Parker AH, give me a ballpark figure, please!!

[Greg Baehman]

A friend found this gun for sale, knowing I have an interest in Parkers let me know of its availability. In his opinion, he thought it was in great shape for such an old gun. At this time I have not had the opportunity to handle or examine the gun in person. The PGCA letter doesn't mention ejectors and the Serialization book does not identify it as having ejectors either, however; the gunshop letter says it does have ejectors. Sorry, these are the only pics I have at the moment. Given the sketchy info we've been given, please offer up your opinion on its approximate worth.

[Dean Romig]

Greg, that's one you're going to have to hold in your hands and take a looong time to examine each and every detail. As you know, the Grade 6 guns of that era are some of the most exquisitely finished Parkers ever made. The engraving alone should take your breath away.

These pictures only hint at what the gun might truly be. I don't think anyone can really give you a ballpark estimate with the exception of the Blue Book at this point.





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[Greg Baehman]

I have now verified that it is an ejector gun, there is basically no color remaining on the outside, the SSBP does have a small amount of pitting, there is a scratch through the checkering and is visible in the first pic above running on the right side from the back of the safety area to the fleur de lis. I have also found out there is additional provenance to what has been shown.

I fully realize what you're saying Dean, anyone have a Blue Book value?

[John Campbell]

Let's see... Chicago Exposition gun, handled through Spalding, purchased and used by a Civil War hero named Ambrose! I'd say the provenance we see is worth a great deal. And the "additional" may be even more interesting!

I'd factor all of it into this gun's worth.

[Bill Anderson]

I have now verified that it is an ejector gun, there is basically no color remaining on the outside, the SSBP does have a small amount of pitting, there is a scratch through the checkering and is visible in the first pic above running on the right side from the back of the trigger area to the fleur de lis. I have also found out there is additional provenance to what has been shown.

I fully realize what you're saying Dean, anyone have a Blue Book value?

No actual figures given for damascus guns,

https://bluebookofgunvalues.com/Subscriptions/ModelList.aspx?product=1&id=1335

but this may help...

https://bluebookofgunvalues.com/Subscriptions/ModelList.aspx?product=1&id=1337

Bill

[todd allen]

Being an old pigeon shooter, the A grades hold a special place in my heart. Damascus with ejectors is icing on the cake.

[Greg Baehman]

Thank you for those links Bill. I went there and registered. I tried to find a link to the values, but the links I tried only took me to offers to buy different iterations of The Blue Book of Gun Values. Is there a way to find a ballpark figure on this gun without waiting for a book to arrive?

[Bill Anderson]

copied from the blue book ...

AH 12 ga.

Grading 90% 80% 70% 60%
$40,000 $37,000 $35,000 $32,000

50% 40% 30% 20% 10%
$30,000 $28,000 $25,000 $22,000 $20,000

AH
a scarce gun, extremely decorative and flawlessly executed, Acme steel barrels. Approx. 300 mfg. 10 ga. is very rare in this model.
Add 25%-50% for ejectors, depending on original condition (AHE Model).

Bill

the numbers all slid together from the way I copied it, but you can see the respective values.

[Kevin McCormack]

This is another great example of a small number of high grade Parkers made up for special expositions & etc. that had loving care lavished on them in terms of engraving, wood, and final finish with grandiose ideas of representing America's Finest Shotgun. Also a great example of the track through the universe of many of them that were sent to such venues, displayed, touted, admired and coveted, and ultimately, returned to Parker Brothers. (Recall and reflect on the checkered past of the "Czar's Gun".

Working in reverse from the items of provenance cited for the gun, Thomas Ambrose was very likely the ultimate purchaser of the gun, AFTER it had been returned to the factory from the NY Exposition, having been sent there AFTER being purchased by Ambrose from Parker and sold to Spalding, whom undoubtedly wanted the choke opened up and/or a specific pellet count boring specified before agreement to purchase. No doubt Ambrose embraced the "customer's always right" axiom, very smart in a purchase of this magnitude!

So far as being an ejector gun, the date of original manufacture as well as the return dates to the factory for subsequent work predate the factory installation of ejectors by Parker by at least 3-4 years. Yes, they could have been retrofit; yes, they could be after market items by Wolfperger & Moran, Josef Singer & etc., but there is no way to tell without an in-hand examination by someone who knows what they are examining.

At this point, the evaluation(s) based on the Blue Book of Gun Values go into the trash can (sorry, Steve!!). In all likelihood this was (and hopefully still is) a spectacular gun, but the 1983 estimate of $30K is, at best, a problematic pipedream. You always have to ask yourself, given the final description(s) of the gun in hand, what would YOU pay for it???

[Rich Anderson]

Greg the pictures are not good enough to give a value and I agree with Dean that you will need to closely examine the gun.

As far as value maybe this will help, I have a BHE live bird gun (no safety), 30 inch fine Damascus barrels, no case color but it has floral engraving no big game animals. I value this between $13K and $13.5. The AH/AHE would be proportionately more.

