How did they do that

[Patrick Lien]

How did Parker put those ribbons around the bolsters on high grades? Were there different castings for these guns? Does anyone have anything on the actual process Parker used to get this feature on these graded guns. I know you can weld them up and fake them and I am thinking Parker did not use this method. I am Just curious if anyone knows what Parker actually did. Educate me please.

Patrick

[Dean Romig]

I believe I had read that the ribbons or 'beads' were filed into a standard frame casting.





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[Brian Dudley]

The raw frames had enough metal to file them in.

[Patrick Lien]

The raw frames had enough metal to file them in.

Ok, does anyone have a raw frame that shows this extra bulk? Does this mean that 99% of the guns that Parker made had this excess removed manually and the 1% were shaped specifically for graded guns? I don’t accept that assumption from a company that survived 50 years in the Industrial Age. If you have one, please show me one of those original castings that supports this. I just want to know the TRUTH if it still exists with any facts. A rough forging showing the excess around the bolsters WITH MEASUREMENTS would answer my question.



Thankyou
Patrick

[Ralph English]

Based on the time of Patrick's last post, I think this question is keeping him
up at night!
Help please!!

[Brian Dudley]

This raw casting is pictured in TPS. I do not know of any others out there. But this woild be before any machining.

58387

[Brian Dudley]

If they were anything like the fox frames, there was a good amount of metal left once the hand took over from the machine.

58388

[Patrick Lien]

This raw casting is pictured in TPS. I do not know of any others out there. But this woild be before any machining.

58387

Thank you

Patrick

[Dean Romig]

Patrick, the various sizes of frames were all cast from the same moulds, specific to the frame size. All frames had the same amount of steel at the rear of the bolsters. Grades 4 and down only needed to be finish-shaped and polished while Grades 5 and higher had metal filed away while the single, double and triple beads were created.

A sculptor REMOVES marble to finally expose the beautiful form within. Same process as exposing the beads.





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[Kevin McCormack]

Very similar to carving a duck decoy - you take a block of wood and cut away anything that doesn't look like a duck.

I guess the next question would be how much weight was removed carving beads on the bolsters; e.g., do higher grade guns weigh proportionally less than lower grades due to the amount of metal removed?

[Paul Harm]

You now have a TRUTHFUL answer to your question. Thank you Brian.

[Todd Poer]

The way I look at it is that there maybe some metal removed from the frame as part of process to create the scroll work but I think it is obviously on sides and is in an area that does not receive a lot of stress. Meaning even if you removed 5% of the metal there, betting there is more than enough metal there to do the job for life of gun and then some. Its simply cosmetic and the structure is probably very sound. The real issue is the strength of the metal at the face and tangs as it integrates into the the stock. I would be more concerned with a bad casting then the scrollwork weakening the action. I think they knew if they had a flawed casting or would not attempt to put so much work into it. Besides I have never heard of Parker failing there if gun was reasonably cared for, but I do think its a reasonable question. Would not want an old gun blowing up in my face just because it was pretty.

The real business happens inside the barrels. The only thing I could think of removing that little amount of metal would be to overall weight of gun and maybe balance point. I think they took in this into account when they made these guns.

[Brian Dudley]

Very similar to carving a duck decoy - you take a block of wood and cut away anything that doesn't look like a duck.

I guess the next question would be how much weight was removed carving beads on the bolsters; e.g., do higher grade guns weigh proportionally less than lower grades due to the amount of metal removed?


I would guess that there not too much of a material or weight difference between low grade guns and guns with single beads. But if you look at double or triple beaded guns, the balled areas of the bolsters are actually smaller since the 2nd and 3rd beads are cut from what would be a solid bolster on a lower grade gun, so, on those highest grades, i would suppose that there would be a weight difference.

[Dean Romig]

Like maybe 1/4 oz.





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[Craig Larter]

All I know is the beads are very classy. Kind of like the frame rebate filing on Fox XE. The frame filing on grade 3 top lever hammer guns is very classy, a modified two bead treatment.

[Dave Noreen]

I believe that is a forging not a casting.

[Bill Zachow]

Reseacher, you beat me to it. All frames were hammer forged using a very large, motor driven, drop forge hammer.

[Brian Hornacek]

My upgrade being done now has the beads. A weld line was added around the breach balls and the side bead was made by filing the profile lower. A lot of time and a true craftsman.

