E.M.Reilly & Company London

[Jack Cronkhite]

http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=778

Really should stay away from small town gun shows. When you see something you don't know but it looks exquisite and you eventually win a haggle you bring it home and then do the research. I had never seen a pin fire gun but now understand the system. There is a stamp on the gun of 1039. I believe that is October 1839 but ... It is in 12 gauge and sports lovely pattern welded barrels. I found some Reilly history on Double Gun forum and continue the search for more. Only four of the cartridges are replacements and the rest appear to be factory originals but .... Anyway some pics to enjoy in my albums. Cheers Jack I will insert link later as I'm trying to do my first post using a phone and im nervous about having to redo the message
Okay link up top. Cant seem to control a phone with a mind of its own

[Rick Losey]

Oct 1839 is too early for a pin fire

Some date details here. Based on the label I'd guess 1860's

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=270014


Oh and -Sweet gun

[John Campbell]

For the full story of E. M. Reilly, get a copy of my feature story in the Summer 2015 edition of Double Gun Journal.

You will find Reilly was a competitor to Jas. Purdey...

[charlie cleveland]

hoy many barrels are with this gun jack...very nice...i know a fellow who learned how to reload these old pinfire shells...charlie

[Jack Cronkhite]

It has two barrels mounted sxs and held together with a top and bottom rib. :) But, there is only one set of barrels and they are beautiful.

[Gene Williams]

Sirs, I believe the attached line below compiled by me on Doublegunshop has the most complete information on Reilly every compiled. It includes SN's of about 300 extant Reilly's which include "marker" SN's enabling most Reilly's to be dated fairly precisely.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&nt=9&page=1

SN 1039 would have been one of the first SN's used by J.C. Reilly (the father) upon their move from Holborn Bars to 316 High Holborn in August 1835. I don't believe pinfires were around at that time. Please check the serial number again. In addition, would appreciate the name and address which appears on the rib which can help date this gun. The above doublegunshop line continues to compile a record of every Reilly which can be found. If you'd like to post pictures and information on your gun, it would be appreciated.

And Kensal I would very much like to read your article and compare it to the research mentioned above.

[Gene Williams]

I just got access to the photos. It looks like the serial number is 15293 (very unclear-behind the trigger guard). If so this gun can be dated precisely. EM Reilly opened Rue Scribe in Paris in Feb 1868. The first SN I've found with "Rue Scribe" on the rib is 15270. He was numbering about 50 guns a month. 15293 would therefore have been numbered in Feb, March 1868. From other examples it may or may not have Rue Scribe on the Rib and may or may not have rebounding hammers.

The first SN with EM Reilly on the gun (vice JC or just plain Reilly) is (reportedly - i.e. no photos - so without evidence this number is suspect) 10621. This would have been late 1857, early 1858. The first advertisement for Reilly in London periodicals which used "EM Reilly" vice "Reilly" is in and 1858 publication. The first SN I've actually confirmed via photos with EM Reilly on the gun is 11247, an Enfield - Reilly did not number guns he did not build.

[John Campbell]

Mr. Williams:
A chronology of Reilly serial numbers is a laudable endeavour. But certain personal ethics prevent me from visiting the forum you mention very often.

But as I've stated above, you may obtain a copy of the Summer 2015 DGJ from the publishers and find a wealth of Reilly information. Much of it sourced from Reilly family descendants.

[CraigThompson]

We have an E.M. Reilley 450 BPE hammer double with a Jones underlever for sale at the shop .

[Gene Williams]

Kensal, sorry about the problem with DGS. I don't know how these things arise - the internet can be anti-intellectual - but they sure get in the way of scholarship and just plain polite personal relationships. I'll try to find a copy of the DBJ 2015 issue I can buy and I really look forward to reading it and your scholarship - I wish I had known about this when I start my own quest. I searched for info on EM's sister and on what happened to his two sons without success. The serial number chronology though I think is worth a look

[Gene Williams]

We have an E.M. Reilley 450 BPE hammer double with a Jones underlever for sale at the shop .

