Pressure Test for 19gn Red Dot

[Craig Larter]

I sent the following three loads to Tom Armburst for testing, a scan of the tests is below. Loads where hand weighted as below:
A. 10ga. Federal hull cut to 2 7/8”, WW 209 primer, 19gr Red Dot, Remington SP-10 wad, 2x .125 card wads and 1 .70 card wad in bottom of wad, 1.125oz # 7 ½ lead shot.
B. 10ga. Remington hull cut to 2 7/8”, WW 209 primer, 19gr Red Dot, Remington SP-10 wad, 3x .125 card wads in bottom of wad, 1.125oz # 7 ½ lead shot.
C. 10ga Cheddite hull cut to 2 7/8", Remington SP-10 wad, 3x .125 card wads in bottom of wad, 1.125oz # 7 ½ lead shot.
THIS IS NOT A RECOMMENDATION FOR INFORMATION ONLY. Pressure higher than I hoped for was hoping for 5200+- equal to black.
Craig Larter

[Daniel Carter]

Thank you, have been using this load for about 8 months and have been very happy with it, crows not so much. Glad to know the pressure in that i use all 3.

[Pete Lester]

Craig thanks for sharing this. I see the pressures and velocities as "period correct" for the short ten with 1 1/8 ounce load and they are great loadings for composite barrel guns and with a powder that has and should be available for a long time to come. I also believe this data shows that if one uses their head good short ten loads have and can be wildcatted. I will add these to 2 7/8" reloading data spreadsheet, very helpful since many of the powders on the existing data are obsolete.

[edgarspencer]

Craig, I don't load for Ten, but I do for 12,16&20 so am interested in seeing everyone's data. To what do you attribute the jump in pressure in #2 ?

[Daryl Corona]

My guess would be the Remington hulls.

[Craig Larter]

The only difference is the remington hulls. The remington and cheddite hulls have similar internal volume but the plastic used on the cheddite hulls is softer more of a low density polyethylene. You will note that I had to add card wads to these loads versus 7625 because the red dot takes up much less room. Remington hulls have a larger rim diameter and will not chamber in my LC smith guns. Not a problem with federal and cheddite. So I plan to standardize on the cheddite hull since they are cheaper and very durable plus I obtain cheddite hulls from my non reloading buddies that shoot RST,s.

[edgarspencer]

Thanks, Craig. Hard to believe that the wall section of the Chedite and Federal shells can absorb as much as 800 psi. I'll admit, it's something I Never gave any thought to in 50 years of reloading.

[Pete Lester]

I have not handled a Cheddite 10ga hull, what is the base wad made of? Federal hulls with their fiber/paper base wads are known for lower pressures.

[Daniel Carter]

Cheddite has a plastic base wad.

[Pete Lester]

Cheddite has a plastic base wad.

I think a better question is why does a Federal hull produce lower pressure with all things being roughly equal, it's the fiber base wad, 89% the pressure of a Remington and 93% the pressure of a Cheditte in this test with Red Dot.

[William Davis]

Appreciate your posting this. Thinking about replacing my 23 G Green Dot 1 1/8 oz load, same components . It's a little faster, more than it needs to be, and not a real clean burner. Will load up some of the 19/RD 1 1/8 shoot a round of Clay's and see how I like them.

Question for you guys, seems to me Green Dot is better suited for heavier shot loads. Agree ?

William

[bob weeman]

I had trouble with Cheddites not chambering in both of my 10's after a couple reloadings. Even after super sizing. It was a rim diameter issue as well. So far Remingtons are working ok. Different lots than your Cheddites I guess?? Or maybe just my guns?

[Bill Murphy]

Regardless of the difference in pressure of these three loads, none of them will damage a well preserved ten gauge. A switch to Green Dot or Unique will lower the pressure, but maybe at the expense of poor cold weather performance. Thanks for sharing this information, Craig.

[Kevin McCormack]

Thanks very much for sharing this data, Craig. I gave up reloading years ago when I became a wealthy government retiree, and a friend of mine opened his own ammo factory. I don't own or shoot a 10 gauge, but both my brothers are fanatics about them. I know they'll be interested in these figures.

[CraigThompson]

Well if I get an invite to a decent Dove field for the opener I just may carry a 10 with Red Dot 1 1/8 ounce loads of #8 . As well as a 20 gauge VHE . Well that is after I shoot a round of skeet and see how they do in my EH #2 frame .

