AAHE 20 Gauge

[Kirk Potter]

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/parker-shotguns/parker-aahe-20-gauge-2-barrel-set.cfm?gun_id=100945304

Is it just me or do those checkered side panels not look very good?.. That cant be original right? For that price..

[Ken Descovich]

Who ever did that checkering should be horse whipped.

[James L. Martin]

The checkered side panels do not look right to me, also the fit of the stock ,the gaps and is that glass between the gaps? not what I would expect of a AAHE.

[Kirk Potter]

Who ever did that checkering should be horse whipped.

Right? No consistency whatsoever.. Forends are the same way. Nothing matches.

[Brian Dudley]

The checkering and rest of the stock work on that thing are horrendous. Fully restored by DelGrego in 2013... huh... well, the proof is in the pudding.

The best part of that gun is the Case Colors. By the way...Turnbull colors their guns for them now.

[Daniel G Rainey]

Thanks to everyone for their input on the AAHE. The gun did not smell good to me so I must be learning..

[Robert Brooks]

Looks like restock to me. Bobby

[David Dwyer]

It is a shame that such a beautiful Parker was so poorly "restored". In that condition maybe $50K?
David

[Kirk Potter]

I’m surprised DelGrego would let that go out..

[Bill Mullins]

Great engraving and nice restored case colors!
Love the duck scenes!

[Bill Murphy]

That gun shows no sign of a DelGrego restock.

[Dean Romig]

To me it looks like the checkering has all been recut while attempting to keep to the original checkering pattern and style, However, the "ruptured duck" flying in the cheek panels was most probably originally a fleur de lis but poorly interpreted in recutting. The nose of the comb has also obviously been reshaped from that which would have been on a Parker of that vintage.

The reason that I form my opinion thus is that the sculpted fleur de lis drop points appear to be completely original in shape and form with the correct amount of wear to them.





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[Mills Morrison]

Yes, it is pretty ugly, if you ask me

[Bruce Day]

Originals :

[edgarspencer]

I could learn to live with it.

[Alan Phillips]

It is only an "A" but you get the idea.

[John Allen]

I think the gun is an upgrade.There are several of them floating around now.All seem to fall into the serial range that can't be authenticated.Back in the 70s you could buy a VHE 20 for $1000,spend $2500 on engraving,$2000 on wood,and $1500 on metalwork and then sell the gun for $25,000.There were few sources of information on Parkers back then.
A lot of big dealers upgraded guns and sold them as upgrades.After they changed hands a couple of times people thought they were original.

[Brian Dudley]

And there is a good reason why they cannot be authenticated...

[John Allen]

Yep,If they can make it,they can fake it.

[Craig Budgeon]

I doubt the wood on that Parker has ever been within 25 miles of Illion, NY.

[Bill Murphy]

OK, who is going to be the one who requests the "documentation" and DelGrego correspondence?

[edgarspencer]

Are there any records, or a list of Pachmayr upgrades? I'm not saying that because I think the subject gun is an upgrade, Pachmayr of otherwise. I see some details which I have never seen on Parkers before, but I see other details that in no way indicate alteration.
I think we have all seen some extreme interpretation of engraved wildlife in the birds and dogs on Parkers, and the ducks on this gun certainly fall into that 'WTH' category.

[Craig Budgeon]

If I was interested in the purchase of this Parker, I would contact the DelGregos rather than the guns purveyor.

[John Allen]

DelGrego did some upgraded guns as well as Pachmayr.They may have some record of the gun or at least the restoration work.

[Dean Romig]

As I said in an earlier post, the Fleur De Lis 'drop points' appear to be worn and unaltered originals. The rib inscription ("roll stamp") and matting in my opinion are unaltered original. Enlarge it and look closely at every detail, including the single line overrun of the matting at the breech end of the clear space of the rib just beyond the arrow.

And I believe the engraving is original Meriden engraving as well. Look at the engraving on the forend irons and latches. The forend checkering patterns are of the original style as well.... just very poorly recut.





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[Brian Dudley]

Delgrego supposably only keeps records by customer name. Not by serial number. So asking about the work with them would get you nowhere.
It would be better to ask the seller, who states it was “fully restored” in 2013 about their knowledge of it. I would be interested if they say the wood was done at that time. To me a “full” restoration includes wood.

[Craig Budgeon]

Since I find many of the remarks made by the purveyor of 231570 neither plausible nor accurate, I would be inclined to ask the the DelGregos if they remembered the gun in the last 4 years. Not that many grade 7 walk thru any ones doors and since there reputation is not enhanced by this gun I'll bet they take an interest.

[edgarspencer]

And I believe the engraving is original Meriden engraving as well.