[edgarspencer]

Reseacher, you beat me to it. All frames were hammer forged using a very large, motor driven, drop forge hammer.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the frames were done on a steam forge, at Billings Forge (Billings & Spencer) on Broad Street, in Hartford. Only a few hundred yards from the Capitol building.

[Dean Romig]

Was that your great grandfather's forge Edgar?


Were the frame forgings "bulldozed" to shape while being forged?





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[Robin Lewis]

I worked at Pittsburgh Forge from 1965 - 1971 and watched lots of hot steel go through a steam and board drop hammers. It was not a fun place to work!!!! It wouldn't take long to stamp out a Parker frame, working on piece work incentives, I imagine they would make 3 or 4 a minute.

[edgarspencer]

Was that your great grandfather's forge Edgar?


Were the frame forgings "bulldozed" to shape while being forged?

The Spencer, of Billings & Spencer was Christopher Spencer, my Great Grandfather's first cousin. He had a spinning and weaving mill in Manchester before going into partnership with Charles Billings, approx 1870. Their principle product lines were mostly sporting related, and their biggest local customer, also in Hartford, was Columbia Bicycle.
Spencer had something to do with a gun, prior to this. He invented the Spencer Repeating rifle, which he personally sold to Abraham Lincoln.
From the picture of the rough forging in TPS, it would appear they were closed die forgings.

[George M. Purtill]

Edgar knows everything. And he remembers everything...

[Todd Poer]

Mr. Spencer and Mr. Lewis;

It is great to hear your expert opinions and thoughts based on your backgrounds. I know this is not absolute and maybe is not a real concern but was wondering with these older guns and obviously older metals is if steel crystallization is a problem.

All I know is that my family had a general store a long time ago and my grandparents were antique collectors and had old barns full of stuff. When store was closed the just moved stuff they did not sell into the old barn. 50 years later when I was a kid I rummage around and find a bunch of old wedges for wood splitting. A couple were old, never used and not rusted. So I did not think twice about using them since I had some old twisted hardwood needing to be split. Split a few logs and then on third log a big chunk of metal came flying off. You could see where steel had recrystallized.

Obviously quality of steel could be different from a wedge to a gun frame but... With as thin as some of these metals are, inconsistent quality controls, and now time should this be a concern. I don't know if there is anyway to tell if there is a process like that working until it just fails but do either of you gentlemen have any thoughts.

I know crystallization process and causes are sort of a hard subject to discuss and I don't know that any reasonable use of these guns could be a problem, but always wondered about manufacturing process and just time that leads to these issues.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar knows everything. And he remembers everything...

Damn farmer doesn't come around for a year and when he finally blesses us with his presence it's to bust my breechballs.

[edgarspencer]

Mr. Spencer and Mr. Lewis;

It is great to hear your expert opinions and thoughts based on your backgrounds. I know this is not absolute and maybe is not a real concern but was wondering with these older guns and obviously older metals is if steel crystallization is a problem. Not a concern of mine. Maybe it is to others

All I know is that my family had a general store a long time ago and my grandparents were antique collectors and had old barns full of stuff. When store was closed the just moved stuff they did not sell into the old barn. 50 years later when I was a kid I rummage around and find a bunch of old wedges for wood splitting. A couple were old, never used and not rusted. So I did not think twice about using them since I had some old twisted hardwood needing to be split. Split a few logs and then on third log a big chunk of metal came flying off. You could see where steel had recrystallized. Not even sure what you mean by 'recrystallized'. A splitting wedge is so far down the quality chain, it isn't surprising that it may have been made from sweepalloy, and heated treated likewise.

Obviously quality of steel could be different from a wedge to a gun frame but... Yup, Obviously
I know crystallization process and causes are sort of a hard subject to discuss and I don't know that any reasonable use of these guns could be a problem, but always wondered about manufacturing process and just time that leads to these issues. What you're probably alluding to is something referred to as Inter-granular Attack, or Inter-granular Corrosion. A shotgun receiver is highly unlikely to find itself in the environment suitable to begin such a process.

[Bruce Day]

Parker and other quality makers did not bore their barrels from poured castings of low quality steel or iron.

[George M. Purtill]

Damn farmer doesn't come around for a year and when he finally blesses us with his presence it's to bust my breechballs.

