20 gauge 32" barrels DHE

[Ken Descovich]

Today at the California Side by Side club shoot a friend of mine brought a 20 gauge DHE Parker with 32" inch barrels and chambered for 3" cartridges also no safety was ever installed to show and tell, I informed him that I thought he had quite a rare gun. The serial number of this gun is 206769 it also has a straight stock, recoil pad and the medallion on the stock is engraved with the initials PEP. I noticed that the identification and serialization book does not have information on this serial number. I am hoping someone reading this may be able to shed more light on this gun, it is in about 90% original condition.
Thank you in advance,
Ken Descovich

[Steve Huffman]

Sounds like your friend has a very nice gun !

[Dave Noreen]

Parker Bros. seem to have made more 32-inch 20-gauges then other makers. Possibly DuBray taking orders for guns for California duck club members pushed this. The record tabulations in The Parker Story show 221 VH-/VHE-Grades, six PH-/PHE-Grades, 43 GH-/GHE-Grade, 171 DH-/DHE-Grades, 13 CH-/CHE-Grades, 21 BH-/BHE-Grades (one of these was Clark Gable's), one AH-/AHE-Grade, six AAH-/AAHE-Grades and four A1-Specials. On top of these, there are guns like my GH-Grade that started life as a 2-frame 12-gauge but later went back to Meriden for a set of 32-inch, 3-inch chambered, 20-gauge barrels. One year at The Vintage Cup at Orvis Sandanona, when Kevin McCormack and I were doing the PGCA booth, we had a display that included 0-, 1-, and 2-frame 32-inch 20-gauges.

I have searched the A.H. Fox production records and only found 47 regular frame graded 20-gauges with 32-inch barrels, and that 26 of the sixty some HE-Grade Super-Fox 20-gauges have 32-inch barrels.

Back about 2003 or 4 when I first started looking for a Fox 32-inch 20-gauge, at the Las Vegas Antique & Sporting Arms Show I found six Parker Bros. 32-inch 20-gauges, a fully loaded Ithaca NID 32-inch 20-gauge and a 32-inch 20-gauge Crown Grade L.C. Smith, but no Ansley H. Fox long 20-gauges.

Keep in mind that back in the first twenty-two years of the 20th Century the 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch 20-gauge shells only carried a quarter dram heavier charge of powder then could be had in the "standard" 2 1/2 inch shell and pushed the same 7/8 ounce of shot. Their perceived advantage was more/better wadding.

[Dave Sizemore]

As always, extremely interesting information! Thanks .

[Ken Descovich]

I agree Mr Noreen is a wealth of knowledge. This shotgun does not have a safety yet live pigeon shooting must have been a memory or very limited when this shotgun was built. I wonder if there would have been other reasons for the lack of a safety? I did take a few pictures but was un able to add to this thread, I did add them to my photo album though. Thank you for all the comments.

[Bill Murphy]

Although Dave's information about heavy loading of 20 gauges is largely correct, I once owned a #2 frame 32" 20 gauge that was ordered "to shoot one ounce, three dram loads". The serial number of that gun is 153,333 and it is out there somewhere. It weighs almost exactly eight pounds.

[Dean Romig]

A lot of Parkers that were never intended to be used as "live bird" guns were ordered without a safety. Guns that were used as upland guns, of all gauges from 10 or 12 gauge and down that were only closed to battery when walking in over the dogs are examples. Some were waterfowl guns intended to be shot from a blind or duck boat at passing or decoying fowl.
Yes, these are live birds but not the birds that "live birds" that the term indicates. Those "live birds" are the ones that were used in the original form of 'trap' shooting. Even some shooters of inanimate objects (trap shooting after live bird shooting was too expensive or controversial) ordered guns without a safety.





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[Daryl Corona]

Dean,
I have a gun ordered by W.R.Crosby who as you may know was a renowned professional shooter back in the day. It's a 20 VH with 30" barrels and no safety. Interesting note at the end of the research letter states " gun compliments of Parker Brothers".

[Dave Noreen]

I checked the serial number on the Research Letter and the PGCA has no information for a letter.

Bill is right on. Here is a box from 1931--

56076

I have or have access to all the Remington ammo catalogs through that era and nothing heavier then the 2 3/4 dram equiv. pushing one ounce of shot was offered in20-gauge, but I guess if someone ordered enough of them Remington would load them!?!