Sir, in the chronology of Reilly SN's above there are four or five 450 BPE's numbered by Reilly. These range from 17214 - the first Reilly Martini Henry I can find (and the SN might not be his) and include 21304, 25273, 27847, 30846, 34221.. There are several Martini 450's not numbered by Reilly but sold by him. With a Jones under lever you'd suspect the SN would be perhaps the 21304?-or in that neighborhood. It would be interesting to know the SN and the address on the rib. Many Thanks. Every Reilly which turns up adds to knowledge.

[Gene Williams]

We have an E.M. Reilley 450 BPE hammer double with a Jones underlever for sale at the shop .

There are 6-7 450 BPE's in the chronology mentioned above. If yours is a double gun (and not a Martini Henry), with a Jones under lever...it'll likely be around 21,000..SN...i.e. about 1880-81. Would be interested in the SN and rib address for historical reasons. Many thanks. (sorry double post...I'm in the middle of no-where at Z+1 and dealing with a very balky internet.)

[CraigThompson]

Sir, in the chronology of Reilly SN's above there are four or five 450 BPE's numbered by Reilly. These range from 17214 - the first Reilly Martini Henry I can find (and the SN might not be his) and include 21304, 25273, 27847, 30846, 34221.. There are several Martini 450's not numbered by Reilly but sold by him. With a Jones under lever you'd suspect the SN would be perhaps the 21304?-or in that neighborhood. It would be interesting to know the SN and the address on the rib. Many Thanks. Every Reilly which turns up adds to knowledge.

#21,361 , GB # 731041963 , if I think about it tomorrow I'll tell you what the rib inscription is and post a picture on the auction . I'd like to have the gun myself I just think $7,800 is a touch high . But of course I'm most likely wrong .

[John Campbell]

All things are relative. Contact ANY London maker and see how far $7,800 USD will get you toward any new .450 BPE double.

[Gene Williams]

#21,361 , GB # 731041963 , if I think about it tomorrow I'll tell you what the rib inscription is and post a picture on the auction . I'd like to have the gun myself I just think $7,800 is a touch high . But of course I'm most likely wrong .

21,361 may have been numbered in Fall 1877. It should have 502 or 315 New Oxford street + the Rue Scribe, Paris address on the rib. (He sometimes left off the Paris address - assume this was to satisfy some Francophobe customer and there were a lot of them at the time in UK).

26584 is the last SN I've found with Rue Scribe on the Rib. He closed Rue Scribe in Paris in summer 1886. At that time he was numbering about 50 guns a month. This 450 BPE is 5,223 numbers before 26584 divided by 50 = 104 months before July 1886, 8 years, 8 months = Autumn 1877. (you can go the other way too starting with the first SN with Rue Sribe on a rib 15270 -from Feb 1868 - and counting forward). (And there are some checks which can be applied - the first numbered Martini Henry - knowing when the Martini Henry was adopted for British service).

A check could be made of the patents on the gun to confirm this though it won't be definitive: The gun may have these:
1872 - Patent: Anson's fore-end fastener patent no. 3791
1874 - Patent: Needham patented a hammerless, barrel-cocking gun which was also the first ejector in 1874.
1875 - Patent: W.M. Scott's patent 3223
1875 - Patent: Anson & Deely patent; the first hammerless gun with top lever.

It should not have these:
1878 - Patent: Mills 3rd bite patent no 4980
1878 - Patent: Patent Number 761 was recorded by William Middleditch Scott and Thomas Baker

Also we've found that Reilly stockpiled barrels at least in the 1890's. Barrels were put onto guns which were proofed six years prior to the SN.

Terry Buffum sold a lot of Reilly's recently at least one was a 450 BPE as I recall. A check of Amoskeog and his auctions should confirm this.

[Gene Williams]

Kensal, I've order the DBJ from summer 2015 and can't wait to read it. I'm having it delivered to my home but won't be back there till mid-Jan. My son also writes and I dabble as well (mostly Vietnam history stuff) and authors and researchers should be paid for their work Like I said I wish I'd known about it when I started my own research in December 2015.

