thought that if you even held a nitro powder shell next to a damascus gun it would blow up and kill everybody within a five mile radius. The British boys always got a big laugh out of us over that one. Finally folks in the US have come around due to the research done by Bell and Armbrust. Guys want to rail against the folks in the UK because one out of about 500 fowlers has some kind of old large bore shotgun that they take hunting a few times a year or that they still can shoot ducks over bait and sell them. It's all different strokes for different folks really, I'm glad I've been over there and done those things. I'm able to attempt to dispel some of the myths that have been created over the years.

You're obviously getting all wound up because I'm disagreeing with you on some of these points you're trying to make. I'm just trying to state some valid points myself not trying to wind you up. I'll leave it alone and go back to my non-posting status. Sorry I got involved really, it's just not worth the effort most of the time.

Forrest Grilley

10-07-2010, 05:34 PM

You're obviously getting all wound up because I'm disagreeing with you on some of these points you're trying to make. I'm just trying to state some valid points myself not trying to wind you up. I'll leave it alone and go back to my non-posting status. Sorry I got involved really, it's just not worth the effort most of the time.

Believe me, you're not getting me wound up because you disagree with me, lumping me in with the liberal media might have a little more to do with it. :cuss:

Best of luck to you, and I hope you get a chance to do some waterfowling this season with whatever gun you decide to use, which preferably might be a fine old Parker. I know I'll be out there with mine :)

Destry L. Hoffard

10-07-2010, 05:37 PM

My real point here is this whole man bites dog scenario that's being cooked up with these responses. "Oh my God Billy! If they make 8 gauges legal then everybody will use an 8 gauge and they'll kill every duck and goose that exists so there won't be any left for me to shoot!" There's a limit, it's 6 ducks where I hunt at, what difference does it really make how they're taken as long as the shooter enjoyed himself and obeyed the law?

That's the core of the matter, as long as nobody is harmed then what real difference does it make? I'm not that big a fan of bow hunting, I think a lot of deer get injured and suffer a lingering death by guys who don't practice or know how to hunt. But I'm not going to get up on my high horse and suggest that bow hunting is wrong. I'm all for it! It's hunting and I support hunting in all it's various forms throughout the world. When you start outlawing particular things it's the long (and sometime short) road to outlawing it all. When you get one hunter telling another how he should do it and that how he's doing it is morally wrong, well..... that's exactly what the anti-hunters and the liberal media love and want to see more of. That's what will kill the sport that we all love so much, not the vague chance that 8 gauge shotguns might ever come back into use.

Here's the classic example. I grew up hunting doves in Illinois, I moved to Michigan and there's no season on them here. Few years back the state did it's best to institute a season on them. The liberal media went to work and I actually know hunters and gun owners that voted against it. And you know what, it worked just like they wanted it to, we don't have a dove season here in Michigan and we never will because of this sort of disagreement in the ranks.

So anyway, rant over I promise. This is pointless and it's wasting time I could be spending stringing up a dozen new bluebill decoys I just got.

DLH

P.S. I only shoot a Parker at ducks and geese for the most part. I've been out with them already. My season runs till mid-January then another two weeks on geese late Jan into early Feb. I get out quite a bit have no fear.

Ray Masciarella

10-07-2010, 05:48 PM

Geez, look what I started again, although I think it's worth the discussion.

Forrest, I have no bone to pick with you and respect your sense of sportsmanship, but saying even if something is legal it's still unethical is just plain wrong. Unethical to who? Who is setting these rules of ethics? You say "each of us must make our own decisions" but question our ethics even if we engage in a legal activity? If it's legal it's ethical. I Like you said, we are free to make our own choices. If you're more sporting then others, I respect you for it. There are some things I choose not to do that are legal. I live in Florida and hunting turkeys with a rifle is legal. I choose a shotgun cause I like calling them in. I could hunt them in the fall but don't do that either. I don't kill Jakes. But I don't consider those who kill Jakes, use rifles or hunt in the fall unethical.

