Parker restoration marks?

[Jerry Andrews]

This is a restored Parker I bought. Serial number is 124258. Do you think this work was done by Remington at Ilion? The chokes are marked on the barrels like a Remington gun also. I remember someone saying marks were put on the barrels to indicate work. Would this indicate stock work as well as case colors? Thanks much, Jerry

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[Ed Blake]

If Remington did any work on a gun it was marked on the barrel flats with its alpha numeric code, for instance LSS3 is February 1947. I doubt Remington would have buffed out the rib matting on any gun, as yours appears to have been done. I have a damascus GH from 1899 that has had the stock replaced. Under the trigger guard the serial number is stamped along with an "R". I've always wondered if the R was for Remington eventhough there are no repair codes on the watertable.

[Dave Fuller]

I agree, the barrels were probably not done by Remington and date codes would be the first clue if they were. I suppose the cyanide case colors could be Remington but they sure look fresh. Del Grego did cyanide jobs post-Remington. Nice gun, everything looks to have been carefully redone except maybe the rib matting.

[Dave Suponski]

This could be a Delgrego/Remington restoration.The stock has a Remington era butt plate and the fluting on the nose of the comb looks Remington.The barrels have been severely buffed and noticeable by the slightly rolled edges at the muzzle and breach ends. Also the rib looks to have been buffed. All in all a nice gun for shooting. Are there any Remington codes on the barrel flats? How are the stock dimensions?

[Jerry Andrews]

Yes, the rib is an abortion, which is too bad as the gun is really nice otherwise. I'll check the barrels for marks tomorrow and post the dimensions as well. Thanks all, I appreciate it. Once again, if you ever need help on the L.C. Smith guns, please ask . Jerry

[Austin W Hogan]

This gun; 124528, predates the first single barrel trap gun by about 50,000 serial numbers. Several of us have seen the first known SxS with a "large" or "trap" forend which has the note "fore end like trap" in the order book. The first V grades with trap forends and or vent ribs that show in the order books have serials well above 200000; however Parker advertised retrofitting of ejectors, trap forends and vent ribs during the 1920's. This gun has the trap forend showing the proper screw. These parts were available until the very end. I have a box with post mark 15 Mar 1987 that still contains trap forend irons and unfinished ssbps from Remington's parts disposal after sale by DuPont.
I have had some barrels reblued by Del Grego. They did not buff barrels; they were filed and emoried longitudinally, and sent to LeFever or other local shops for blueing. Frames were drawn over a gas stove, polished and re engraved in the Del Grego shop. They were sent to LeFever ( who had the proper straightening jigs) for case hardening until Bob Lefever's retirement. After that, Runge took them to Remington to be re cased after he recut the engraving. Reminton ceased re casing when the cyanide process was no longer grandfathered.
Ribs were not emoried; it appears that this rib was either severly pitted, or may have had a vent rib attached when the btfe was fitted, and the vent rib later removed.
With respect to an accompanying note; I visit Orvis frequently; as of my latest visit in spring of this year, they had only a small gunroom, and no gunsmithing facilities.

Best, Austin

[Ed Blake]

Jerry - Does your gun have the big forend "loop" for the BT?

[Bruce Day]

As an aside, Austin's response raises a significant issue about re color case hardening when he mentions that LeFever had the proper frame straightening jigs. Some shops attempt color case hardening without them and have caused frame warping such that the barrels do not lock properly, there is a gap, etc. That is one of the reasons why experienced Parker collectors have been reluctant to have frames redone. Frame warpage should be one of the questions asked when considering re casing.

[Jerry Andrews]

I've only had L.C. Smith guns recolored in the past and Color Case Company did all of them. Up to date, I think they did 32 for me for my shop. They never warped a single frame, even the dreaded Hunter One Trigger guns still worked but I usually had to fool with them, but then again, I usually have to fool with them anyway. A.E. Lard might have been into opiates when he invented that nightmare! I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Smith nut, but the trigger and ejectors should have stayed home.
Someone asked if my gun had the large loop? I'm not sure what that is, can someone help me with that? Thanks for all the replies and help, tons of really helpful and kind folks on this board. Jerry

[Dave Suponski]

Jerry,I believe Austin is referring to the forend lug. Is it one piece with a radius at the lug or is it the lug with a small piece of rib extending back to the barrel flats?