Haven’t been on forum since July. But I had to look Phil Carr since I’m in Tucson for a wedding. And I saw some of those quail on the golf course this morning!!!!

[Todd Poer]

Thank you. I know they had different qualities of metal for different tasks and I was using the wedges as an example. Plus I was pounding that steel with a sledge hammer and not on a gun. My understanding is that when in forging process the granular attack or crystallization could start setup and then its just time. I have heard a lot argument either way. I don't know that I am as concerned about it as much with fluid steel its the some of the older guns with damascus or twist steel, but guess those issues fail for pitting or corrosion. .

I know a lot of folks are damn the torpedo full steam ahead and have had little problems. Probably there are low odds but glad to hear your views.

[Craig Budgeon]

The Britsh use chisels in part to carve there fences, I suspect Parker would use chisels to generate the ribbons also.

[Russell E. Cleary]

The Spencer, of Billings & Spencer was Christopher Spencer, my Great Grandfather's first cousin. He had a spinning and weaving mill in Manchester before going into partnership with Charles Billings, approx 1870. Their principle product lines were mostly sporting related, and their biggest local customer, also in Hartford, was Columbia Bicycle.
Spencer had something to do with a gun, prior to this. He invented the Spencer Repeating rifle, which he personally sold to Abraham Lincoln.
From the picture of the rough forging in TPS, it would appear they were closed die forgings.

There is an article in this month’s (May, 2020) KNIFE magazine, by knife writer and researcher Lee Schechter about Billings & Spencer. It features the concern’s manufacture of all-metal knives, a minor part of the business that most knife collectors have no knowledge of.

One weapon, of cross-over interest, would be the (indispensable for every-day-carry?) knife-pistol (U. S. Patent #82,279).

A combination Sliding Knife with Screw-driver heads was called the Sportsman’s Knife and was advertised in FIELD & STREAM in 1908.

According to the article, Billings & Spencer “excelled in in the manufacturing of hand tools, parts for sewing machines and firearms as well as further developing of drop hammer technology”.

An early 20th Century company report said they were using seventy-five drop hammers at the factory.

Ref.: KNIFE MAGAZINE, P. O. Box 11012, Knoxville, Tennessee 37939; 800-828-7751

[Dean Romig]

I have a couple of old tools with that triangle-B and never even wondered about it...

Thanks for the education Edgar and Russell.





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[Garth Gustafson]

I recently stumbled across the old Billings and Spencer forge when I was in town visiting Hartford Hospital. Good to know that this historic manufacturing facility has been saved and re-adapted for housing and a restaurant.

[edgarspencer]

The Firebox is a favorite. Not the best part of town but safe enough.
Hartford Hospital and I are in a first name basis.

[edgarspencer]

Billings made first class hand tools. Finger tools also.

[Michael Moffa]

Is Vitalloy related to Veta-Vita-Vegimens?

[David Noble]

Is Vitalloy related to Veta-Vita-Vegimens?

LUCY!!!!!

[edgarspencer]

Is Vitalloy related to Veta-Vita-Vegimens?

Vaguely

[Garth Gustafson]

The Firebox is a favorite. Not the best part of town but safe enough.
Hartford Hospital and I are in a first name basis.

I hope its because the Spencers have a plaque on the wall and not because you spend too much time there.

[allen newell]

Yes folks, The PGCA forum is also a great place for creative humor. Lol

[Garth Gustafson]

The Spencer, of Billings & Spencer was Christopher Spencer, my Great Grandfather's first cousin. He had a spinning and weaving mill in Manchester before going into partnership with Charles Billings, approx 1870. Their principle product lines were mostly sporting related, and their biggest local customer, also in Hartford, was Columbia Bicycle.
Spencer had something to do with a gun, prior to this. He invented the Spencer Repeating rifle, which he personally sold to Abraham Lincoln.
From the picture of the rough forging in TPS, it would appear they were closed die forgings.

Came across this ad, in of all places, an 1898 Hartford trolley line pamphlet. I remember having the same one as a kid, I might even still have it. That you on the wrench guitar Edgar?

[edgarspencer]

Came across this ad, in of all places, an 1898 Hartford trolley line pamphlet. I remember having the same one as a kid, I might even still have it. That you on the wrench guitar Edgar?

Ha.....ha.....ha.
You’re off my Christmas card list.
Just kidding.
I’ve never seen that ad. Neat