Rolled the dice on a CH..

[Kirk Potter]

Obviously needs a lot of work..

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/parker-shotguns-antique/parker-c-grade-rare-bernard-steel-barrels.cfm?gun_id=100947595

What do you guys think?

#60068

[Ronald Moore]

lots of work, hope barrels are sound

Ron

[Brian Dudley]

Boy, that one is worn out. And the pictures very poor. But at that price, unless the barrels are toast, it is not a horrible buy for a Bernard CH. If the barrels are sound, that one woukd be a good candidate for restoration. Would sure make for some striking before and after photos.

[Bill Murphy]

What's the deal with the extension rib that seems to be standing proud of the action? Otherwise, I would like to see one of us take this one on.

[Kirk Potter]

Can anyone look at #60068 in the book for me? Seller says #60668 but looks like #60068 to me.

I really like the third dog on the floorplate.

[Brian Dudley]

It is 60068. At least that is what is on the trigger guard.

[Rick Losey]

60068

c grade 30" berarnd barrels 12ga

[Mills Morrison]

Did you get it Kirk? If so, good luck with it

[Kirk Potter]

Did you get it Kirk? If so, good luck with it

Yes, just need to get a check in the mail.. Just ordered a research letter as well.

[Bill Holcombe]

As long as barrels are sound it looks to be in good enough shape to be worth restoring if you have the funds for it.

[Mike Franzen]

Good buy (I hope) Kirk. I saw that on there and thought the gun had a lot of potential.

[Kirk Potter]

Good buy (I hope) Kirk. I saw that on there and thought the gun had a lot of potential.

Thanks, I hope so too.. If the barrels check out it'll definitely be getting a restoration.

[Richard Flanders]

That one can be brought back better than many; it's just a matter of time and money. We're very fortunate that we have a number of good gunsmiths available to us at this time who can work magic on a specimen like this one and make it look pretty much brand new.

[Ken Hill]

Kirk,

Let us know how the gun looks when you get it. Take your time with restoration.

Ken

[Mills Morrison]

To my eye it looks like more heavy use than abuse.

[Richard Flanders]

Roger that Mills. That gun has seen a LOT of field time. If only guns like that could talk and tell their stories.

[Craig Budgeon]

Kirk, It looks like you have made an astute purchase to me. Currently, the best features of your CH are those Bernard steel barrels, the gun still retains its skeleton steel buttplate, and it seems to lack the refinements that amateur gunsmiths often add.

[Kirk Potter]

I only let about 15 minutes pass between the time I found it and when I emailed the seller to buy.. I've always wanted a Bernard barrel gun and have only ever seen one other that cheap. Even though it needs a lot of work, at least I have it.

[Bruce Day]

mistake to this thread

[Kirk Potter]

Browsing through The Parker Story volume II this afternoon and I see that #60068 shows up on page 600 as one of the 45 C.E.P guns ordered by Charles Eddy Parker.

[Dean Romig]

That's some good solid provenance!

I hope you can find additional provenance on 60068





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[Chuck Bishop]

The Order Book shows 60068 as being ordered by the E.T. Allen Co. of San Francisco, CA and the order was placed by S.A. Tucker. The order # was 39439. There is no mention of Charles Eddy Parker in the order. There were 68 guns on this order. S/N 60068 plus 5 other guns (2 BH's, 1 DH 8ga., and 1 PH 8ga.) were sent on consignment.

The Stock Book shows this gun with the initials C.E.P. in the spot where the order number should be. S/N 60067 is also a CH with Bernard barrels and it has C.E.P in the order # spot in the Stock Book. This gun, according to the Order Book was ordered by the Gordon Hardware Co. of Seattle, WA. The order also shows it as a consignment gun along with 2 other CH's with Bernard barrels. This order was placed by mail and the order # was 40213.

I don't believe these guns were C.E.P.'s personal guns but he probably approved sending the guns on consignment. Did they have extra nice engraving and stock wood like the guns for exhibitions, who knows!

[Kirk Potter]

Whether true or not, The Parker Story says that the 45 guns marked C.E.P and ordered by Charles Eddy Parker may have been used as factory or salesman's samples.. Some remained in stock for years and years.

Thanks for the info!

[Kirk Potter]

Pics.

[Mills Morrison]

Looks good. How are the barrels?

[Kirk Potter]

More.

[Kirk Potter]

1....

[Kirk Potter]

2....

[Kirk Potter]

3....

[Kirk Potter]

4....

Barrels seem fine externally, no pitting or anything in bores, not sure about muzzle.

[Kirk Potter]

5....

[Kirk Potter]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ry4oOdmTVlrexTzI2

[Mills Morrison]

Looks really good. The dog on the floor plate is excellent

[Ken Hill]

It doesn’t look too bad. Let us know your plan for the gun.

