Winchester Model 21 Grand American

[Kim I. Manning]

I am new to this forum, and have a question about Grand Americans. Even though it's a Parker forum, I figured some of the members might be able to point me in the right direction. Here is my question: Absent a Cody letter, is there any way to determine whether a purported "Grand American" was made by Winchester or is a copy? The Schwing book says that from 1960-1968, they would simply pick up a frame and use that for a G/A. He does not say whether the SN had already been stamped by that point. There appear to be three types of G/As floating around: real ones with a letter, CSMC guns, and "gray area" no letter types that could have been or were cobbled together by Galazan before he began producing his own.

I really appreciate any help I might get, and really enjoy the forum.

Thank you!

[Bill Anderson]

Cody also provides "work sheet" or "build sheet" information, but at a cost. I am a Cody museum member at $150 (1 year) and get 5 serial number look ups. Well worth it to keep from paying many thousands for a "upgraded" or "fake" graded Winchester Model 21. There is no other source to verify serial numbers for detailed information.

Bill

[Brett Souder]

Check out Pauline Muerrel
http://paulinemuerrle.com/

[Kim I. Manning]

Thanks to both of you. I am assuming that for purposes of possible purchase, I should rule out any guns that don't number through Cody or Ms Muerrle? That would seem to be the only safe route?

BTW, I have always wanted one of these and have thinned out my collection to make financial room for one. I'm 65, though, and don't want to make any mistakes others might have to deal with later. I've already done that myself many times!

[Tom Carter]

Winchester also contracted with outside engravers for Grand Americans. A good friend who is also a world known engraver, Sam Welch, engraved at least one Grand American for Winchester that I know of. I suspect they contracted with outside engraves when they had a backlog or were looking for specific talent.
Another friend used to work in a Winchester contract shop in North Carolina.
Cheers, Tom

You might want to go the Firearms Guild of America website and ask on their forum who has engraved for Winchester.

[John Dallas]

Be careful. I am aware of a person who had (has?) what appeared to be original Cody Museum stationery, and on that basis, he could make anything "Letter". Get the letter yourself directly from the museum.

[Reggie Bishop]

Pauline Muerrel often IDs fake 21s and 12s at shotgunworld.com in the Winchester forum. She can ID fake engraving with just a link to the gun photo. Not sure if this helps but thought I would pass along.

[Bill Anderson]

Thanks to both of you. I am assuming that for purposes of possible purchase, I should rule out any guns that don't number through Cody or Ms Muerrle? That would seem to be the only safe route?

BTW, I have always wanted one of these and have thinned out my collection to make financial room for one. I'm 65, though, and don't want to make any mistakes others might have to deal with later. I've already done that myself many times!

I follow one rule when buying high grade Winchester 21s. No letter directly from Cody, no purchase!

Bill

[Kim I. Manning]

Thanks so much to all for the help!

[Bill Murphy]

I would contact Pauline and ask her opinion about the possibility of "not all Cody letters are legitimate, even when they come direct from Cody".

[Bill Anderson]

To me the Cody letter is one way of justifying paying a certain price for a Winchester 21 and maintining a certain value for an possible sale some day. If the letter is there when you purchase the 21, I would assume it would be there when one day you decide to sell this particular gun. So questioning accuracy further of a letter direct from Cody, whether it is valid or not, has no meaning to me because the buyer would see the same letter upon research before his purchase from me. Also, if you question information from Cody being valid or not, I guess you could question validity from any source for any gun, whether it is Winchester, Parker, Fox, L C Smith and so on. If you are suspicious of your sources of information, it is probably best not to buy anything at all.

Bill

[Bill Murphy]

Some people's knowledge about Model 21s and how they got the way they are goes beyond a Cody letter. Those people should be consulted before spending a lot of money. No one said anything about "not buying anything at all". The records of some companies have been more protected from abuse than have others.

[Bill Anderson]

No one said anything about "not buying anything at all"

Yes. I did.
And I'll stick with Cody versus the the word of so called knowledgeable persons.

Bill

[Bill Murphy]

I was referring to the fact that I said nothing about buying nothing at all. That would be a poorly thought out decision if you are shopping for a Model 21.