Old Parker Found... Need Guidance

[david schmidt]

I recently found several old guns in my late father-in-laws collection, which included what I believe to be a genuine Parker Brothers shotgun. I’ve been told that it’s a knock-off, and I’ve also been told that it’s a genuine Parker Bros but older than the normal “collectible”. So I’m left very confused on what we really have and the story behind it.

If anyone can provide any insight and/or direct me to someone knowledgeable in Northern Indiana, it would be much appreciated.

The details, I can gather, are:

- Serial number matches on all parts and is B2543.

- What I believe is the grade, above the serial number, is F9R.

- On the underside of one of the barrels, near the bridge, is what may have been a C then some spaces and 11. Above it, closer to the flats is a 3.

- And then on the flats, in much smaller stamp, is J.L.

- The bridge between the barrels, says Parker Bros Makers Meriden Conn Damascus Steel

- There’s a rifled insert running the length of one barrel, with its own ejector, but is easily removed, by removing the threaded brass keeper at the muzzle end. It slides right out.

Please pardon my terminology, if any is incorrect.

Here are some photos…
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/PB1.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/PB2.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/PB3.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/IMG_4058.jpg

[Chuck Bishop]

David,

Yes you have a real Parker Brothers shotgun and looks to be made in 1874. Your Parker is a very early example made before the advent of the recessed hinge pin. It's hard to determine the grade but it is unique that it has damascus barrels which were usually reserved for higher grades. See if you can provide in focus closeups of as much of the receiver as possible. It should be a 12ga with 30" barrels. It could be a very early example of a Quality D grade but I'll let others chime in when you provide more pictures. P.S. Make the pictures as big as possible, closeup, and in focus

[Chuck Bishop]

Collectability and value are mostly based on condition with the barrels being the most important. If the barrels are bad, it's just a wall hanger. Do the barrels measure 30", are the interior of the barrels pitted, are the ribs between the barrels loose? Sometimes only a qualified gunsmith familiar with vintage guns can tell. Although it's not allowed to advertise guns for sale on this forum, I'm sure you will get advice on what the range of value is once we see some pictures and get info on the barrel condition.

[david schmidt]

The gun does appear to be chambered for 12 gauge. The barrels measure 31.5" from muzzle to breech. Yes there's visible pitting on the interiors of the barrels, but they don't appear to be at all loose.

Here's some more photos:

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/Parker9.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/Parker8.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/Parker7.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/Parker6.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/Parker5.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/Parker4.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/Parker3.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/Parker2.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/Parker1.jpg

[Robin Lewis]

Thanks. Interesting Parker.

[david schmidt]

What is more interesting is that nobody new he had it. This gun and a couple rare WWII pistols were just in his closet!

[Austin W Hogan]

Wipe the gun down gently with a soft cloth perhaps dampened with a little mineral spirits. It has nice sharp corners and may retain much more finish than you percieve. Clean the bore with ordinary Hoppes or equivalant, and if you see anything looking like brown rust wipe the spot gently with the damp cleaning patch.
A brown spot on the cleaning patch indicates either some soft rust , old oxidized oil, or old powder residue is on the spot rubbed.
Don't use any anti rust or rust removing oils or polishes. Bluing and the colors from the case hardening process are really just pretty forms of rust and anti rust treatments will remove them as well. Dab some RIG ( now again available) or other gun gease on a soft cloth or piece of fur, and rub down the metal parts. This will protect it from your hands when you examine it.
I have encountered several early lifter Parkers that appearred much like yours. I found that many dark spots that look like rust are really a scale or perhaps a fungus adhering to the surface that is quite soft. A weekly rub down with a Hoppes patch followed by a clean cloth rub down and a fresh application of grease removes these soft deposits without removing metal. I have also cleaned off these deposits with an ultra sonic cleaner, but this requires some dissassembly.
Be patient; don't use abrasives or strong solvents.
I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the appearance of this gun after a gentle cleaning

Best Austin

[Dean Romig]

David, please post pictures of the rifled insert and the threaded keeper as well as the threads at the muzzle. The majority of us have never seen such a setup and it would be very educational to view it in it's disassembled state.

We would also like to see more pictures of the stock from both sides, the buttplate and the forend. The wood looks to be in pretty good shape.

[Bill Murphy]

Price indicates that an early gun with Damascus barrels is posted in the stock books as a D regardless of actual degree of decoration or grade. This appears to be what we would normally call a 0 or 1 grade gun. Very early guns were priced by barrel material and/or quality more than by degree of decoration until above a certain grade.

[Austin W Hogan]

Bill; I think D refers to Dollar Grade, in the era before s/n 6000, when price lists were changing rapidly and frequently. My 3215 ( pictured in both TPS and Serialization..) is pretty clearly a $200 or $250 (5 or6?) grade and my 3291 is pretty clearly a $135 (2) grade but both show as D for dollar. Both have Damascus barrels, but with little similarity. My twist barrel guns in this era show as T.
3215 has been well studied; the photo of it in TPS concludes that it is " the highest grade of the time". I can count 6 lamina in the damascus pattern; in my opinion that is the fore runner of grade 6.
Publication intervals, price lists, mailing speeds, shop operations and shipping dates are not well coordinated in this era; we will probably never determine the intended grade of many of these guns

Best, Austin

[John Truitt]

Sir,

If it is not too much trouble, please post/ add a picture of the breech end of your barrels and the rifle tube and its muzzle end attachment.
I have a friend who has read about these type of rifle insert tubes and has two guns which have small cut outs at the breech end which he believes was to fit rifle tubes. He is currently having sets of these made so he may shoot them at the Vintagers rifle competitions.
I have only heard about these types of inserts but never seen any before.

Thank you,
John Truitt

[Austin W Hogan]

David: I am not sure where you live, but if it is any where Pin Tail Point Md, please bring it to the annual meeting. This gun is a real challenge to attempt to grade. We cannot see the damascus pattern in the photos; the gold shield indicates the upper half of the grade ranges; the sparse engraving the lower half. The gun appears to be listed in the archive; perhaps the Research Committee will have some input.
If you are able to come to Pin Tail, many of us will have a grand time analyzing it.
Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

Quoted from Charlie's "Book":

"D - First Serial 1858, Gun Count 1804, Early guns with "D" quality code have damascus steel barrels, but the quality or grade is inderterminate, majority of these have serials below 6000."

"D2 - First Serial 3830, Grade 2 guns (grades E,F,G, and H) with damascus steel barrels."

"D3 - First Serial 4975, Grade 3 guns with damascus steel barrels."

"D4 - First Serial 4983, Grade 4 guns (C grade) with Damascus steel barrels."

"D5 - First Serial 4982, Grade 5 guns (B grade) with damascus steel barrels."

"D6 - First Serial 5083, Grade 6 guns (A grade) with damascus steel barrels."

I don't understand where we arrive at "Dollar" from the "D" designation, especially where "T" indicates "Twist". To me it appears that the "D" designation, whether stamped on the barrel flats or in a book for "GRA" (grade) indicates Damascus.... but I may be wrong... :confused:

[david schmidt]

Gents,

Thanks for all the feedback thus far! Here's some more photos of the stock, etc.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/IMG_4145.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/IMG_4148.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/IMG_4147.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/IMG_4143.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/IMG_4144.jpg

Here's the muzzle end of the rifled insert, with the brass keeper. There are no machined cut-outs. It just nests inside the muzzle.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/IMG_4151.jpg

Here's the breech end, and as you can see there's a mating extractor on the insert.
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/IMG_4153.jpg

Sorry... I'm in North Central Indiana, about a half hour from South Bend.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks David, that rifled tube is great! I see that the brass cap helps to align (center) the tube as well as actually tightening it into the barrel.

I can't quite make out the checkering pattern on the forend - can't tell if it is the 2-point (grade 0 & 1) or 3-point (grade 2) pattern.

The checkering pattern shown is the 3-point pattern of the grade 2 guns. The 2-point pattern on the grade 0 & 1 only has the two large checkered diamonds and lacks the much smaller diamond in the center.

