A question regarding wood-specifically relating to color

[Bill Holcombe]

Now I have been hanging around here since 2013 or so and have tried to soak up a lot of knowledge. The more I learn the more I find I need to learn.

What I am currently interested in is the great variety of difference in color of wood on Parker. Some of this is related to age, use, grain, quality, grade, condition, finish etc.


But some guns have a stock that looks brand new but has a very brown finish/color to it whereas another gun of similar vintage and grade had a stock that almost glows red.

Is this just differences in Wood over time of production? Or is the really strong red color not correct or is it more a fact of the individual selling the guns having very good pictures?






I will post example of what I mean below:

[Brian Dudley]

The type of finish used on a stock can have a drastic effect on what the color of the wood will be like.

In my opinion, The top gun pictured has likely been restocked (butt only). it is way too red to be original finish. The "look" of the wood is just too new to be original. Also, look at the difference between the butt and forend in both finish and the wood itself. Not the same.
That stock was likely stained to get that red of a color or the species of wood is doing it, or a combo of both. A few other slight things about form also suggest a restock to me.

The bottom stock appears to be original wood and original finish.

[Bill Holcombe]

I believe it is says it a refinish or whatever on his website, I just didn't know if that was an authentic color or if it was too much. He has,several that have a very red color to them.

[Dean Romig]

I believe it depends largely on when the gun was manufactured, the finish used, and the condition of the gun in question. I have seen Remington era Parkers that are entirely original, high condition guns with the red finish. I thing they are exceptionally nice looking. This is not to say that different colored wood and possibly lower condition guns aren't just as nice in their own way...

Here is one sent to me by a member a couple of years ago - Remington era DHE in high original condition.


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[Dean Romig]

The type of finish used on a stock can have a drastic effect on what the color of the wood will be like.

In my opinion, The top gun pictured has likely been restocked (butt only).

I agree with Brian as to the gun having been restocked - but not supported by the color of the finish, but more, in my opinion, by the shape of the drop points and the nose of the comb not being correct.

it is way too red to be original finish. The "look" of the wood is just too new to be original. Also, look at the difference between the butt and forend in both finish and the wood itself. Not the same.
That stock was likely stained to get that red of a color or the species of wood is doing it, or a combo of both. A few other slight things about form also suggest a restock to me.

(!)

The bottom stock appears to be original wood and original finish.

And there you have two opinions.





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[Ian Byrkit]

Having experience with many Parker's including one my father purchased from Puglisi (about 3 years ago), I can tell you for a fact it is a gunsmith that Puglisi uses that must use a red stain. Although the gun my father bought is beautiful it is not restocked, but clearly refinished and it is that exact red. I have since noticed that in all of Puglisi's pictures where the guns are refinished they are that exact color. It certainly does not look bad, but it is not Parker and as my knowledge has grown over the past few years every Parker I have seen that color is from Puglisi. You will also notice when the barrels have been redone by this same gunsmith that they are way too black and it has been done by a hot bluing process that melts solder. You will be able to see the missing solder at the front of the barrels. Once you have studied and owned one of these guns, it is brutally obvious and if you are a purist you will be disappointed. I hope this helps someone in the future.

[Brian Dudley]

Not that some walnut cannot be reddish in color or be made that way through finish alone, but there are a good amount of people using that "winchester red" stain on parkers when refinishing for some reason.

[Dean Romig]

Austin Hogan wrote an article for Parker Pages on Parker stock finishes. He addresses the red color in some original Parker stock finishes. I'll look for the article and post it here.

One of the red finishes he discusses is shellac. Some folks may not know the fact that the old recipes for making shellac called for the use of powdered beetle "shell" or wing cases for the red color.






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[Garry L Gordon]

Austin Hogan wrote an article for Parker Pages on Parker stock finishes. He addresses the red color in some original Parker stock finishes. I'll look for the article and post it here.

One of the red finishes he discusses is shellac. Some folks may not know the fact that the old recipes for making shellac called for the use of powdered beetle "shell" or wing cases for the red color.
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I worked in an art conservation lab for several years and can vouch for the beetle shells as a component of shellac. All older mixtures of shellac and/or varnish will change color with age. They also go from more transparent to less so as they age. They are organic substances, like the wood, and age to the look we find them in today (assuming they are original). Kind of like most of us, eh?

[Brian Dudley]

Amber shellac will add color to a stock, and so will alkanet root (added in the finish).

But neither will typically make a stock quite as red as some of the above examples. There are redder shades of shellac than the traditional amber of course.

See below photos of stocks showing what Amber shellac will do by way of color.

Raw
54870

Finished
54871

With just sealer coat
54872

Finished
54873

[Paul Ehlers]

Brian,

I think it was you or maybe another member who is of the opinion that most original Parkers are shellac finished. Is shellac the proper finish?

What is your take on the outdoor wear & weather resistance of shellac? I've thought of using it but have been apprehensive not knowing how shellac holds up in wet weather conditions.

You're input will be appreciated.

By the way: The finished gun you pictured is beautiful!!

[Brian Dudley]

Shellac was a traditional wood finish for a very long time and well past the turn of the century. And it is my belief that a great many of our American doubles were finished with it.

The introduction of lacquers and then polyurethanes took its place. And along with that came the negative publicity of shellac being inferior to these other finishes and having poor moisture resistence.

Sound a lot like what happened to Damascus barrels after the widespread use of fluid steel???