[Eric Johanen]

CL. how are your crimps with this wad column? How deep are you seating the SP10 wad? I found that using a 16 ga. lubed 1/2 inch fiber filler with a .125 nitro card in the wad cup gives me perfect crimps with no dishing. Without the .125 card I found I had dished crimp with some open centers. I am asking only because your .375 filler is quite a bit shorter than my fiber/nitro card filler combination. I had my 1881 Greener out today on the clays course using both Cheddite and Federal hulls and crushed the clays. No large chips and most were vaporized. The 19 grains of Red Dot with an ounce and a eighth of 7.5 shot works very well. Works nicely with all three hulls. Both my Greener and George T. Abbey(probably a Scott made gun) have laminated steel barrels and the tested pressure ranges are comfortable in these heavy barrels. Neither guns are tightly choked or overly heavy at under 9 pounds. I think of them as over bored heavy 12's. Great guns and great loads.

[Craig Larter]

Eric: I think the crimps on my loads look good with no open centers, no wad pressure on the sp-10. I had to add card wads to the red dot load versus 7625 since RD takes up much less room. Craig

[charlie cleveland]

good looking crimps...charlie

[Eric Johanen]

Those are fine crimps. I too use no wad pressure. I suspect it's just the difference in the way our loaders are adjusted. Mine is a MEC Sizemaster. I use Red Dot and SR 7625 for the once and an eighth and SR 4756 for once and a quarter. I have a very good supply of both of the SR powders. Must take down the 16 ga. machine and set up the 10 soon as I have worked my way to a pile of empty hulls. 10 ga. hammer guns are way too much fun!!

[Pete Lester]

CL. how are your crimps with this wad column? How deep are you seating the SP10 wad? I found that using a 16 ga. lubed 1/2 inch fiber filler with a .125 nitro card in the wad cup gives me perfect crimps with no dishing. Without the .125 card I found I had dished crimp with some open centers. I am asking only because your .375 filler is quite a bit shorter than my fiber/nitro card filler combination. I had my 1881 Greener out today on the clays course using both Cheddite and Federal hulls and crushed the clays. No large chips and most were vaporized. The 19 grains of Red Dot with an ounce and a eighth of 7.5 shot works very well. Works nicely with all three hulls. Both my Greener and George T. Abbey(probably a Scott made gun) have laminated steel barrels and the tested pressure ranges are comfortable in these heavy barrels. Neither guns are tightly choked or overly heavy at under 9 pounds. I think of them as over bored heavy 12's. Great guns and great loads.

Eric FWIW I do about the same as you with the Federal hull and 19gr of Red Dot. I use a 1/2" 16ga fiber filler wad and a piece of a cheerio to achieve a proper folded crimp using the SP-10 wad. I am not sure how Craig is getting a good crimp with a much shorter filler wad column but obviously he is. Here are three random Federal's loaded with 19gr of RD for the soon to start crow season. Thanks again Craig for sharing this information with us.

[CraigThompson]

Eric: I think the crimps on my loads look good with no open centers, no wad pressure on the sp-10. I had to add card wads to the red dot load versus 7625 since RD takes up much less room. Craig

I put an overshot card in my REM hull SP-10 wad with 16 gauge card wad in the shot cup and 1 1/4 ounce shot to keep the top flat . Oh yeah that's with 30 grains of SR7625 .

[Craig Larter]

OK I would like try and test Unique for 1 1/8oz low pressure 10ga target loads. I think I will start with 25gr. Hoping for less pressure versus red dot. Opinions?? Craig

[Pete Lester]

OK I would like try and test Unique for 1 1/8oz low pressure 10ga target loads. I think I will start with 25gr. Hoping for less pressure versus red dot. Opinions?? Craig

Craig I do not understand your desire to achieve a lower pressure load for the short ten than you have with these tested Red Dot loads. They are period correct loads that will not harm a sound composite barrel gun. Loads with pressures lower than these (especially the Federal hull load) is risking the possibility of squib loads especially in cold weather. When you are in the field it is heartbreaking to have a good shot only to have the shell fail when you pull the trigger. I can attest to these Red Dot loads in the federal hull working well in very cold temps, I use them crow hunting in January - March each year in temps in the low teens.

[Craig Larter]

OK Pete I respect your opinion. Thanks fro the input. Craig

[William Davis]

If you look at Alliants 12 G data lot of Unique loads for 1 1/8 oz at about the charge weights you mentioned. 12s are not 10s but all are fair amount higher in pressure than the 19 g Red dot 10 g load tested.

When powder was in short supply I tried to work up a 1150 fps 1 1/8 oz Short ten load with Unique. Everything at target velocity left a lot of unburned powder. Found a 23 G Green Dot load that worked, at higher velocity and unburned powder left in the bore. Drop it down to 1150 fps more unburned powder, not as bad as Unique still not very satisfactory.

William

[Paul Harm]

With a little research, I think you'll find that many BP and smokeless loads were as high or even higher than the pressures your loads are showing. Thanks for testing and showing the results. I shoot 19grs/RD and 1oz of shot in a 2 3/4" 10ga shell for clays and it works very well.