[Austin W Hogan]

The tip of the fore end has a large screw head showing in the photo, indicating that the proper extended fore end iron or loup was installed at the time the BTFE was fitted. This required heating the barrel asembly, removing the old piece and soldering in the new. It was apparently not a difficult job if the proper jigs were available. There are many early guns around with BTFE and/or ejectors retrofitted. I will post a picture of the part when I have a chance.
The info about Runge is from an article by Remington's last master engraver in the Remington Society newsletter a few years ago.

Best, Austin

[Bill Bates]

Here's a photo of a VH with two Remington service date codes. The letters are the date and 3 indicates received for service. Here is a good link for the codes.

http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_info/remington_date_code.htm

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[lee r moege]

After looking at the markings on the barrel flat in the pictures I see something I have been trying to identify myself. Since this is about Remington codes, I wonder if anyone can identify the o|o looking mark after the A G on the flats. I have an as new Model 32 with this same mark on the block between the barrels where the proof, test, and date codes are stamped. Is this an inspectors mark, and if so does anyone know who it was? The "32" was built in 1936 as near as I can see. Many thanks. Lee.

[Austin W Hogan]

West Valley advertised in Gun List that they had bought Reington's inventory of parts for guns no longer in production. I ordered 8 Parker hammers at $25 each; they were inside hammers and I returned them for credit. I bought a considerable lot of Parker parts, including a striped frame. Some of the parts that remain are shown. Two fore end loups for btfe guns are in the middle; note that they are full length to the frame to spread loads placed on the btfe over more barrel. The latch notch is not yet filed on these.

Best, Austin

[Jack Cronkhite]

I visit Orvis frequently; as of my latest visit in spring of this year, they had only a small gunroom, and no gunsmithing facilities.

Best, Austin

Austin: Orvis now advertises gun smith services on their WEBSITE (http://www.orvis.com/intro.aspx?dir_id=1089&group_id=15477&cat_id=15482&subject=544)
Cheers,
Jack

[Jerry Andrews]

Here are the forend pics & barrel flats etc. Does this shed any more light on the history of this gun? Thanks again all, Jerry

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[Austin W Hogan]

That is interesting Jack; I wonder if the will go back to the days when one could watch his flies being tied?

Best, Austin

[Dave Suponski]

Jerry, The forend lug on the gun is not the correct style for a beavertail equipped gun. There was an extension added to the forend iron to accept the screw from the beavertail. This gun looks more and more as an example of Del Grego's work. The choke stampings on the barrel flat's are not Parker as far as I can see. If they were they would have been stamped closer to the lug.

[Austin W Hogan]

I dunno Dave; that fore end looks a lot like (including the filed step) my live bird gun internally.

best, Austin

[Jerry Andrews]

I've restocked over 300 doubles in my life, I've looked this one over pretty hard. I'd be proud to have done the work on this gun, except the rib of course. The curved buttplate is spot on, as are the colors and barrel blue. It's tight as a drum and all the wood to metal fit is excellent. The person behind the rasp on this one did a pretty darn good job in my opinion. But then again, I'm an L.C. Smith weirdo, so as for Parker standards I really can't speak. Jerry

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks Austin..I will post pictures tomorrow of my two beavertail gun's forend iron.

Jerry,I am just making observation's your's is a great gun..

[Jerry Andrews]

Dave, I appreciate you taking the time to try & help me with this, as well as everyone else that responded. It's funny how these old guns take on such an interesting history to the current owner, and at one time they were simply another gun rolling out of the various factories, regardless of a VH 12 gauge or a VH .410, just another gun! I think we've latched on to these guns for a more important reason than money also. These guns are the showcase/highlight of American workmanship. Made by men and women who had pride in their work, not just another paycheck. It shows. Most of these old guns are fitted so tightly it appears as if the wood was " poured " around the metal. It's what I strive for when I restock or make a fly rod. I hear the word " acceptable " glue lines in the rods. I just don't think a gap filled with glue is acceptable. It's why I still handplane, I can control what happens. Thanks again for ya'll taking the time to look at my gun and help. Most appreciated, Jerry

[Austin W Hogan]

Jerry; I agree with you and Dave that it is a fine piece of work; just trying to determine why the breech end of that barrel was so heavily buffed.

Best, Austin

[Jerry Andrews]

Austin, it had to have been pitted, no other reason would you guess? Jerry

[Dave Suponski]

Jerry,As promised here are a couple of photos showing the beavertail forend iron and the proper forend loop for a beavertail equipped gun.1st photo VHE 16 gauge skeet and second photo DHE vent rib double trap 12 gauge.