[Greg Baehman]

Thank you gents, I appreciate each and every one of your responses. I have made arrangements to see the gun in the morning -- stay tuned.

[Craig Budgeon]

The letter supplied by James Sport Shop is dubious at best and only supplies you with the grade and serial number. The captains during the Civil War that became famous were promoted to colonels and generals so Captain Ambrose ownership adds 0 to the value of this gun. If your knowledge of Parker values is not sufficient have a Parker expert present before you reach for your wallet and try to deal with the guns current owner. The 30K value maybe correct but must be construed as a lucky guess by its author.

[Tim Thomas]

If Mr Ambrose died in 1949 at the age of 100 he would have been 12 in 1861.

[Rick Losey]

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=40251950

"Ambrose was only 16 when he enlisted as a private in Company A, 53d Kentucky mounted infantry, five months before the end of the war."

" After the war he was a captain in the Ohio-Indiana militia for several years."

[Craig Larter]

I own a AH 10ga with damascus barrels that was a Parker exhibition gun. Here is the description from Julia's: "Excellent, as found. Bbls retain 85 to 90% orig Damascus pattern with some streaky staining (which may clean). Action retains 60 – 70% strong orig case hardening color, with some brown staining (which also might clean). Trigger guard retains 60-70% of its strong orig blue. Stocks retain most of their orig gloss finish, areas darkened where worn through, and oil soaked, with a considerable number of light marks and scratches. Bores are very fine with very light minute frosting. Action is tight. It is estimated that only eight 10 bore grade 6 guns were made with 32″ bbls." I paid $26.5K delivered to my home. It seems in line with the BB values. Craig

[Greg Baehman]

Well gents, I examined the gun this morning and it didn't have as much condition as I was hoping for, in fact, it needs some work. This 12-ga. 30" 1-frame was used a lot as it's quite loose and rattles a bit, there are three dents in the left tube--one of them visible in the bore and another at the muzzle that now makes the muzzle out of round. Because the gun was sent back to Parker for choke alteration in 1904 and ejectors first became available in 1901, I was hopeful that the ejectors might have been retrofitted at the factory at that time, but unfortunately that wasn't the case--maybe someone can decipher whose they are by the attached photos (see forend pics and also note the small pin near the hinge pin)? I don't have a wall thickness gauge and the seller didn't have one either, so we do not know the MWT. The bores showed some pitting and light frosting. The SSBP has some light pitting on its surface and one of its screws appears to be a replacement with a narrow slot. Chokes measured .000/.015 and the chambers measured 2 5/8" with my Po' Man's Chamber Gauge. The damascus pattern has suffered some significant pattern loss and the checkering is somewhat worn where handled. Although the stock's finish appeared to be original, the forend appeared to have been refinished as there was some finish applied over the checkering. The PGCA letter states the gun left the factory with a 2 7/8" drop at heel and weighed 7 lbs. 1 oz. My tape showed it actually having a 3 1/8" drop and somehow gained 4 oz. since birth.

Knowing what we know now, anyone care to offer up an opinion on its worth based on its present condition?

[Rich Anderson]

What do you want to do with it? A hunting gun or a target gun? Cut, dented, out of round barrels, after market ejectors and assorted issues. IF I was looking for a high grade gun I'd keep looking and pass on this.

[Craig Budgeon]

If you were prepared to spend 30K for a good Parker A grade such as described by Craig Larter then you don't want to have to apologize for the flaws in this one. The gun pictured may sell for between 10-15k but I'm not convinced its worth 10k. The gun needs to be returned to its as manufactured by Parker original specifications which involves eliminating the ejectors, refinishing the gun complete, and lots of dollars.

[Kevin McCormack]

Thanks for the photos! The ejectors look like an installation after the Fischer patent design - not Wolfsperger & Moran since their ejector hammers are long and tubular, like the original Baker (British) design, which are also similar in appearance to those in the M21 Winchester ejector system. These are closer to the later Parker 'half moon' hammer shape, but with that noticeable rebate halfway down the face of the hammer.

[edgarspencer]

Those ejectors appear to be of the same manufacture as the ones on that interesting CH(E) Larry Frey recently bought from Tony Galazan. Look back to late may for that thread. He had the gun at Haussman's and I handled it. The installations seemed pretty nice.
Steve Barnett has had an AH 16ga with very unusual engraving for quite some time. I was quite interested in it until I had it in hand and didn't feel it was worth the $19,500 firm price. How does one compare a steel barreled 16 against a damascus barrelled 12, Both with the same aftermarket ejectors?

[John Campbell]

Compared to the AH I wrote about in the Spring issue of DGJ, this one seems in top condition. LOL. Seriously, the value in this gun also includes its provenance. Thus, if anyone acquires it, this AH should be returned to functionality, used little, and treasured greatly. Not fully "restored."

The ejectors it has are part of its history and cachet. Like the barrel dents and loose action. What needs fixed, can be fixed. Worry not.

BTW... one big issue remains: what does the seller want for the gun?