[CraigThompson]

21,361 may have been numbered in Fall 1877. It should have 502 or 315 New Oxford street + the Rue Scribe, Paris address on the rib. (He sometimes left off the Paris address - assume this was to satisfy some Francophobe customer and there were a lot of them at the time in UK).

26584 is the last SN I've found with Rue Scribe on the Rib. He closed Rue Scribe in Paris in summer 1886. At that time he was numbering about 50 guns a month. This 450 BPE is 5,223 numbers before 26584 divided by 50 = 104 months before July 1886, 8 years, 8 months = Autumn 1877. (you can go the other way too starting with the first SN with Rue Sribe on a rib 15270 -from Feb 1868 - and counting forward). (And there are some checks which can be applied - the first numbered Martini Henry - knowing when the Martini Henry was adopted for British service).

A check could be made of the patents on the gun to confirm this though it won't be definitive: The gun may have these:
1872 - Patent: Anson's fore-end fastener patent no. 3791
1874 - Patent: Needham patented a hammerless, barrel-cocking gun which was also the first ejector in 1874.
1875 - Patent: W.M. Scott's patent 3223
1875 - Patent: Anson & Deely patent; the first hammerless gun with top lever.

It should not have these:
1878 - Patent: Mills 3rd bite patent no 4980
1878 - Patent: Patent Number 761 was recorded by William Middleditch Scott and Thomas Baker

Also we've found that Reilly stockpiled barrels at least in the 1890's. Barrels were put onto guns which were proofed six years prior to the SN.

Terry Buffum sold a lot of Reilly's recently at least one was a 450 BPE as I recall. A check of Amoskeog and his auctions should confirm this.

The left barrel is inscribed "E.M. Reilley and Co Oxford Street London" and the right barrel is inscribed "& Rue Scribe Paris 450 Bore Express" . I didn't bother to take a picture and add it to the auction as I don't think the camera will make it legible in a picture .

[Gene Williams]

From my database...still looking.

17314 - (1872-3?) (First Reilly Martini - has to be after 1871) !!!!!!!! First Reilly Martini !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Name: E.M Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London (no Paris address)
Descriptions: .577 (.450) Martini-Henry action
Comment: This is the first Reilly Martini I can find. Has to be after the 1870 trials. Martini’s were made in various calibers by Reilly for 30 years. This is the only one I’ve found so far with a Reilly serial number. In the Victorian era it was common practice for Officer’s & Other Ranks of Volunteer & Militia Units to privately purchase their own weapons to supplement their limited supply of issued weapons. Privately purchased Martini Henry rifles & carbines were manufactured by quality gunsmiths using genuine Enfield manufactured parts.
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/8720/E-M-Reilly-Martini#.VrgJC3hQoqY

Here are other Reilly Martini’s, with no identified SN’s.

— See this Martini, E.M. Reilly & Co, New Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris, .450, black powder, Elay 3 1/4 express.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=270014&start=20

— and this .577/.450 Reilly Martini, E M REILLY & CO, OXFORD ST, LONDON; black powder. (no Paris address)
https://www.gunsamerica.com/999425841/Martini-E-M-Reilly-577-45.htm


xxxxx - (1875-1890?) (Reilly Martini) (It’s possible Reilly quit putting Reilly SN’s on Martini’s shortly after making 17414)
Name: E.M. Reilly & Co, New Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris
Description: Martini action serial 10889. Danish gun. .450 cal bore (classic Martini-Henry), Black powder, Ely 3 1/4 Express.
Comment:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=270014&start=20

18595
E.M. REILLY OF LONDON,.450 (3 ¼ in. black powder express) rotary-underlever double-barreled hammer rifle. 26" Damascus barrels. Name engrave on left receiver "A.Geo A. Rush" with a coat of arms. Possible the rifle of Alfred George Anderson Rush borh 1851, Farthinghoe Rush family.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/double-rifles-antique/e-m-reilly-450-bpe.cfm?gun_id=100885109