[Dean Romig]

Very cool - an extractor skeet gun!

[Dave Suponski]

Actually an extractor trap gun.....:)

[Austin W Hogan]

Jerry, Dave, Dean,et al;

This has been a great discussion. I think it could be a worthwhile research article for Parker Pages. I'll post that more formally.

First; this is a little more than speculation on my part; let's call it reasoned speculation. I am sure that if that gun were delivered to Babe and Lawrence, the full story would be known in minutes. I need to visit them and get up to date on several things.

There are some outstanding features present; the GH like grain in the butt; the large trap fore end with screw, but not with trap fore end loup; the bright cyananide case hardening; and the "Parker" butt plate. I speculate that this gun was reworked by Larry Sr and the former Parker employees perhaps at Remington, or in the early years of the original Del Grego cellar shop.
Remington case hardening is very resistant; I have a 513T that I recieved for my 16th birthday in 1952 that is still bright after many years of gallery shooting. I would speculate the case hardening of this gun was done about then. (I also speculate that Lefever (three miles away in Frankfort, and former Remington shop superintendent) hardened some Ilion Parkers before cessation of the operation, and most of those re cased during reconditioning by Del Grego prior to Bob Lefever's retirement. The Remington collectors newsletter cites Runge bringing Parker frames that he had engraved to Remington for case hardening between that time and the ending of the cyanide case process.)
The GH grain on VH guns is noted prior to close of production; those butts and the "Parker" butt plates may have remained in stock in the 1950's
The trap forend thread in the old style fore end loup is interesting. Did someone note that the new style loup wasn't really necessary? Is that the reason those I bought were left over?
The machine buffing of the barrel is unusual to say the least. Could the gun have rusted in a case and the barrels reblued at a later date?

Best, Austin

[Jerry Andrews]

I would think that's all a very good and fair assesment Austin. I'd guess the barrels would never have been allowed to leave anyone's should with the superb work on the rest of the gun. It might be absolutely killing the sale of this gun on GB. Not sure how to ever make them correct now, as I doubt if anyone has the ability to redo the rib. Jerry

[Dean Romig]

The rib would need to be filed smooth and engraved. I don't know who has the Parker matting machine but it would require removing the rib, matting it, engraving the legend and relaying the rib.... probably more expensive than filing and engraving it.

[Austin W Hogan]

Turnbull may have the roll mark die.

Best, Austin

[Jerry Andrews]

It's really quite a shame as the rest of the gun is done very well. I guess it is what it is right now. Jerry

[Bill Murphy]

Someone claims to be qualified to rematt the Parker pattern. It is either Turnbull or Central New York gunsmiths or Simmons. I just don't recall. I don't know if further restoration of this gun is wise.

[Bruce Day]

Call Simmons.

[Jerry Andrews]

Problem is I'm in the gun at
$1400.00 + now, that job would have to cost at least $500.00 or better, I might be chasing my tail. Still such a shame, it's a pretty gun. Jerry

[Dave Suponski]

Jerry, It sure is...Enjoy the gun and shoot hell out of it.

[Dean Romig]

Enjoy the gun and shoot hell out of it.

The voice of experience.

[Ed Blake]

Here's one. Big loop for a splinter forend. 1915 saftey-less DHE.

[Dave Suponski]

Ed,Could the gun originally have been a beavertail? Or maybe a set of late Remington barrels? What do ya think....?

[Austin W Hogan]

Ed; Dave; The first single barrel trap listed is 173803. I read Ed's 1915 gun as 17157?. I have a safety less live bird VHE 170789 that has a btfe with proper iron and loup.
Was Parker making SxS btfe traps before SBT's? The catalogs of the 1920's offer retrofits of trap fore ends, so any Parker might have one.
This is more and more interesting as a PP research article if we recieve some input.

Best, Austin

[Ed Blake]

Austin, yes the number is 171575. Unfortunately there is little in the records about it other than it spent its early life in Connecticut. It has the later Parker SST also. It was sent back to have its "extension" replaced, which Mark and I understood to mean the dollshead extension. It also had to have been sent back at some point to have the trigger and loop put on, but that book is missing. Stock book is missing too.

Dave - Anything is possible, but there are no Remington codes on this gun. She's stocked rather high: 1 3/8" DAC and 1 7/8" DAH.

[Dave Suponski]

Sure sound's to me like a trap configured gun. Hey wait a minute.....Parker's that spent their whole life in Connecticut are supposed to stay in Connecticut....:rolleyes: