12ga shotshell loads and their equivalents

[Rick Riddell]

Please go easy as I'm still learning!
I have some Holland and Holland lite load 2 1/2 inch (15/16 26gram #8 fibre wad) on the box it is rated for guns proofed for 1 1/8 oz and a service pressure of 3 tons per square inch it also gives service pressure of 850 bars. My question is how does this relate to pressures that we look for when using vintage American doubles? I also have some Winchester Low Noise with the same powder charge and pellet size but at 2 3/4 inch with a plastic wad. These shells are documented at about 6 to 7,000 psi. Would the Hollands be similar in pressures? Also as the shot size gets smaller or larger does the pressure increase, or are they equivalent based on weight i.e 160 pellets of size 8 is equal to 200 pellets of size 9 based on weight and being pushed by the same amount of powder? I hope I'm looking at this correctly, but feel I may be way off base. Any discussion or guidance would be greatly appreciated! Once again thanks for your patience knowledge!!

Rick

[Paul Harm]

Maybe post this on the reloading forum.

[Paul Harm]

I believe 850 bars would be 12,328psi or there about. It's not telling you what the pressure of the shell is. What it's saying is the gun you use them in should have been proofed for 850 bars. Did you cut apart both shells to see if the powder was the same and throwing the same weight ? If not you can't say they're both throwing the same amount of powder. The pressure is determined by how much the shot, wad, and powder weigh times the velocity squared. The size of the shot has nothing to do with it. Most handloads for old shotgun are usually kept under 7500psi, depending on who's doing the loading. Some like under 7000, others under 8000psi. Usually, but not always, when velocity goes up the recoil goes up. Out of respect for the 100+ year old wood we like less of each.

[William Davis]

Personally, I would give the H&H shells to someone that has English Guns and start fresh with a known shell. Which one depends on what you plan to shoot. My newer Parkers 12 & 20 handle the lightest recommended load out of Hodgens or Alliants load data fine. Damascus Guns I run one charge bushing lighter than lightest recommended load. Either gage light shot loads, they are choked tight don't need a lot of shot and low recoil is a big advantage. 10 and 16 special cases, load data from the manufacturer lacking, very good information on this forum.

Factory shells, RST or one of the light recoil Italians, B&P or Fiochi. I don't know about the Winchester low recoils. Winchester bulk from Wal Mart is a terrible shell.

All opinion somebody else may see it differently

William

[John Campbell]

Maybe post this on the reloading forum.

Categorical logic aside, I must dare to make a brash suggestion about the cited ammunition:

Why not email H&H and/or Winchester directly and get the information straight from the horse's mouth? However, I know that might ruin the fun of a potentially endless thread...

[Rick Riddell]

I have the H&H for a Beretta, and have been using the Winchesters in a 2 frame GH. There is data out there for the Winchesters and I feel safe using them in the GH. I do use RST and recently purchased some Double wide spreaders from Polywad. I contacted the Hull cartridge company twice with no response. But seeing how the Winchesters and H&H are very similar, both 26 grams and #8 shot one being 2.5 and the other 2.75 it got me thinking about loads and pressures, unfortunately I don't have the experience the board has and thought to ask, as I find it absolutely fascinating. My ultimate goal is to load up some Parker brass shells and use them exclusively.

[Paul Harm]

Good luck with the brass shells - I never had any, at least with nitro powders. It seemed like I couldn't get enough resistance for a good burn by gluing in the OS card. All I got was bloopers, even with plenty of extra powder. No problem with BP. Charlie has had luck gluing them. The military and a fellow on another reloading web site roll the edge a bit to hold everything in place and have success.

[Rick Riddell]

Hey Paul thanks for the heads up!

[Drew Hause]

3 Tons (tons/sq. inch) is a 1954 Rules of Proof term for a maximum service load of 8,938 psi and was standard for 2 1/2" shells

Great Britain is a member of CIP - Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives and the H&H loads are "standard proof" meaning service pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; maximum statistical individual pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi; proof 930 BAR = 13,489 psi

Without sending 5 shells to a testing lab, only H&H can tell you the pressure.

There are a few factory load pressures at the bottom here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

[Paul Harm]

Drew, nice post. Rick, if you're thinking of reloading brass shells, go to the reloading forum and make a post. maybe Charlie will give a couple of hints.

[charlie cleveland]

the trick to loading brass shells is to put preasure on the top wad while hot glueing the shot card...charlie