21304 -
Name: E.M.Reilly & Co (no mention/photo of complete address by auctioneer)
Descriptions: .450/.500 double rifle
Comment: Come on pros..give us the data.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/980748841/E-M-Reilly-Co-450-500-Double-Rifle.htm

21761
Name: E.M REILLY & Co., NEW OXFORD STREET, LONDON & RUE SCRIBE, PARIS
Description: E M Reilly double rifle for me. It is a hammer gun
.....Comment: Purdey under bolts and dual side bolts. chambered for 500 BPE. HWK’s gun from this board (Doublegunshop); he bought several of Terry Buffum’s guns.

25273 -
Name: E.M. REILLY & CO., 502, NEW OXFORD ST., LONDON
Descriptions: .450 (3 ¼ in. black powder express) rotary-underlever double-barreled hammer rifle. 28 in. (71 cm.) black powder only blued barrels; double triggers, non automatic safety and extractors. Included is a beavertail forend
Comment: 502, no Paris.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/arms-...86-details.aspx

25572
Name: E.M. Reilly, 16 New Oxford Street, London and Paris
Description: E.M. Reilly .450 BPE; Good to find condition. Three proof marks - London provisional proof since 1856; Crown over interconnect GP; London definitive black power proof; and the crown over V since 1670 London view mark. Purchased in Spain by a relative in 1950’s. 10 lbs, 28” barrel, .450 caliber; gold inlay - E.M Reilly, London and Paris, “To their majesties the kings of Spain and Portugal” on top of the barrel; Double hammer. Three sights. COC 9 under the barrel; SN 25,572. Fancy scroll work.
.....Comment: Hammer gun, underlever. SN would place it about 1884
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/what-is-it-and-when-was-it-made.671624/

27847 -
Name: Not mentioned
Descriptions: 450 bore express. under-lever ejection, rebounding hammers.
Comment:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=270014

30846 -
Name: E.M Reilly - rest not mentioned in the ad.
Descriptions: 450 BPE, 28” steel barrels, double gun, double triggers.
Comment: “modern” group side plates
http://www.amoskeagauction.com/108/385.h...paign=108Eblast

34221
Name: E.M. Reilly & Co, 16 New Oxford Street, London. (E.M. Reilly & Co, 315 Oxford Street, London (case). (re the case label, this is16 years after 315 Oxford street was renumbered; the label may be a reproduction).
Descriptions: 16 bore x 450 No. 2 Musket, 29 3/4" barrels with very good bores. This is an interesting set of guns which feature seven leaf express sights and are on the plainer side, being working guns. The actions and back action locks show only light border engraving. The barrels are each engraved with the 16 New Oxford Street address. The guns feature rebounding hammers and full pistolgrip walnut stocks.
Comment: Terry Buffum collection ; one of a pair, see below.
http://www.lot-art.com/auction-lots/Case...y-02.4-amoskeag

[Gene Williams]

And back to the original post. Would like to see Tarnation post the Reilly SN and the address on the rib of his pinfire. History waits.

[Gene Williams]

Well, I've bought DGJ Summer 2015 and had it sent to the house. A friend photographed the article (and since Ive bought it I don't feel like I'm stealing anything). There are three blatant errors in the first three paragraphs, Sorry. The neat stuff is the interviews and photographs...the errors are in history, John..let's talk because this DGJ article is not right.

[John Campbell]

Mr. Williams:
First, you have reproduced a copyright property without permission.

Secondly, you reaffirm my beliefs about gentlemanly decorum. If you have any issues with my material - which has been reviewed and authenticated by the Reilly family - then a PM on this board is the appropriate channel for such discussion.

[Gene Williams]

John, you are right. I should not have challenged you in this forum. For this I apologize. But I read an article I bought and it refers to a subject on which I've devoted a great deal of time and personal interest. And if you are wrong on your facts in your article then you might be wrong on your conclusions.