[Jeff Kuss]

David,
I live in Valparaiso. I would be glad to met and look at your gun for you.
Jeff Kuss
jkuss1@verizon.net

[Austin W Hogan]

Dean; See page 216 The Parker Story Dollar Grades.

Best, Austin

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Austin, I'll read that again. It's been a while since I've read the chapters on the grades, specifically page 216.

[James T. Kucaba]

I recently found several old guns in my late father-in-laws collection, which included what I believe to be a genuine Parker Brothers shotgun. I’ve been told that it’s a knock-off, and I’ve also been told that it’s a genuine Parker Bros but older than the normal “collectible”. So I’m left very confused on what we have and/or what it’s potentially worth. Our goal is to find a good home for it, with someone that can appreciate it. I’m a hunter, but not really a gun collector. And at the same time, my mother-in-law could really use the money to cover my late father-in-law's hospital bills.

If anyone can provide any insight and/or direct me to someone knowledgeable in Northern Indiana, it would be much appreciated.

The details, I can gather, are:

- Serial number matches on all parts and is B2543.

- What I believe is the grade, above the serial number, is F9R.

- On the underside of one of the barrels, near the bridge, is what may have been a C then some spaces and 11. Above it, closer to the flats is a 3.

- And then on the flats, in much smaller stamp, is J.L.

- The bridge between the barrels, says Parker Bros Makers Meriden Conn Damascus Steel

- There’s a rifled insert running the length of one barrel, with its own ejector, but is easily removed, by removing the threaded brass keeper at the muzzle end. It slides right out.

Please pardon my terminology, if any is incorrect.

Here are some photos…
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/PB1.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/PB2.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/PB3.jpg

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/deschmidt27/IMG_4058.jpg

David ... I sent you a "Personal Message" ... Jim Kucaba

[david schmidt]

In looking closer at the rifled tube insert, I found some stamped lettering at the breech end. There's a line that looks like it says "Brown &" and then there's more, but it is covered by some rust. It could probably be uncovered, but I didn't want to risk damaging it.

There's also another line that's half worn and rusted, but it may say "ENTERPRISES". It's smaller text, though.

[James T. Kucaba]

In looking closer at the rifled tube insert, I found some stamped lettering at the breech end. There's a line that looks like it says "Brown &" and then there's more, but it is covered by some rust. It could probably be uncovered, but I didn't want to risk damaging it.

There's also another line that's half worn and rusted, but it may say "ENTERPRISES". It's smaller text, though.

David ... I sent you a personal message a few days ago ... Jim Kucaba

[Richard Flanders]

What a wonderful find! I hope it makes it to Pintail and gets analyzed and photographed and documented to death for the archives.

[Bill Murphy]

When I was a pup, screw top barrel inserts in American double guns were rather common at gun shows. I would guess that most of them were removed and discarded, explaining why they are a bit scarce today.

[david schmidt]

Dean Romig - Upon further inspection it appears that there are some diamond check remnants at the center of the forend, between that metal slider that allows you to remove the forend, and then more towards the breech. It's all very worn...

[david schmidt]

I met with Jeff Kuss this morning, and he provided me a lot of great information. I didn't write it all down, but I imagine Jeff can fill everyone in, when he gets an opportunity. He was able to confirm that it is indeed a Parker and some of it's heritage.

Jeff - Please note that per our conversation, I edited my original post. Thank you so much, for your time and insight.

[Jeff Kuss]

David stopped by yesterday to show me his family parker. It is a good example of a very early lifter. David's pictures show most of the conditon of the gun. It does have some pitting in the bores, but I think they will clean up some with #9 and a brass brush. The wood is in surprisingly good shape. Most of the checkering is worn off. I would guess that the finish has been refreshed as it doesn't have any bare wood showing. The gun is slightly off face. Yesterday was the first time I had a chance to look at a set of barrel inserts with rifling. It was very interesting. The top rib has a rifle front and rear sight mounted on it for use with the rifle insert. It appears it me that the 31 1/2" barrels are correct. The barrels touch and it looks like there are keels in them. The top rib says Damascus steel, but the barrels are too dark to see any pattern at this time. #9 may help with that also.

[david schmidt]

Thanks for sharing your findings, Jeff! I really appreciate all the hospitality...