Ken

[Dean Romig]

Somebody attempted to resolder the ribs and did a poor job of it.
Otherwise, looks good.





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[Russ Jackson]

Sure looks a lot better than it did in the sellers ad ! Congrats it looks like a good buy !

[Richard Flanders]

Needs some TLC at the muzzle for sure.

[Bill Holcombe]

Good buy. It may need a little work...or a lot depending on what you want it to be, but I think you did well.

[Kirk Potter]

It doesn’t look too bad. Let us know your plan for the gun.

Ken

If the barrels check out I’ll get it fully restored, maybe not case color but everything else redone.

Thinking of sending the barrels to Bachelder since he’s local, just to get them checked out to see if they are restorable. Seems to me they should be, but I’m no expert.

[Kirk Potter]

So, I got some pretty bad news from Brad today.. Doesn't look like the barrels are safe.. Really, really disappointing. Apparently they've been honed at least once already and the right tube in his opinion is just a bit too thin.

A couple options.

1. Restore barrels cosmetically and fit with Briley tubes.

2. Fit 2 fame 10 gauge Bernard barrels.

3. Fit 2 frame 12 gauge steel barrels.

4. Cut my losses. No more gambling.

Thoughts?

[Bill Holcombe]

I would go with option 1 or 2. 10 gauge parker is fun to shoot.

[Dean Romig]

What is the minimum wall thickness?





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[Kirk Potter]

What is the minimum wall thickness?





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If I remember correctly, .049 left barrel .023 right. Was also a spot that would need to welded to be repaired correctly.

[Dean Romig]

Brad's the expert but I wouldnt say .023" mwt is necessarily a disqualifier. Where along the length of the tube is this measurement found?





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[Brian Dudley]

I wont add anything to the dimensions topic because not much can be said based on the two basic numbers you provided.

If the barrels need to be replaced, a gun like this should be put back to being as right as possible. That means sticking with the same barrel type and gauge. The only way i would consider making a change is if it is to fluid steel barrels. Making major changes to its original configuration would effect the guns lasting value going forward.

Your most cost effective option is keeping the original barrels and going with tube inserts.

If i was not so attached to a certain set of 30” titanic barrels that i have, i would have been offering them to you already.

[Kirk Potter]

I guess I need to decide how much under water on this is tolerable. I knew going into this that it wasn’t a money maker.. Ideally, I’d go with the inserts + locate some titanic steel barrels, that way at least the original barrels would stay with the gun. Just not sure I want to spend that much.

[Bill Murphy]

Kirk, where do you plan to get the 10 gauge #2 frame Bernard barrels you mentioned?

[Kirk Potter]

Brad's the expert but I wouldnt say .023" mwt is necessarily a disqualifier. Where along the length of the tube is this measurement found?





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Not sure, just had a quick phone call with him on my way home from work yesterday. Will talk with him again in a couple of days.

[Craig Larter]

I sure would like to know the barrel measurements and why they are unsafe to shoot. There are a ton of Parkers being shot on a regular basis with a .023 wall. They sound more like choke measurements??

[Kirk Potter]

I sure would like to know the barrel measurements and why they are unsafe to shoot. There are a ton of Parkers being shot on a regular basis with a .023 wall. They sound more like choke measurements??

He said that they’ve been quite a bit overboard, honed once before to remove some pitting. Also, their is some pitting now and a tear? or separation that he said would need to be welded to be fixed. That repair wouldn’t be visible.

[Dean Romig]

I would ask for minimum wall thickness measurements all along the length of the barrels and at several locations around the tubes from top rib to bottom rib. It's tough to make an informed decision without pertinent information.






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[Garth Gustafson]

.023 MWT is thin and certainly is a cause for concern, depending on where the measurement was taken. If it was taken in front of the chamber then it's a big concern. If it was taken closer to the muzzle, then its a lesser concern. The good thing is Bachelder is one of the best barrelmen in the country and he will give you solid advice

[Mills Morrison]

I would look for some orphan barrels and just keep the old barrels laid aside somewhere. Orphan barrels should not be too hard to find

[allen newell]

Kirk, if it were mine, I'd go with option #3. If you bought it with the intention of using it. then make it a shooter again. If you bought it to admire it, then hang it on the wall and cut your losses now. My opinion only.

[Garth Gustafson]

One of the things that attracted you to this CH were those lovely Bernard barrels. And your gun has provenance. If it were me (and isn't it easy to spend somebody else's money?), I would sleeve and refinish those barrels. They will look beautiful and be a source of pride. Replacing a set of Bernards with something of lesser appeal just doesn't seem right on a high grade gun like yours.

[Rick Losey]

I think you mean line them not sleeve them?

as Mark did
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21127&page=2

[Garth Gustafson]

Thanks Rick, Briley tubes

[Kirk Potter]

One of the things that attracted you to this CH were those lovely Bernard barrels. And your gun has provenance. If it were me (and isn't it easy to spend somebody else's money?), I would sleeve and refinish those barrels. They will look beautiful and be a source of pride. Replacing a set of Bernards with something of lesser appeal just doesn't seem right on a high grade gun like yours.