You have published your article for the public...you should be open to a peer review. I would be willing to walk through with you off line re the specific questions I have about your article. Or, better yet since you have accused me of malfeasance (of reading your article), we can do it here in public. After all that's what book reviews are all about. In the end Reilly historians should welcome each other. I don't feel welcomed. Nor do I support everything you've written. (and a simple look at Reilly addresses on gun ribs will demonstrate what I'm talking about)

Let me know John...because I'll print here every error in your article. There's too much disinformation on the internet and your tone is not pleasant.

[Gene Williams]

And, Sir, anyone who would put this out as a business model from the beginning of his gun making career could hardly be hoping to compete with Prudey...

"Early in the present century, Messrs. Reily, gun makers, were established near Chancery Lane, in Holborn, where they enjoyed the patronage of members of the legal profession, besides an extensive country (gentry) connection Their premises were extensive, and afforded every facility for carrying on a large business. They adhered to the principle, that “It is not sufficient that an article be cheap; it must also bear the test of excellence.” (quotes from Wyman’s Commercial Encyclopedia) (1888).

[Eric Eis]

Mr. Williams, please take this discussion off line, one this is the "Parker Board" not the Double Gun Board, plus if you have a major disagreement with someone that too should be done by pm we do not want to hear the back and forth disagreements you may have with John.

[Gene Williams]

Sir, thank you for your suggestion. I will follow your instruction. However, I'd like to make a few points in my defense:
1) This specific board is for "General Discussions about other Fine Doubles." It is not about Parkers.
2) John published a widely disseminated article in the most prestigious journal of double guns in America. He did some pioneering research. However, he was wrong on many of his facts and his underlying premis is suspect..and if these are allowed to go unchallenged they will morph into reality.
3) His work is public. My problem is not personal. It is professional.

If you want to suppress the interchange of ideas and the validation of assertions - that is fine. But it does you no honor...neither intellectually nor ethically. John should be able to defend his article. I should be able to challenge that article and his defense. The scientific method demands this and nothing more.

[Gene Williams]

Oh, and by the way..how about that original SN and the name on the rib...would love to see it.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Oh, and by the way..how about that original SN and the name on the rib...would love to see it.

Ok here are some pics of trigger bow tang showing SN as well as all markings on the barrels. Hope this adds to the knowledge base. Merry Christmas, Jack

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=778&pictureid=9773

[Jack Cronkhite]

Sirs, I believe the attached line below compiled by me on Doublegunshop has the most complete information on Reilly every compiled. It includes SN's of about 300 extant Reilly's which include "marker" SN's enabling most Reilly's to be dated fairly precisely.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&nt=9&page=1



Interesting to find this gun in that link. 15129 was purchased at auction 2015 August 29. I think it was then purchased by the guy who had it at the small town gun show. Now I purchased it. It would be interesting to know who consigned it to auction. Somewhere along the way somebody held on to it for many years. There are a few light external pits just under the forend. Other than that, the gun is near pristine. Quite happy to be the custodian for a while. Poor wife or kids will have to deal with all this when I'm gone. Not much seems to arrive here that doesn't stay. Some even get to shoot pheasants from time to time. I toy with the idea to use this one but then I also know how easy it is to blemish the wood or metal in the field. I don't think this gun really saw much use in its history. Cheers, Jack

[Gene Williams]

I'll post a portion of the SN dating line re 15129 from DGS. Whole shebang can be read there,,,,check at the end of page 9 for the most clear explanation of dates: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=9


1862 - Feb 1868: 13300 - 15250 London exhibition. From SN 13333 firmly identified as 1862 to 15270 firmly identified as Feb 1868, he numbered almost 2,000 guns. About 340/year. 27/month.