Serial number 153333 would be a 1910 gun, well before the above box, when loads like these were the factory offerings in 3-inch 20-gauge --

56077

56078

[charlie cleveland]

really enjoy the pictures of these old shells...charlie

[Daniel G Rainey]

No safety to me means live pigeon gun, but Nash Buckingham's super Fox that was made famous in the duck blind and Aldo Leopold Fox he hunted with were both ordered with out safety's.

[Robert Brooks]

I had a 20 gauge CE 32 inch Fox with factory three inch chambers that I sold several years ago and I have an LC Smith field grade 32 inch 20 gauge with short chambers that I bought from California. Bobby

[Robert Brooks]

I had a Fox CE 20 with 32 inch bbls with factory three in chambers that I sold several years ago and have a field grade LC Smith 20 ga ejector with 32 inch short chambered barrels. Bobby

[Robert Brooks]

Sorry about double post delete one if you wish. Bobby

[Bruce Day]

1926 DHE O frame 20 ga. 32". Narrow tapered rib.

[Kevin McCormack]

Too many years ago now to remember exactly, I bought a #1 frame 20 ga. DHE straight grip SKBP / SFE with 32" barrels with no safety in very well worn condition from Butterfield's Auction in San Francisco. I was able to preview the gun beforehand live while on a business trip there, and the first thing I did when I got home was to order a PGCA letter.

Most unfortunately for me and subsequent owner(s), the c. SN 153XXX was in one of the 'missing' Order/Stock books. Try as I might to establish the gun as one of the bona fide "California Duck Club Guns", literally years of research turned up nothing. The gun had 3 inch chambers, very tight chokes, and a noticeable bulge just forward of the right chamber.

I have "willed" in my mind that none other than one of my most prominent ducking idols, Edwin L. Hedderly, bulged that chamber with one of his hot handloads, while searching for that elusive "utmost possibility" (one of his favorite quotes). I subsequently sold the gun to a most deserving PGCA member of like ilk. Its path through the universe since then is another compelling and unusual story.

[Daryl Corona]

I'm the current caretaker of 235xxx, 32", straight grip 20, splinter, ssbp, with 3" chambers and a flat rib. Mine has a safety.:crying:

[Rich Anderson]

I have come to enjoy 32 inch tubes and currently have 5 four of which are Parkers and a lone CE Fox. two are 12's, two 16's and a 20.

I'm no trap shooter by any stretch of the imagination but yesterday there was a 150 bird shoot divided up equally between trap, skeet and sporting clays. The last time I shot trap I had a score of 8 so the trap segment wasn't very promising. I used a DH two frame live bird gun with .045 of choke in each barrel and shot 44/50. This is a straight grip, SPF gun and those long tubes moved right along no stopping the swing.

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Bruce,
How common are those narrow ribs on 20 gauge guns? I've only had one, which I still have, and that has a barrel length of 28 inches. The rib measures 0.21 inches at the muzzle. I would guess that since your barrel is 32 inches the rib would be even narrower. Have you measured it?

[Bruce Day]

It's about 1/4 ". I've seen narrow ribs and standard wider ribs on gauges 12 through 20. I don't have a 28 or a 410, so I wouldn't know. I have 16's with and without. I don't think it makes any difference in target alignment but the narrow rib looks nice .

By the way, as an upland game bird hunter, the 32" barrels are too unwieldy for me and swing too slow. I've shot Kansas pheasant with it, once, then back to the 28" 16. It's nice for trap though.

[Dean Romig]

The more finely tapered ribs are far less common. My guess would be fewer than 10% even of the smaller gauges have the narrow rib.





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[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Just for the sake of comparison, my 3 other 20's have rib measurements at the muzzle of 0.32, 0.32, 0.34, and all of them have 28 inch barrels.

[Kevin McCormack]

[QUOTE=Kevin McCormack;223430]Too many years ago now to remember exactly, I bought a #1 frame 20 ga. DHE straight grip SKBP / SFE with 32" barrels with no safety in very well worn condition from Butterfield's Auction in San Francisco. I was able to preview the gun beforehand live while on a business trip there, and the first thing I did when I got home was to order a PGCA letter.

Correction - this gun was not a straight grip but in fact a capped pistol grip. I confused it with another similar gun in the 153XXX SN range.