Charlie, Francis and Destry have it right. Last time I checked, we still lived in America-the land of freedom. I have no interest in buying a "modern 8 ga" (whatever that is). I'd like to get an old 8 ga. Figure out how to get some ammo. Lug it to the turkey woods and see if I could hit one with it. That's much more challenging then shooting it with a rilfe, which, again, is perfectly legal.

Punt guns: They were used by market hunters who sold their ducks. That was their business. No one is in that business today. It's illegal to sell migratory game-at least here in Florida- not sure what the feds say about it. Like Destry said, no one would use them even if they were legal as they have no real use today.

It's time to rethink all this stuff. If you don't want to use a 8 or 10 ga or rifle, that's up to you, but disparaging others as unethical for engaging in legal activity is not a way to have a meaningful discussion.

Bill Murphy

10-07-2010, 06:05 PM

I haven't heard anyone mention that there was a problem with procuring ammo for an eight gauge until the last few posts. When my late uncle sent me my grandfather's E Grade Lefever pigeon gun when I was about 10 or 11 years old, my dad told me that the gun had "soft" barrels. I had no idea what "soft" barrels were, so I started reading. I read that the barrels were "Damascus" and should only be shot with black powder. My dad's friend in New York, Bill Lea, a serious gun collector, sent me a loading set. It was an old time BGI set with adjustable shot-powder measure, wad seater, and crimper. Unfortunately, I didn't know how to obtain wads, so, for a few years I used newspaper for wadding, a nail to extract primers, and a hammer to place new primers. Those shells worked just fine in the small quantities I used them. Eight gauge shells can be loaded in the same crude way if you lack some of the tools to load them. Wads are available from Circle Fly and all other loading problems can be solved with hand tools. Believe me, I have been loading eight gauge shells since 1969 and I have never loaded one with a loading tool that had a handle.

Ray Masciarella

10-07-2010, 06:59 PM

Forrest Grilley

10-07-2010, 07:20 PM

Forrest vs. Destry:

Forrest, you have the right to an opinion, but your "fair chase" argument is faulty if you think it's okay to kill a turkey with a rifle, and not an 8 ga. Now, if you want to outlaw rifles, that's a different story. This is much to do about nothing and really has nothing to do with "fair chase". Rifle, shotgun, bow-what's the difference so long as you're not shooting them in a cage.

And don't worry about gun makers producing 8 ga's. They could do it now cause my research shows that using 8 ga's are legal in many states for nonmigratory game. Why aren't they making them? Cause there is no demand!

Heck, if you think about it, we can even legally use punts guns for nonmigratory game. Fla regs say game can be taken with shotguns. Only limits are that deer/turkey can't be taken with anything smaller then 20 ga and migratory game can't be taken with anything larger then 10 ga. But don't tell Destry cause I don't want him to come down here with his punt gun and shoot my turkeys! (haha)

Men of goodwill can disagree and have different opinions. It doesn't make them unethical. You shouldn't attack a man's ethics because he has a different view.

You also keep saying "many people" would be "uncomfortable" and wouldn't consider using 8 ga "fair chase". Who are these folks? Who are you speaking for? It seems most folks here don't share your view. To these folks I ask: can any of you come up with a rational, factual basis for permitting turkeys to be taken with a rifle and not an 8 ga without questioning someone's ethics or merely expressing an opinion. I would honestly like to know if I'm overlooking something here.

If would read my earlier post I addressed the rifle/turkey issue. And actually the people who agree with me on the issue of the 8 ga. are the ones who have not overturned the law in the past 100 years. If the Federal ban on 8 gauge guns for waterfowl was lifted, new SAAMI regulations would be put in place making it possible for shotgun manufacturers to produce one. Like Destry alluded to, all it would take is an idiot news reporter holding an 8 gauge shell next to a 20 gauge shell, and it would spark a flurry of bad PR for hunters and hunting. The fact that an 8 gauge gun is not being produced right now has nothing to do with demand. Until SAAMI provides regulations on the 8 gauge the manufacturers can not produce one.