13333 - E.M. Reilly & Co. 502 New Oxford St., London; .577 cal. Rifle; percussion breech loader, Green Bros patent 1862 firm date.
13590 - E.M Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street, London. 10 bore; Rifle SxS; Percussion hammer gun muzzle loader.
13599 - E.M. Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London. 12 bore; Rifle SxS; 2 groove Percussion double express Hammer gun, muzzle loader.
14115 - E.M. Reilly (nothing further - no photos, etc). Shotgun SxS; Center break, Jones under leaver, hammer gun.
14580 - E.M. Reilly & Co. London. 12 ga. Shotgun SxS; Percussion hammergun, Muzzle loader.

1866:: 14540?-14900? 1866 British army formally adopted the .577 Snider Enfield as a stop-gap breech loading rifle. Reilly built Sniders and converted some Muzzle-loading Enfields to the Snider action. Any Reilly Snider should be 1866 or later. However, unless he built them to measure, he did not seem to number them.
1867: 14900?-15240? Huge Reilly success at Paris exhibition that summer; Gold medals appear on labels;

14985 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London. 16 ga. Shotgun SxS; Sidelock, underlever hammer gun, (Buffum).
15129 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 Oxford St. London. 12 bore. Shotgun SxS; pinfire, hammer gun, muzzle loader.
15143 - E.M. Reilly & Co, 502 Oxford St. London, 12ga. Shotgun SxS; underlever, hammergun.

Feb 1868 - Aug 1886: 15270-27340? In Feb 1868 he opened Rue Scribe, Paris. Many of his guns subsequently had the Paris address. 15270 is the first gun with Rue Scribe. He closed it in Late 1886. 27340 is the last gun with Rue Scribe. Note: Internet "urban legend" has him closing Rue Scribe in 1872 including one author of an article in DGJ. A glance at ads and gun ribs below show this is just poor scholarship. [color:#3366FF]18.5 years. 222 mos. 12,100 guns. = about 55/mo. 660/yr. (this is a guess estimate but a good one).


There are some guns early on in the 1868-86 series that perhaps should be later in the date series - I'm thinking of the 1871 Martini Henry which seems a bit early for him to have produced and the 1873 gun that has a Needham’s Patent 18547 (which may or may not be C1874). This would indicate a production of fewer guns early on and more later.

This is a long stretch of time; The only way to narrow down the year dates is to check patents on the guns. If people look inside their Reilly's which have SN's during this period, would appreciate info on these patents - use of which (not non-use) could alter the above chronology - And I'm already thinking of altering the chronology a bit to allow for fewer guns produced early in the period and more at the end):
1872 - Patent: Anson's fore-end fastener patent no. 3791
1874 - Patent: Needham patented a hammerless, barrel-cocking gun which was also the first ejector in 1874.
1875 - Patent: W.M. Scott's patent 3223
1875 - Patent: Anson & Deely patent; the first hammerless gun with top lever.
1878 - Patent: Mills 3rd bite patent no 4980
1878 - Patent: Patent Number 761 was recorded by William Middleditch Scott and Thomas Baker

Feb 1868-Jan 1869: 15250-15800

15270 - E.M. Reilly and Company Oxford Street London & Rue Scribe Paris. .577. Rifle SxS; Underlever. BPE. Non-rebounding hammers.
15283 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London. 12ga. Shotgun SxS; Jones under lever. Buffum.
15346 - E.M. Reilly (no further info). 12ga. Shotgun SxS; Under lever, hammer gun.
15531 - “Reilly & Co. (no address mentioned). .50cal. Rifle Single barrel. Enfield type. Hammer gun. Muzzle loader. Buffum .
15625 - E.M. Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London, 2 Rue Scribe Paris. 4bore. Shotgun SxS. Underlever. Orig pinfire conv-to centerfire.

1869: 15800-16460

15857 - E.M. Reilly, 502 Oxford Street, London. 12ga. Shotgun SxS. Centerbreak, underlever. Non-rebound hammers.
15961 - E.M. Reilly (no further descriptions). 12bore. Rifle SxS; Centerbreak, Underlever Hammergun.
16341 - E.M. Reilly (No further descriptions). .577cal. Rifle, Snider SxS. Jones underlever; hammer gun(Weiland). First rebounding hammers (1867 patent)