[Brian Dudley]

Yeah, that has been my wonder since the get-go. What is the asking price? Or is this just a game of "I'm thinking of a number between X and X".

The value of such a gun is highly subjective. Ask 10 people and likely get 10 very different answers.

[Greg Baehman]

When I got wind of this gun the only information I had was my friend's assessment that the gun was in "great shape for a gun this old", three poor pics of the gun, a copy of the PGCA letter, the copy of the James Sport Shop appraisal saying the gun in 1983 was in "mint condition" and they appraised it at $30K. (How much condition could a gun lose since 1983 that's owned by an elderly gent? I know mine haven't lost a lot.) My friend told me the seller had a $8495 down from $8995 price tag on it.

Assuming a Parker AH in mint condition would have a current market value a multiple of the present ask on the gun. My initial thought that if it was truly as described it might make for a great gun to flip.

Maybe you would think it a great idea to announce to the world in a public forum the price you paid today for a gun you're selling tomorrow? I didn't, and that's why I didn't reveal the asking price -- I was just asking for a ballpark price to verify what I believed I knew of an approximate valuation for the Parker AH.

Having said the above and finding out the gun's present condition I have decided to pass on it. The non-Parker ejectors was the deal killer for me.

Thanks all!

[Kevin McCormack]

Now that you have decided (IMHO very wisely) to pass on this gun, consider the following:

The first yellow light in this process should have been the vast discrepancy between the asking price of the gun and the current Blue Book valuations per degree of finish quoted by some of our more helpful members. ("If its too good to be true, it probably isn't). (Thanks to Dean, Craig, and others for the insights and the price quotes).

The amount of finish a "mint" gun can lose in 34 years (c. 1983-2017) would astound you, regardless of the age of the owner (who probably had nothing to do with its demise of condition). Improper cleaning, handling, storage, use and casual abuses can render an heirloom gun like this a dented rattletrap inside of a couple of years.

So far as calculating a "Flip Index" on a gun like this (see the first thought above), you have to remember that the great majority of us (neither great in number nor a majority) looking at guns of this magnitude and deciding to purchase or not to purchase based on projected profit from a secondary sale have been at this for a while now and have seen some truly bizarre 'deals'. Most of us I dare say usually wind up considering the financial equivalent of the hygroscopic meniscus in water science - e.g. water seeks its own level
- but there are limits!

So far as the aftermarket ejectors being a deal breaker, in retrospect they're almost a moot point - if they work OK, a plus: if they don't deactivate them and shoot the gun as an extractor setup (per John Campbell and others). One thing is for sure - ejector problems in a Parker Gun (factory or non- )are a very expensive proposition. And parts for these prototype pre-factory mechanisms are no more and must be hand made, installed and adjusted in situ.

In retrospect, I think you did the right thing.

[Bill Murphy]

Before you continue looking for graded Parkers to purchase, you should own a Manson wall thickness gauge and a bore micrometer. The total cost will be less than the expense of insured shipping for such a gun. If the barrels on this A Grade are acceptable, it would be worth thousands more than if they were too thin.

[Craig Budgeon]

Since the discussion on this thread has mentioned aftermarket ejectors occasionally, I thought some of the contributors would be interested in what Parker Bros. would charge to add ejectors to there extractor hammerless guns. The prices quoted are from an original flyer issued by Parker Bros. prior to WWI based on the fact they excluded adding ejectors to 8 ga. VH-GH $18.75, DH&CH $19.75, and BH&AH $22.50.

[Rich Anderson]

I'm curious as to the difference in cost by grade. Why would ejectors for an A grade cost more than a D grade? Is there something different in the mechanics of the ejectors?

[Brian Dudley]

No.

[Greg Baehman]

Before you continue looking for graded Parkers to purchase, you should own a Manson wall thickness gauge and a bore micrometer. The total cost will be less than the expense of insured shipping for such a gun. If the barrels on this A Grade are acceptable, it would be worth thousands more than if they were too thin.
How would I owning a wall thickness and a bore gauge save the cost of insured shipping?

Note: I purchase guns relatively infrequently. When I do, I have a couple of local friends that have these pieces of equipment, I always offer to pay them for the couple of minutes that it takes them to measure, but they have always refused any compensation. If we found barrels thin most, if not all, sellers would require the buyer responsible for return shipping, no?

[Dean Romig]

Why would ejectors for an A grade cost more than a D grade?


In a word - Salesmanship.

The buying public has always been the same - the perception of a higher quality ejector mechanism for their higher grade gun justified the higher price.





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[Craig Budgeon]

Nice guess Dean but I think a more plausible explanation was that the forearm iron required replacement to accomplish the modification. Since the iron was new it required engraving and on A&B's it required more time and a higher paid engraver to complete this work. I think this may justify the 20% increase in cost over the lower grades.

[Dean Romig]

Good points but the only engraving would be the screw heads on the underside of the iron and the bow of the rear of the iron, not the latch.
Come to think of it, at the wages of the day I guess $2 - $3 or so was a very fair price for the extra work.





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