I hunt deer in Wisconsin where baiting deer is legal. A very large percentage of hunters (I believe it is over 50% in recent polls) feel that shooting a deer over bait is unethical, and I have no problem what so ever calling someone that shoots a deer over bait an unethical hunter. At this point it is still legal to bait, but very close to or more than half of all deer hunters in Wisconsin are against it. Unfortunately the pro baiting side has powerful (rich) supporters, such as retailers. And it is difficult to get a state represenative to introduce an anti-baiting bill. Baiting deer in Wisconsin is a black eye on the sport and done much to damage the image of hunting in the public's eye. And it's all nice and legal.

Whether we like it or not, hunting is a dying sport. The only way it will last to be passed down to our children, is to regulate ourselves and improve it's image to the public at every opportunity that we can. That includes standing up against something that we feel is wrong whether it is legal or not, especially if there is a high probability it will harm the perception of hunters and hunting in the public's eye.

I'm done

Ray Masciarella

10-07-2010, 07:39 PM

Forrest Grilley

10-07-2010, 08:27 PM

Forrest, and if you read my earlier post it had nothing do to with hunting migratory game. All I really wanted was some tips on what to look for when buying a 8 ga to turkey hunt legally. That turned into a discussion about ducks wherein you suggested that I was unethical. If you best argument is that the rule is sound because it's nearly 100 years old, then you don't understand that the reasons for it's enactment don't apply anymore. Again, I respect your opinion but you can't cite a rational basis for prohibiting turkey hunting with an 8 ga. Being unable to do so you choose to attack the character of others just cause they don't listen to you. I'm done with you too.

Now, can anyone give me a tip on what to look for in buying an 8 ga besides the usual?

I honestly don't think you have read any of my posts. Actually you were the one who brought up the topic of migratory bird hunting and the question of ethics in your very first post, and I have never once attacked the character of you or of anyone on this board, please point out where I did so and I will apologize. If you want to use your antique Parker with traditional loads for turkey go nuts, enjoy it.

The only problem I have with the entire 8 gauge issue is the possibility of a newly manufactured gun that is capable of throwing a huge payload of the new super shots at a range we have not seen before. Yes, having a shotgun that can kill a turkey at rifle ranges is a rational basis for prohibiting turkey hunting with an 8 gauge. And no, my own personal opinion is that rifles should not be used for turkeys. Did that clear it up for you?

It seems like you had your own idea of were this thread should go from the beginning and are getting defensive to the point of saying I am name calling and attacking your character because I disagree. Which I honestly don't think we disagree that much, it sounds like we are pretty much on the same page, I could care less if you use your Parker for turkeys, and it sounds like you have no intention of calling for overturning the Federal ban.

Anyway...hope you find the gun you are looking for. I know Puglisi's usually has some 8 gauges for sale, but it's been awhile since I've looked at his site. I wish I would have seen the Julia auction a bit earlier, it sounds like some really nice guns went for a great price. If you find a nice one, post some good pictures. Good luck

Kurt Densmore

10-07-2010, 10:50 PM

The larger than 10 gauge law is about as useful as a duck plug for a SxS !!!

It was the repeaters, loss of habitat and punt guns (in that order) that reduced the duck number.

Duckin' in MI,
Kurt

Ray Masciarella

10-08-2010, 10:39 AM

Forrest: You're right. You didn't say "Ray, you're unethical". You did say that hunting turkey with a rifle is unethical even thought it's legal. I guess I took that to mean hunting them with a 8 ga (legally) would also be unethical since you object to the use of 8 ga's under any circumstances. You also state that hunting deer over bait is unethical, which is also legal in some places. You have the right to call anyone you wish "unethical" but I don't see how we can have an honest discussion when doing so. I just don't think I'm unethical if following the rules. So if it was I who was being too sensitive, I owe you the apology.
As I said, people of goodwill can disagree over the policy. My post yesterday had nothing to do with the duck ban. I was merely looking for tips in buying a 8 ga. I do support lifting the ban cause it's out lived its purpose. The problem is that the left-wing fascist regulators have some sportsmen afraid to rationally talk about it in fear of being called unehtical. That's the way it works. If there is no rational argument for keeping the reg, just demonize those who support lifting the ban. Call them "unethical", or maybe even "baby duck killers". Whatever it takes so that us sportsmen will behave and follow their instructions. When we start disparaging each other, then they have us right where they want us.
It's an interesting topic. There are those who support the ban but I wish they did cause it actually accomplished something rather then out of fear we might upset the minority tree-hugger bunch. Sportsmen can't accomplish anything if we are silenced by the fear that they will take something else from us if we speak up.
Anyway, no hard feelings, right? My challenge is find to an 8 ga I can afford and figure out where to get some ammo!