The chain engraving on all the borders is most definitely Meriden era engraving.

It seems odd that the barrel marked "1" has the late reinforced fore end lug, and barrel "2" does not. (picture #22)

Picture #17 shows the grade number (7) was stamped with the same stamp as the '7' in the serial number. Had this been a lower grade gun and then upgraded, it would have been necessary to remove, by grinding, the grade lettering(now AAH), and number ( now7) and weld the excavated area back up, then blend the weld back down to the water table. The colors from re-hardening most definitely would not be uniform across this area, simply because filler material is never exactly the same chemistry as the base metal. I'm only saying this after looking at literally thousands of photo micrographs in the met lab at my company.

Dean previously indicated the comb's nose looks to be altered, and it certainly is more 'Illion-esque', than Meriden styled stock work. This would require the entire checkered portion of the wrist be redone. I just can't get over the hideous treatment inside the cheek panels and on the checkered butt.
I don't think the gun started any lower than a grade seven, but I couldn't even hazard a guess as to the originality of any of the wood.

[Bobby Cash]

I know B.C. Kinsey to be an honest and straight forward gentleman.
If you've got questions, why not give him the benefit of the doubt and ask him?

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar I recently saw an upgraded BHE 28 by the team of DelGrego & Runge, it certainly did not hurt the Parker reputation for craftsmanship.

[Dean Romig]

Of course the engraving was up to standards - after all, Robert Runge was chief engraver for Remington to the end of Parker production, having started with Parker Bros. in Meriden and was one of the few who moved to Ilion when Remington mover the Parker operation there. His work is coveted and very distinguishable.






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[Brian Dudley]

I know B.C. Kinsey to be an honest and straight forward gentleman.
If you've got questions, why not give him the benefit of the doubt and ask him?



I did just that. And i got a prompt reply.

He said the gun was stocked by Delgrego using the gun’s (then) owner’s wood and the metal also restored. Engraving was taken up by Lee Griffiths. Charge for work in 2013 was close to $13k.

There you go.

[Dean Romig]

"Engraving was "taken up"

Does this mean the worn engraving was 'picked up' or 'freshened up'? These are the terms I most often see used.





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[edgarspencer]

Edgar I recently saw an upgraded BHE 28 by the team of DelGrego & Runge, it certainly did not hurt the Parker reputation for craftsmanship.

I'm not sure I follow your point, but I don't believe either a great upgrade, or a horrible upgrade has any impact of the Parker reputation.

[chris dawe]

All back and forth aside ,the negative stock work could be easily remedied ...just my opinion of course

[Jim DiSpagno]

That’s easy for you to say Nephew. You are one of the best stock men I’ve seen in the last forty plus years

[Ed Blake]

13 large for that? I can’t imagine....

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar my point was that of the 2 upgraded Parkers I have examined attributed to Delgrego I found both guns to be excellent examples of the grades they were intended to represent. I believe the other upgrade I saw by DelGrego was an AHE 20 but that was decades ago. While I haven't always found a Delgrego refinished gun appealing to me, I also have never seen one that lacks the craftsmanship in the wood inletting and checkering that 231570 does. In addition the stock finish sucks and the stock blank looks like English walnut to me.

[edgarspencer]

Could one of our gunsmiths explain what kind of trigger we're looking at in picture number 14 of 24? It appears that the trigger itself does not go through the usual slot in the trigger plate, but through some rectangular piece, that in turn, goes through the trigger plate.
Looking at photo #2, it appears the front trigger sits lower, almost to the point of touching the guard.
Not one I recall ever seeing.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar my point was that of the 2 upgraded Parkers I have examined attributed to Delgrego I found both guns to be excellent examples of the grades they were intended to represent. I believe the other upgrade I saw by DelGrego was an AHE 20 but that was decades ago. While I haven't always found a Delgrego refinished gun appealing to me, I also have never seen one that lacks the craftsmanship in the wood inletting and checkering that 231570 does. In addition the stock finish sucks and the stock blank looks like English walnut to me.

Craig, I don't doubt they were beautiful upgrades. It only makes sense, since they were engraved by Runge. The only part of your comment I didn't understand was how anyone's upgrade would reflect poorly on the original maker.
The only complaint I have ever had, and everytime I see an example of, renew my feeling, is that Delgrego's outsourced cyanide case hardening colors were, in most case, simply garish.

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar I believe that when these upgraded guns were created in the '40s and '50s for the executives of Remington and DuPont, they probably viewed these guns as much Parker as those produced in Meridan. By upgrading existing guns they could have a new Parker and no one cared rather it was a prewar or postwar built Parker. Between Remingtons Custom Shop, Runge, and DelGrego I assume that some beautiful Parker were acquired by their new owners at a very favorable price. Different times, different views.