I have done testing of the effects of water on shellac finishes and have found no ill effects from it. I am not saying that moisture in extreme cases will not have an effect on a shellac finish or on a finish that has a lot of thinning and wear or of the moisture is allowed to get under it. And other finishes can also be effected by moisture as well.

Yes, there are many types of more modern finishes that may be superior in ways to shellac. But we are talking about this more from a standpoint of what was and wasnt used originally. Not what is better that others in certain situations or modern day applications.

[Daniel G Rainey]

Thanks to everyone for the lessons on stock finish and color. Puglisi guns have always looked to me as if they been a little bit more than cleaned up. Have never seen a gun that looked well used listed by him. Am not saying they are not nice.

[George Davis]

I've purchased my stock refinishing supplies from Brain Board (417)-448-4892 and his Parker mixture seems to match the original colors better then anything I've seen. Just an opinion.

[Brian Dudley]

I use timberluxe for jobs that call for it as well. It also does a good job of adding the right color to the wood.
This W&C scott was done with it. Sorry, lighting is not the best.

54903

54904

[Paul Ehlers]

Brian,

Thank you for the information!

[Eric Eis]

I've purchased my stock refinishing supplies from Brain Board (417)-448-4892 and his Parker mixture seems to match the original colors better then anything I've seen. Just an opinion.

Does he have a website address?

[Brian Dudley]

TIMBERLUXE

[Paul Ehlers]

I've purchased my stock refinishing supplies from Brain Board (417)-448-4892 and his Parker mixture seems to match the original colors better then anything I've seen. Just an opinion.

I've used Timberluxe in the past. I was unaware Brian offered a Parker mixture. Do you have to call him & make a special order for the Parker mixture?

[Brian Dudley]

You can check with him and ask. I dont think he offers anything specific for Parkers.

If you find out differently, please let us know.

[Mike Poindexter]

Lot of history on this website about shellac-based French Polish and Parkers. Even some discussion in TPS Ch. 10. I have had good luck with it on revitalizing overly worn finishes, i.e. with 50% or more gone . If the finish is mostly all there, only crazed or cracked looking, I leave it alone. Search "shellac" or "french polish". Austin had the seminal article, I believe.

[Robin Lewis]

There are four Parker Pages articles listed in the index on topic of finishes:

1999 - Some Reflections on Stock Finish by Austin Hogan
2000 - More Thought on Stock ad Finishes by Austin Hogan
2004 - Some Reflections on Stock Finish by Austin Hogan
2007 - Stock Dimensions, Stock Finish, Butt Plates and Pads on Parker by Schroeder, John N. Davis Ray Roy ,Jeff Kuss and Ken Waite

[George Davis]

I don't believe he has a special Parker mixture but TimberLuxe provided me with the most original looking refinish. Again my opinion and each stock takes stain and finish differently.

[Dean Romig]

I just sat down at my PC to list my findings and see that Robin has beat me to it. Nice work Robin - and I used your search function on the "Parker Pages" link to find them. Just the same as yours but with the notations in red that I've added to make it a bit easier to find them.

There are four Parker Pages articles listed in the index on topic of finishes:

1999 Vol VI, Issue 1 - "Some Reflections on Stock Finish" by Austin Hogan
2000 Vol VII, Issue 5 - "More Thoughts on Stocks and Finishes" by Austin Hogan
2004 Vol XI, Issue 2 - "Some Reflections on Stock Finishes" by Austin Hogan
2007 - "Stock Dimensions, Stock Finish, Butt Plates and Pads on Parkers" by Schroeder, John N. Davis Ray Roy ,Jeff Kuss and Ken Waite


I hadn't looked for articles authored jointly by Austin and others so I didn't find the one Robin listed for the 2007 Issue of Parker Pages.





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[Tom Pellegrini]

I was given a copy of a post from this forum from 2007 I believe. It was supposedly the original mix that was used at the Parker factory. Some refer to it as French polish. Use a container of choice, I use an 8oz. jelly jar. The mix is one (1) inch of Zinnsers Bulls Eye Amber Shelac and 1/8 of an inch of boiled linseed oil. You can also add two drops of Japanese drier but I don't think it is needed. Mix well and apply with soft cotton cloth. Dries very quickly. Apply as many coats to your liking, fine steel wool between coats if you prefer. I used this on all three of my Parkers as you see in the pics. From left to right, 1901 vintage VH and also where credit is due, checkering recut by Brian Dudley, Center 1884 vintage Grade 1 hammer, and 1891 vintage GH.

[Bill Holcombe]

I have been tempted to try french polishing, but have never found a good enougg how to/example of the actual application and such to feel confident about trying it.

[Will Gurton]

Guys,

I am not trying to steer this discussion away from the direction it has gone about finish.

But, in my opinion whether re-stocked or not, I believe the upper stock to be Feather-Crotch American Black Walnut similar to what Ithaca and Winchester uses on higher grades and 21's.

Whereas, the lower stock is obviously English Walnut.

Will

Ithaca Mag-10 ready for finish and second or third coat straight Poly no stain.

You can see the Natural Red Hue in the raw photo just rearward of the comb.

Now, I am not saying that no stain was added to gun one, just saying some wood is more red than others.

[allen newell]

Brian, the finish on the last picture is superb. love that color. Brian, I'm referring to the pictures you posted on the first page of this thread.