[CraigThompson]

intresting ����

[Bill Murphy]

As I stated in an earlier post, and has been restated by other posters, the Red Dot loads will not damage any good condition ten gauge and eliminates all cold weather performance problems that you could get with slower powders.

[charlie cleveland]

it would be hard to find a load better than the 19 grain redot loadwith 1 1/8 ounce or 1 1/16 ounce of lead...its a good squirl load...charlie

[CraigThompson]

I just tried two of the RD 19 gr 1 1/8 ounce loads in the REM hull with three 16 gauge .125 card wads in the bottom of the cup . In my NH that's a rather pleasant load .

[Paul Harm]

I'm sure many guys already know, but for those of you who don't, Promo is the same as Red Dot only cheaper. Use the same data as for RD but weigh your loads, they may vary a bit. I've used it for years after a trap shooter advised me about it. I don't think there's a cheaper powder out there. Just paid $101/8 lbs - bought two of them.

[Tom Pellegrini]

Clay Dot is supposed to be a cleaned up version of Red Dot and is also very reasonably priced. I have been using it for the last two years. INHO

[CraigThompson]

I'm sure many guys already know, but for those of you who don't, Promo is the same as Red Dot only cheaper. Use the same data as for RD but weigh your loads, they may vary a bit. I've used it for years after a trap shooter advised me about it. I don't think there's a cheaper powder out there. Just paid $101/8 lbs - bought two of them.

You got a heck of a price then !

I just checked Jerrys dealer price and it's $126 for an 8 pounder and an 8 of Red Dot is $135 . And of course that doesn't include shipping and HAZMAT . Now Greentop the local candy store sells an 8 of Clay Dot for $150 plus tax retail and an 8 of Red Dot at $156 plus tax .

So what they sold it to you was 20% below dealer cost from distributers without shipping and any other fees .

[Paul Harm]

Life is wonderful. Our club buys all our reloading supplies from Dawsons and they give us a bit lower price than what's listed.

[Ed Blake]

Clay Dot is supposed to be a cleaned up version of Red Dot and is also very reasonably priced. I have been using it for the last two years. INHO

I use Claydot in 7/8 oz 12 gauge loads. What is your load for a 10?

[Bill Murphy]

Responding to William Davis's post, you should be aware that his experience with Green Dot and Unique and unburned powder is a result of unacceptable low pressure. In light 1 1/8 ounce loads in a ten gauge, fast powders are the correct choice. Red Dot is a much better choice than Green Dot or Unique, both of which are way too slow burning. Mr. Davis's post describing a Unique load that is a higher pressure than a Red Dot load must include another component that causes that odd phenomenon. Craig Larter should comment on my comments.

[William Davis]

Bill I never tried Unique in the 10 my comment was from reading Alliants 12 G data, they showed much larger charges around 25 grains having higher pressure than 19 of Red Dot in 12 G. Equal charge weight considering slower burn no doubt Unique has less pressure than Red Dot.

No matter that 1 1/8 oz 19 gr Red Dot load with a 16 G fiber wad in the bottom of Remington SP 10 wads is the one for short 10 target loads. I used it at the Fall Southern in my Parker 10 Hammer and today on Clays in the Ithaca 10. Easy shooting clean burn nice breaks. Now that we have hard data on pressure no need for me to look further.

William

[Eric Johanen]

Nice day so the Greener 10 ga. hammer gun got out on the clays course again. When I did my part the clays were vaporized, not just crushed! This is not an especially tight chocked gun and the shot string seems to be pretty short as a whole bunch of shot gets to the target at the same time. One can not do better than the 1 1/8 oz shot and 19 grains of Red Dot for target use. I mixed in a few 1 1/4 oz loads with SR 4756 and they perform as well. Just way too much fun shooting these short ten's. Mix of Cheddite, Federal and Remington hulls all work well. Both of my 10's love these loads and generate interest when I have them out. As William stated there is really no reason to look further that the Red Dot load for general target use. The heavier load is great for longer clays and reaching out is not a problem. I can save my SR 7625 for the 12 and 16 ga. hammer guns.

[Craig Larter]

Please note on my initial post. The card stack for the federal load should read 2x.125 card wads and 1x.070 wad NOT 1x.70 card wad.

[Paul Harm]

Eric, try 19grs RD and 1oz of shot . I would have to believe with such a short stack height of shot there's hardly any deformation of shot giving even better patterns and a real short shot string. It's what I've finally settled on for my 10ga claybird shooting.

[Milt Fitterman]

A nitro card (from Ballistic) costs more than an eighth ounce of lead shot unless I did the math wrong. For those of you who are looking to fill up the hull for a good crimp might consider using a few cheerios in lieu of three overshot cards. Seems to work well if you put the cheerios over the shot. If you put it into the wad first, sometimes it is picked up by the drop tube and clogs it causing a mess.