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar, I assume you never had a receiver torch colored by Lefever Arms either.

[Dean Romig]

Edgar I believe that when these upgraded guns were created in the '40s and '50s for the executives of Remington and DuPont, they probably viewed these guns as much Parker as those produced in Meridan. By upgrading existing guns they could have a new Parker and no one cared rather it was a prewar or postwar built Parker. Between Remingtons Custom Shop, Runge, and DelGrego I assume that some beautiful Parker were acquired by their new owners at a very favorable price. Different times, different views.


Craig, if I may ask, which upgraded guns are you referring to?





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[Craig Budgeon]

I know of 2 upgraded Parkers owned by decendents of Remington executives 1 being that BHE 28 the other a DHE 20. The BHE has been mentioned briefly in a DGJ article(?) and The DHE was owned by an officer of Remington Arms. I'm vague because I have promised to protect his identity. The current owner of the BHE has been very forthcoming about the culture at Remington around this time since his dad was hired post WWII and was promoted throughout his career there.

[Dean Romig]

Ok thanks Craig - so execs owning upgraded Parkers represent only a tiny percentage of the upgrades. That makes sense.





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[Craig Budgeon]

I can't answer that question about quantity but I certainly think it started in Remingtons factory and I believe part of the reason was they didn't want to be out done by the boys at Olin/ Winchester with there 21's. Upgrades seemed popular in the 70's about that time I heard someone had an Invincible built for 40K but no name was attached nor gun appeared. Finally after 47 years I'have yet to see an upgrade L.C. Smith, Fox, or Lefever or even known of 1.

[Dean Romig]

Not a question really Craig. Remington also had the Model 32. It was also a fine gun and lent itself to upgrades as well.

I'm sure there are Fox upgrades and I know there are Lefever upgrades, there being virtually no remaining Lefever factory records in existence. Can't really imagine an LC Smith upgrad though....





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[Craig Budgeon]

Dean, I have picked up 1 Mod. 32 and seen atleast one other in my lifetime. I know of no collectors and never seen one change hands. Add the previous facts plus the fact I have never seen an upgraded L.C. Smith, Fox, and Lefever and it sure looks like I've led sheltered life. Maybe so, but right now I'm tired and need my sleep so Ican eat lots of stuffing and apple pie tomorrow. Happy Thanksgiving Dean, the time you devote to this forum is appreciated by this member. Thanks, Craig.

[Rich Anderson]

Finally after 47 years I'have yet to see an upgrade L.C. Smith, Fox, or Lefever or even known of 1.

I have a Lefever 16ga Optimus that is a beautiful gun and an upgrade.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar, I assume you never had a receiver torch colored by Lefever Arms either.

No, but that's kind of a strange question. Was there a point to it? Have I ever said anything to lead you to believe I had a receiver torch colored by anyone?

[Bruce Day]

So that’s where it ended up! With Rich Anderson.

[John Dallas]

Don't know about earlier times, but in the late 60's, Remington Directors paid dealer cost for guns they ordered. Only exception that I know of is that when a person was elected to the Board, Remington would make and give a gun of the new director's choice to him.

[allen newell]

I had DelGrego fully restore a 16 VH about 8 yrs ago. New wood (they provided),case colors and re blue barrels. The case colors on the frame hardly lasted two seasons.

[Craig Budgeon]

Dean, on further reflection and fresh coffee, I believe the 32 I picked up was a 3200 and the 32 I saw on the table might have been a Kriegoff instead. As the cobwebs ease I now remember seeing a DE Fox 20 upgrade offered for sale in a DGJ and thanks to members I have been made aware of a fine representation of a LeFever Optimus. My sheltered life is now over and another member knows where that Optimus resides. Edgar my only point to you and this forum was that the process existed and while you found the cyanide case used by DelGrego garish I think most of our forum members would find flame coloring as offensive. I think the charge for this service was $45 in the early "70s.

[Rich Anderson]

At one time I had an upgraded BHE 28. I sold it and bought a wonderful upgraded AAHE 28 two barrel set. Upgrades or not both the Parker and Lefever are wonderful guns.

[Kirk Potter]

Rich, I'm jealous.. You own some absolutely beautiful shotguns.

[Rich Anderson]

Thank you Kirk

[William Kinsey]

Regarding the AAHE 20 in this thread. Attached is what documentation that I have been able to put together to support this gun. The DelGrego note of 1997 and then Exhibit 6, the letter to Larry about the "restoration". I know that these are legitimate documents and they all involve the gentleman from who I acquired this AAHE. Thanks