Bill Murphy

10-08-2010, 01:31 PM

Forrest, the amount of shot the eight gauge throws is not even related to this discussion. Nitro Cartridge Company sells a 3 ounce ten gauge load that throws more shot at a turkey than any eight gauge I own. My biggest eight, nitro proved at 2 1/2 ounces in a 3 3/4" shell is a good half ounce short of the Nitro Cartidge turkey load. Ray, you could have bought your new eight at Julias.

Dean Romig

10-08-2010, 01:43 PM

What masochist would even consider shooting a 3 oz. ten guage shell in a modern gun? (nobody would shoot them in a vintage gun, I'm sure) I think shooting an 8 ga. Parker would be some fun and at something like 15 lbs. would absorb the vast majority of felt recoil. I say "have at it" to those who wish to use an old 8 ga. for hunting, where legal of course. Somehow I don't think I'd like to lug one through the grouse woods though :eek:

Dean Romig

10-08-2010, 02:27 PM

There are two 8 ga. parkers on Julia's "did not sell - make an offer" listing.

Ray Masciarella

10-08-2010, 02:54 PM

Thanks, Dean. I didn't know they were no sales. I'll have to check them out again. You seem to know a lot about min wall thickness. Are the specs the same for 8 ga's, ie min .035?

Dean Romig

10-08-2010, 03:05 PM

Honestly, I know little about 8 ga. guns and the kind of pressures they produce or the min. wall thickness required to be considered safe.

Jack Cronkhite

10-08-2010, 03:36 PM

This thread has become an interesting discussion that touches on laws ethics and morals, as related to killing game. Is conducting oneself in a legal manner also conducting oneself in a moral and ethical manner? Does it depend on whose standards are in play? A philosophical analysis may be in order. Any philosophers out there??? With deference to true academics, I want to make a stab at this.

I think laws are developed for application to the whole of society. To do so, they can become vague and subject to interpretation. Morals and ethics may not have the same broad social application, rather they may refer more to rules and standards of conduct and practice, often developed by a segment of a society for application to and within that segment, e.g. doctors, lawyers, religions and even hunters. To establish moral and ethical codes within a segment of society, there will be debate. That debate may center on values related to some conduct, touching on the rightness or wrongness of certain actions and the goodness or badness of the motives and methods employed to achieve the ends of such actions.

So, let's stick with hunting.

To start, there are segments of society that abhor the thought of killing any animal for human consumption. Those who hold true to those ethical standards will not eat any form of animal derived product. Their sense of what is right and good varies from the vast majority of the human population who do eat animal flesh and other animal derived products. Who is right or wrong or good or bad??

For the rest of the population that does consume animal products, there is a broad based desire that the animals to be consumed are decently treated up to the point of being killed, most often in a slaughter house type of facility.

However, hunters perform the full range of actions required in order to take the animal from natural habitat to dining table. The chase, the kill, the field dressing, the home preparation, the cooking and eating.

So the end, a meat based meal, is the same for the person who relies on others to turn an animal into the product to be consumed, as it is for the hunter.

So with the same end, the motives and methods employed to get there become the subject of debate.

For the general population the motive may be as simple as a meal.

For the hunter, the motive may include the meal, as well as the enjoyment of the time in nature, and the camaraderie of like-minded persons. It may include the enjoyment of interacting with another species to assist in the hunt – our four legged friends.

The next issue is the methods employed, which directly touches on the 8 gauge discussion.

Rightness, wrongness, goodness and badness become the matters of debate that determine the morals and ethics of hunting.