I like the idea in theory, just not sure I want a 8+ LB 20 gauge.. Even the Briley UltraLite tubes will add at least 3/4 LB.

[allen newell]

Kirk, Mills' answer makes good sense. Keep the origonal barrels. Anyway, thats what Mills and j would do. You bought it to shoot didnt you?

[MARK KIRCHER]

Kirk -

I just went trough a very similar experience - Split barrel - liners inserted by Brad. Detailed below.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21127

IMO it Would make a beautiful 16 or 20 if it is deemed unsafe as is.

Mark

[Kirk Potter]

I think I’ll probably get them redone with the Briley tubes. I’d still like to find some 28” steel barrels eventually, would be nice to keep the original barrels with the gun even if they aren’t used that much, + have a set I could throw on and and use in the fall.

Thanks everyone.

[Mills Morrison]

I have a GH with original barrels bulged and cut to 23 inches. Brian Dudley found some replacement barrels for it and it is one of my favorite shooting guns with the replacement barrels. I bought a Boyt two barrel case and keep both barrels in it. That system works well for me.

Your Bernard barrels would be great if you ever wanted to display the gun.

[Craig Budgeon]

Kirk, you can proof test those barrels yourself. The components required are an inflated spare tire, rope or heavy duty ty-raps, 80 ft. of heavy string, 2 3/4" magnum loads a hard hat , and eye protection. While proof testing has huge risk to those Bernard barrels it will determine any safety concerns. More than 40 years ago I was involve with an AH 12 ga. damascus gun that the dealer wanted to replace the damascus with Vulcan barrels. I convinced him that the gun would be much more desirable with both sets of barrels. I assure you the gun will shoot as well with Vulcan barrels as it will with Titanic barrels.

[Kirk Potter]

When fitting similar frame size barrels to a different gun, is their ever a situation where it just could not be done? Obviously I have no way to test fitment unless I was to buy locally.

[Craig Budgeon]

Kirk, matching frame size is most important, the width of the breech on the barrels should match the width of the fences on the action ( .010-.020 would be acceptable ), a full rib extension would be desirable, ejector or Damascus barrels should not be excluded, seek expert advice before purchase if possible ( 3 day inspection, approval , loan, etc.), after you outline your requirements use this forum to assist you in your search, buy barrels in very good or better condition ( poor condition barrels are a money pit ), and finally be patient , you have the gun, the barrels you need are out there.

[Richard Flanders]

I think the answer to Kirks question is, yes, there are times when barrels are not able to be fit properly enough, even if the right frame size. Seems there's been posts on here stating that. Seems like I've read everything from "they dropped on and fit better than the originals", to "just couldn't make them work". Others who know far more than I should chime in here on this one.

[Kirk Potter]

Thanks, I read somewhere on here someone was saying to try and keep within 10,000 of your gun.. Obviously not possible in this case.

These are 2 frame 28” barrels choked F/F.. described as being in good shape, not really liking the condition of the dolls head.

[Rick Losey]

the dolls head may end up needing fitting anyway

[Craig Budgeon]

That dollshead looks like it can be easily be repaired with an expert tig welder who must use cold rolled rod, NO SS rod. Width of the breech is important. Comparing the width of your lug to the Vulcan barrels would be advisable, 002 or less is OK, the Vulcan larger is best.

[Craig Budgeon]

Richard, I gave Kirk 2 disqualifiers, frame size and width of breech, giving him more may cause him to reject a perfectly acceptable set of barrels. Fitting a set of barrels that had been previously fitted often involves compromise, that's why I encouraged Kirk to seek professional advice. Richard while your statement is true and I understood Kirks question I chose not to answer it as I felt I would confuse him. Finally, what one man accepts in doing this work another man may reject as a result of compromise.

[Kirk Potter]

I called Bachelder’s the other day and told them to just send the barrels back. I’m starting to think this is just going to be a lesson learned about impulse buying. :nono:

I was fine being underwater on a Bernard CH, but it’s looking more and more like I’d have quite a bit more into a Bernard CH with Vulcan barrels than what you could just buy a Bernard CH for.

Thanks to everyone who helped and offered advice.

[Mills Morrison]

Sometimes it is best to cut your losses and not pour any more money into a gun. It is a hard pill to swallow, but is wise

[Bill Murphy]

I would have Brad clean up the muzzle and then send it to Briley for ultralight tubes, 20 gauge would be the lightest. I would not restore the Bernard pattern at great expense.

[Craig Budgeon]

Kirk if you feel this way in a month, sell it. You will probably break even or possibly make a profit. Most people that pursue this hobby have paid for there education at one time or another and you are no exception.