[edgarspencer]

GT Herman was telling me this morning that there was a famous duck club in Illinois. All of the guns ordered for them were D grade, 32" 20 gauge, With NO safety, and that the Widgeon Duck Club guns had safeties, and on #1 frames. Seven were DHEs and there was a single BHE

[Bill Holcombe]

Maybe I have missed it on here, but never quite understood the duck club fascination with 20s.

Course I have never understood shooting anything smaller than a 12 anyway.

[Dean Romig]

I just like a lighter gun with a little less clobber on the back end.






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[Dave Noreen]

Edwin L. Hedderly was the editor of Western Field magazine, published in California. He wrote extensively about his smallbore, long barrel, Parkers. He got 32-inch barrel DHE-Grades in 20- and 28-gauge in 1911, then upgraded to 32-inch barrel A1-Specials in 16- and 20-gauge in 1912, paid for by advertising in the magazine. He ordered his guns with No Safety. His 16-gauge was pictured in Baer's books and was on the cover of the September 1966, Guns & Ammo --

56100

One of his A1 Specials from a period Western Field --

56101

Later he was on the California Game Commission, which may well have continued his influence on the movers and shakers in the clubs.

[Dean Romig]

My but grip on that A1-S on the cover of G&A is well worn! I'm sure Hedderly gave it a lot of use.





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[edgarspencer]

....and not a hint of bluing wear on the barrels. Makes ya wonder if he didn't do some stock alteration on his own.

[Dean Romig]

My guess is reblued barrels.





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[Dave Noreen]

By the time it was pictured in Baer's 1974 book, the wood was refinished, the checkering pointed up, and the receiver, trigger guard, etc. case colored.

[Rich Anderson]

I have a BHE 32 inch 20 with 3 inch chambers, straight grip, SPF, with a safety and a Silvers pad. This was ordered by a gentleman from San Francisco and it's all documented in the PGCA letter. What strikes me as a bit strange is it's an O frame. If you were going to use a 3 inch 20 to hunt waterfowl with why the lighter frame?

[Kevin McCormack]

It is problematic whether Hedderly ever had anything at all done to these (his) guns over time so car as stock alterations, rebluing or re case-coloring goes. His writings, which I have researched exhaustively, seldom mention at all having a gun refinished let alone repaired. At best, he mentions on occasion having a set of barrels honed or polished out or the forcing cones relieved to improve patterns, a subject on which he became a fanatic.

The guns I have been able to verify via written record ordered either for himself or his duck club and trapshooting buddies were delivered spot on so far as chokes, chambers, frame sizes, barrel lengths and options (e.g., Monte Carlo stock, cheek piece, rib configurations, etc.

Hedderly was, as they liked to say in Kansas when I lived there, "a long drink of water" - he was a tall (6 foot 6 inch) gaunt-framed man with a long neck and a chiseled face, most worthy of the anatomical term "lantern jawed." He ordered his stocks at 15 1/2 and on at least one occasion 15 3/4 LOP. His utopic duck gun was envisioned, ordered, built, and when delivered, a 32' barreled DHE 28 gauge, straight grip, SKBP with no safety. After he shot his first couple of limits with it, he dubbed it "The Mosquito Gun."

He ran through a number of American makers with his design criteria for a smallbore duck gun that "could", and eventually settled on Parker Bros.
(There is no doubt in my mind that chumming up the good Col. DuBray in custom ordering the first couple of guns for use on the marsh greased the skids, so to speak, along with his (Hedderly's) gushes about how accommodating Parker was in adhering to order specs and quality of the final delivered item having met his wishes).

He became a hard charger proponent of small gauge guns for duck shooting chiefly for 3 reasons: (1) during the heyday of the CA duck clubs (c. 1909-1919), killing ducks with a 12 gauge had been reduced to a routine, mundane, and boring pastime (there were plenty of ducks and plenty of duck clubs; something new was needed; (2) ammunition was unbelievably cheap and, for that matter, the price of ordering out a custom-spec smallbore gun from Parker Bros., LC Smith, Lefever, Fox, Ithaca, whomever was proportionally cheap as well, given the near non-existent market for smallbore guns, and (3) a smallbore long-barreled duck gun that delivered the goods on the marsh quickly became a trendy vanity item amongst the ricefield glitterati.