[Paul Harm]

One 1/2" cushion wad will work and can be cut for the correct length. The cheerio, navy bean or pop corn also works. Some guys don't like the cheerio because it can smash.

[Milt Fitterman]

I have always been concerned the navy bean will interfere with the pattern. Although the cheerio tends to smash down a bit, it is hard enough to help form a good crimp and when you fire it disintegrates into harmless cooked oats. No mice in the loading room yet!

[Ed Blake]

I had .125 14 gauge card wads left over from a muzzleloading shotgun. Two of these cards in the bottom of the shot cup work fine but I still need a thin overshot card on top of the shot to get a good crimp. I was afraid this would affect the pattern, but from what I have researched this should not be a problem. 16 gauge cushion wads in order.

[Rick Losey]

when i use a Cheerio - j put it in before the shot and just don't push the loading tube all the down- i get a good crimp (i have also had good luck with bamboo curls left over from rod planning - they don't add any weight at all) the point is to take up volume without adding weight

in the 10 ga loads Red Dot i had tested (results were posted in this forum) - i did the same as Ed-- used .125 cards from my percussion shotgun - you can get them from Circle Fly at a very reasonable cost

[Paul Harm]

You're filler, no matter what it is, should be added before the shot. That way, the bean or whatever used, being lighter than shot , will fall back from the shot column and not disrupt the pattern. If it where on top the shot I could see where it might mess up the pattern. JMHO. At one time I was reloading brass shells with fiber wads and couldn't hit anything. I was trying a thicker OS card - .060 - so it didn't have to be glued in. I patterned it and was getting a donut pattern. The hole in the center had to be about 12". I believe some guys load a thick OS card and get away with it, but I just use the .028 card from now on. I also found too many cushion wads hurt the pattern. I was using three 1/2" cushion wads trying to build up the load to the top of the brass shell . Went back to one and no more problems.

[Ed Blake]

Paul - so are you saying the thin OS card will not blow patterns? I received my 1/2’’ 16 gauge cushion wads. The resulting crimps are much better and do not require the thin OS wad to get a good crimp.

[Paul Harm]

All my roll crimp shells, and all those made in yester-year by the factories had thin over shot cards and didn't have blown patterns. In the past some guys claim they used half a nitro card for over shot and didn't have a problem. I was just saying in my experience a thicker than .028 card was giving me poor patterns. Like Rick, when loading shells be it 10 or 12ga on a S.S. Mec that needs some sort of filler, the trick is to seat the wad then let up on the handle and add the filler. When you pull the handle back down to add shot don't go all the way down. My 10ga press has a 12ga drop tube so the 16ga wad doesn't get stuck in the drop tube quite so easily.

[Bill Murphy]

Craig L., have you sent any test loads to Armbrust since 2017 when you had the 19 grain Red Dot loads tested?

[Craig Larter]

Bill M I have not. I have settled on the Cheddite load, I love their 10ga hulls they outlast the Remington hulls by a wide margin and they don't have a paper base wad like the Federal. I buy all my 10ga bismuth from Morris.

[Bill Murphy]

Morris has supplied me with ten gauge shells for years. I am a reloader of Federal and Remington hulls because the RST shells are too pretty to shoot.

[Gary Laudermilch]

Back in the early 70's I worked with the DuPont ballistics lab developing buffered turkey loads utilizing Rem hulls. We were having trouble keeping the pressures where we wanted them. They suggested tying Federal hulls. The switch lowered the pressure by 1000 psi all else being equal.

[charlie cleveland]

gary what caused the pressure to go down...I would have guessed it to be the primer...charlie

[Gary Laudermilch]

Charlie, the components did not change. Just the hull. According to the ballisticians at the time, the difference was in the composition of the plastic used in the hulls. Federal plastic being more elastic.

[Pete Lester]

Charlie, the components did not change. Just the hull. According to the ballisticians at the time, the difference was in the composition of the plastic used in the hulls. Federal plastic being more elastic.

I have been under the impression that hulls with composite base wads produced less pressure than an all plastic hull with all other factors being the same.

[John Dallas]

Tom Armbrust ran test on the effect on velocity from hulls which were new, once fired, up to about 10 reloading. Lowest velocity was the new hull. He theorized that the fired hulls were scuffed up from the firing, and created higher pressures/velocity from the reloads

[Pete Lester]

Tom Armbrust ran test on the effect on velocity from hulls which were new, once fired, up to about 10 reloading. Lowest velocity was the new hull. He theorized that the fired hulls were scuffed up from the firing, and created higher pressures/velocity from the reloads

I think this is the article about that test, loading various hulls up to 12 times. As far as I can see pressure and velocity stayed pretty consistent from new to loaded 12 times for most of them.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/caselife.htm

[John Dallas]

It's been a long time since I read the article. The Winchester tests describe what I was talking about

[Dian Pilcher]

Hey, do you load your bismuth same as lead?