We have to start with the assumption that hunting is good, not bad and that killing an animal for food is right not wrong. We know there are others who disagree; however, at the broad social level, the legality of hunting is not in question. Methods are in question, even amongst hunters and that depends on personally derived sense of what what is right or wrong good or bad.

So let's stick now with the method of killing using an 8 gauge gun. Will it kill, yes. How so? With #7 #6 #5 #4 #2 etc shot. This is the same shot used in any shotgun. Does the 8 gauge deploy more pellets than 10 12 gauge etc? It can but some modern loads for smaller gauges can actually deploy more pellets.

Do more airborne pellets increase the probability of a clean kill? Likely.

So, does the question ultimately become: Is there a maximum number of pellets deployed by a gun, beyond which, it is clearly wrong and bad?? On the opposite side, is there a minimum number of pellets deployed, under which it is clearly wrong and bad?

I rambled on at length here and must end with a personal level moral and ethical decision to make. If I had an 8 gauge gun, I would not hesitate to use it if it were legal to do so (don't want to lose my car, the 8 gauge, the backup gun or my hunting privileges).

The main reason for me to have no qualms would be increasing the probability of a clean kill.

I believe all moral and ethical questions are decided at the individual level. I may decide not to kill a certain species, even though legal to do so. That may be based on taste. If I don't eat it, I don't kill it. If another hunter enjoys eating that species, who am I to have a concern.

Okay, I'll end it on that note.

Cheers,
Jack

Dean Romig

10-08-2010, 04:07 PM

I, for one, will give it some thought and address those questions later on this evening or tomorrow.

Brent Lacy

10-08-2010, 06:32 PM

Intresting thread. As Tom Roster aptly stated in one of his articles, it's not the size of the guage that kills, its the number and size of the pellets. Where is it written that you have to shoot 3oz of shot? I should think that 1 7/8 or even 1 5/8 oz would be tremendously effective beyond 60yds with lead or even some of the non toxics we have to load with - even steel( yuck) would be plausable in the right velocity loading.

Just because an 8 bore was used by some market hunters at a different time in history doesen't mean we can't use it effectively today. Our own prejudices are the only thing that prevents us from using it now- along with the availability of guns chambered for it, ammunition, and restrictive legislation.

Ray, 6 ducks ARE 6 ducks.

Francis Morin

10-08-2010, 08:58 PM

I have read and re-read all the posts here, and there isn't a man who contributed his opinions that I would not share a duck blind or a pheasant swale with for a day- no matter the gauge or make and model of weaponry used. Sportsmanship is a matter of principle and ethics, not arbitrary rules and regs- it is conscience working within us when no one else is watching our actions.

I seem to recall some treatise years ago on how using a smaller gauge shotgun was "more sporting" as it gave the birds we pursue (hopefully with good friends, both two and four legs included) a "chance"-- Huum. I think we all see either to kill cleanly or to miss, and hopefully not to cripple.

If the laws of a certain State allow a 8 bore for turkey, and a sportsman wants to expend the funds and practice to become proficient with such a weapon, that should be his right, any more than the late President Dwight Eisenhower shooting quail with a .410 bore. No hunter or shotgun enthusiast would suggest the reverse- turkeys (or waterfowl) with a .410 and bobwhite quail with a 8 (or 10) gauge-- Common sense in our selection of armament for the clean killing of the certain game we seek prevails-

But there is an underlying thread in such a discussion- I think of the outdoor writer Jim Zumbo and his ill-chosen terms for the M-16 clones some men enjoy using for hunting. If we, as a small niche group, and our brothers with LC Smith, AH Fox, LeFever, Ithaca etc-- interests- do NOT consider ALL legitimate gun owners and fellow shooters/hunters as having a common for- the ANTIS- we are doomed. It won't happen overnight, but I wonder what my now 6 year old Grandson's world for hunting and shooting might be like- 20 years from now-most likely I won't be around by then- who can say.