Despite the hype maintained at a near-fever pitch by Hedderly from about 1912 to 1916, relatively very few smallbore long-barreled Parker guns were ordered and built specifically for duck or trap shooting by Parker Bros; the last time I took a really accurate count combing through his references in Western Field magazine of these types of guns (excluding the well-known Widgeon Club duck guns), the total was less than a dozen individual guns.

At Hedderly's own rendition, the factors that killed the smallbore duck gun revolution during this era were the extreme scarcity of smallbore ammunition on the West coast in any semblance of an array to select cartridges based on use (e.g., duck, upland, or clay target loads), and the near total absence of quality reloading components in any volume selection to enable economical shooting of the little guns.

[Dean Romig]

A well done synopsis Kevin.





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[Bill Murphy]

"Whitworth never numbered their tubes." Wilbur Parker. ??

[Dean Romig]

Well somebody sure did, and sources other than Wilbur Parker have verified that Whitworth stamped and documented their tubes with serial numbers.





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[Chris Travinski]

There is a certain mystique abut these Duck Club guns, but they are also appealing for the sum of the features we all love. Long barrels, straight stocks, I personally like safety delete guns etc.

Julia's had one at Addieville on display before an auction a few years back. I can say it was as superbly made as any other Parker I've ever handled and the balance was exceptional. The one I inspected was a #1 frame DHE with 32" barrels but it was very light 6.5 lbs. maybe. I have a 30" GHE 20 gauge, straight stock, safety delete gun on an #0 frame that weighs in at well over 7 lbs. It was ordered and shipped to the West Coast, but I couldn't find any info on the buyer to connect it a Duck Club.

As far as frame size goes, I don't think it has as much to do with overall weight as people think. My 0 frame 20 weighs within 10 ounces of my 2 frame 12 ga. in the same configuration.

[Dean Romig]

Two of the most beautiful 20 gauge Parkers that I remember best were Wilbur Parker's AHE with long barrels (Larry can tell us the length) and an AH for sale at probably the first Southern I attended about 2006 or 07. Kevin McCormack will remember it. The fellow selling it would only sell it and a BHE 16 together. He would not break them up. Kevin described the AH 20 with straight grip and long barrels as "the quintessential Parker" for its features. A magnificent gun! But the BHE with it had far better figure in the wood. As I recall, the fellow wanted no less than $70k for the pair. Kathy was holding my money that day and I couldn't find her....





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[Rich Anderson]

Dean I seem to remember those guns. I also seem to recall they changed hands three times during the weekend.

[Dean Romig]

I dont know...
i walked away.





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[MARK KIRCHER]

Here are a few pics of my GH 20 - 32” straight grip 0 frame. This gun has been well used but not abused. It absolutely crushes targets and will get its chance on ducks in October. I expect it had a life of doves and varmints as it supposedly came from a single family owner in the south.

I recognize refinishing is a personal decision. One that is most often not taken lightly - given the expense and the fact you are (in my opinion) getting back a significantly different gun than you dropped off. But I am one who encourages others to embrace the scars. Love the scratches. Appreciate all of the dings and small dents and mars in the wood.

As much as I appreciate Andrews refinished gun, I would love to have held it prior to being sent out. I think it was wise of him to catalog the history of the gun through photos before the refurbish- something that can travel with the gun to its new caretaker in the future. Just one man’s opinion.

[Dean Romig]

That's a nice one Mark.

David Trevallion had one like that in his shop for more than seven years. It had 34" barrels. The owner would never tell David what he wanted done with it. It was dirty and all David ever felt he could do with it was to clean it and oil it. I tried to buy it but the owner wouldn't sell...





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[Rich Anderson]

Sometimes a gun just needs some TLC and a refurbish breathes new life into it for future generations where as it would have fallen by the way side otherwise.

Other's such as Marks gun just need to be cared for properly, cleaned after use and kept lubricated. The dings, dents and scratches along with the faded case color and blue is the history it can tell you, it's a vital part of the guns soul.

Both guns have history. One has a new lease on life the other a lifetime of use but never abuse.

[John Truitt]

Dean, from your post I believe you are making reference to a 34" GH 20.
If so that would be the third one I am aware of:
1. 34" VHE ordered out of Danville, Va
2. 34" DHE no safety #207429 that sold at auction in 2009
3. 34" GH you make reference to


A 34" 20 would be a very cool gun indeed.

[Dean Romig]

I'm sorry John - I didn't mean to mislead. The one at DT's was a 16 gauge.