We need to 'agree to disagree' gentlemen, but in the end, all sit down and raise our glasses (make mine Bushmills or George Dickel please) to the men now gone who gave us such freedoms- Our Founding Fathers, Teddy Roosevelt, Gifford Pinchot, George Grinnell, James Audubon, George Bird Evans, Nash Buckingham, Captain Paul A. Curtis, Colonel Hal Sheldon, Ray P. Holland, Jack O'Connor, the list goes on- they all left us a great legacy, and we need to stand united with fellow gunners to insure that legacy will still stand for generations to come- IMO

Dean Romig

10-08-2010, 09:14 PM

Quite possibly your most thoughtful and meaningful post to date - Thank you Francis.

Jack Cronkhite

10-08-2010, 10:05 PM

Sportsmanship is a matter of principle and ethics, not arbitrary rules and regs- it is conscience working within us when no one else is watching our actions.

Francis: This sums it up in one sentence. Well said.

I don't know your friend George but I believe he has some relatives in Scotland, all still single. Should, by some stroke of good fortune, we meet one day, the two could be re-introduced to each other as long lost cousins. The Scots are a wee bit frugal when it comes to sharing, but catch them off guard and it could be a fine get together.

Cheers
Jack

George Blair

10-08-2010, 10:40 PM

Quite possibly your most thoughtful and meaningful post to date - Thank you Francis.

AMEN !

Ray Masciarella

10-08-2010, 11:37 PM

I'm sure glad I joined this forum. Wish I could take you all out to the dove field with me tomorrow. I could learn more about life and Parkers!!! Thank you all.

Ray Masciarella

10-08-2010, 11:38 PM

Bill: will a 8 ga pattern 90% at 80 yards as Forrest mentions? Do you know what the min barrel thickness should be?

calvin humburg

10-09-2010, 08:34 AM

I think the 8 should be legal. Ethics, well fellows here in lies a problem because ethics is an opinion. And when we start voicing opinions well somebodys going to disagree and then they ain't gonna want to sit in the duck blind together. sad but true. Just like i'll state my opinion right here and most will say hes a idiot (oh i'll agree with that) I think its unethical to gripe about coyote and hawk killing all the game. So when Joe hunter leaves his house stops at the quick shop 4 a snack stops and buyes himself some shells at the hunting store ect. ect. ect. They are the true hunters they live buy the hunt and until i live by the hunt i will share the game with them and sometimes leave game 4 them so they have an easy meal. And yes sometimes when the turtle doves are lined up on the high line i will give them a barrel to see how many will fall, unethical i don't know i eat them. I don't do it often i guess sometimes i just fell a little onrey. ch but we are are all on the same team so we all overlook most things and stay friends right:whistle:

Bill Murphy

10-09-2010, 09:47 AM

Ray, I don't know how a good eight bore would pattern because I don't shoot mine at paper. However, I see no reason why an eight with good chokes and good ammunition wouldn't pattern as well as a good ten. I have a ten that patterns the standard WW load of 1 3/4 ounces of steel so tight that a mallard at 60 yards would be too full of shot to be comfortably eaten. This is not a gun that is really suitable for steel, but I have shot steel in it for several years without damage. I will take it on as a project to throw some eight gauge patterns to try to answer your question. Unfortunately, I don't have a micrometer that will measure eight gauge bores and chokes.

Dean Romig

10-09-2010, 09:54 AM

Everybody's opinion about their own ethics is a valid opinion but I think we need to continue to "police our ranks" and point out the "slob hunter" who selfishly takes more than the bag limit allows, who kills for the sake of killing and wastes the game he kills, who refuses to close gates behind himself, who shoots too close to a dwelling or roadway, who stinks-up or destroys another hunter's blind or tree stand, who vandalizes, who litters....
They are out there and most of us have seen the evidence or even witnessed their boorish behavior. We 'ethical hunters' need to change this kind of conduct wherever we see it and we need to make it known that these people are not necessarily "hunters" but rather are criminals".

The kind of weapon a hunter uses, either by design, bore size, age, or quality... in my mind, so long as said weapon is legal, is not a matter of ethics.

Eric Eis

10-09-2010, 10:08 AM

I think Dean said it all. Now can we move on to another subject.....?