Are you aware of Morris Baker's 34" VH 20?





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[MARK KIRCHER]

Dean,
I shouldered Morris' gun. :shock: It gave me goosebumps!!!

............And on the 8th Day He created Long barreled Parker 20's :bowdown:

[Rick Losey]

wouldn't that be duckbumps

[Dean Romig]

I had mentioned to Morris that I would like to find a 32" or a 34" twenty gauge while I was talking with him at Ernie's and he said he had a 34" and he'd bring it by later that day. When I saw it and hefted it I said "Would you like cash or a check?"

"Oh, it's not for sale Dean."
What a tease that guy is... :rotf:





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[John Truitt]

In that case I request Mr Baker to be present for the 2018 Parker vs LC Smith 20 ga event on Thursday at the Spring Southern. Obviously he needs to bring his 34" 20 ga gun for that event.
Please pass the word along to him.



PS: Team Parker is calling all 32" and 34" 16 ga and 20 ga guns to be present for this shoot. In that case all 26,28, and 30"ers as well :)

[Dean Romig]

I will do that John.






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[John Truitt]

Getting back to the original topic: I am blessed to have two 32" 20 ga DHE's.
Both 32" titanic steel barreled guns
One a #1 frame, the other a #2 frame.
Both without safety's.

Both shoot like rifles. Nice tight chokes and very well balanced guns.

[Brett Hoop]

Uncle Morris's long tom 20 is truly something, delightful to look down its rib. Off topic, but the earth mover for me, and I really thought I was immune to hammer guns, was the 0 frame gun with which he blindsided me. I felt altered. It has history as a back up, but all I needed to know, everything it could be, was right in my hands.

[Dean Romig]

There will be a forthcoming Parker Pages article (hopefully in the Winter 2017 Issue) about that one Brett - pictures and all.






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[Phillip Carr]

My VH 20 was delivered to a Mr Adams in Osterville MA. September 1917. 32" barrels chambered 2 7/8" Full and Full with Lyman sights. Sure wish I had a first name. It was ordered by Iver Johnson sporting Goods in Boston.
I have always figured it was orded by a duck hunter.
It is on a 1 frame and is an even 7 lbs.

[Dean Romig]

Phil, it shouldn't be hard to find info on this Mr Adams. Even without a first name you may be able to come up with something. US Census records, Osterville Historical Society...
Osterville is a very small community on the south side of Barnstable on the edge of Nantucket Sound. Population in 2010 was fewer than 4,000 people. Mr. Adams may have been the only adult male with that name in 1917.
I'm sure he was a waterfowl man - Osterville is a town of marshland and estuarine areas

Hmmm... maybe a side trip while you're in Boston? It's only 70 miles from Boston to Osterville.... 1 hour, 17 minutes.



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[Tom Jay]

1 hr 17 min only if not on a summer Friday afternoon

[edgarspencer]

When I was a young man, I worked for the Steamship Authority, which was the quasi state run ferry service to the Islands. My first year down there, I bought a Crosby Striper, a 24' traditional inboard bass boat, made by the Crosby Yacht yard in Osterville. For the seven seasons I worked on the cape, I kept it at Crosby's yard, when I went south to work on ocean going tug boats for the winter. Osterville is one of the most quaint, small villages on the cape, and most often missed by the furious paced tourists today; and that's a good thing.
I have no doubt, a visit would yield you some information.
http://www.ostervillemuseum.org/history.html

I swear I can smell that wonderful salt air.

[Dean Romig]

I hope Phil is able to fit a short visit to Osterville into his itinerary.





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[Phillip Carr]

If time allows It would be pretty neat place to visit.

[charlie cleveland]

looking forward to seeing and hearing about these long barrel beauty s dean...phil i hope you find more info on your gun i really like hearing about these guns travals and owners....charlie

[Mark Conrad]

PGCA members may want to check the Guns For Sale Forum.

[scott kittredge]

1926 DHE O frame 20 ga. 32". Narrow tapered rib.

Just noticed the wide triggers on this gun, this is the 2nd 32 in, 20 ga I have seen like that. does anyone know about the wide triggers, did same guy order them??:corn:
scott

[Phillip Carr]

Here is a picture of my VH 20 with 32”barrels along with my LC Smith Specialty grade 20 also with 32”

http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57873&stc=1&d=1508975942