Barrel weight stamp and final gun weight

[Garry L Gordon]

Just acquired a new-to-me GH 12 gauge. I bought it at auction on the spur of the moment (usually not a good thing, I know) after being drawn to it's light weight, especially for having 30 inch barrels. I thought it was a 16 gauge at first glance. I did not have the chance to take the gun apart, but went ahead and bought it anyway. There was just something about its weight and balance.

When I got the gun home and took it apart, I was pleased to see it was built on the #1 frame with barrel stamping of 3 lbs. 9 oz. I have weighed the gun and it comes in just a smidgen under 7 lbs. 1 oz. The gun has .040 chokes in both barrels and good wall thickness (.047 out about 8-10 inches from the breech). It appears not to have been messed with at all. I'm getting a letter on it, but after seeing a post of a DHE for sale on this site on a #1 frame with 28 inch barrels (and un-struck barrel weight a bit more than mine) that weighed more than my new purchase, I started to wonder how light Parker could make a 30 inch Damascus-barreled gun.

I'm sure that most of you have a record of your gun's un-srtuck barrel weight and overall weight, so I thought I'd ask to see what we can find to be the lightest #1 frame 12 gauge, 30 inch Damascus-barreled guns that we have an actual record for (no, "I knew a guy who had a friend who..." examples, please).

I'll start with mine at 7 lbs .55 oz. Any takers? :-)

[Dean Romig]

If it had been a sixteen gauge it most likely would have been heavier.





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[William Davis]

I have a 30 inch Damascus GH with barrels marked 3 12 Chokes are 30 & 38 guns weight is 7 lbs 6 oz on a postage scale.

William

[edgarspencer]

after seeing a post of a DHE for sale on this site on a #1 frame with 28 inch barrels (and un-struck barrel weight a bit more than mine) that weighed more than my new purchase, I started to wonder how light Parker could make a 30 inch Damascus-barreled gun.


If you are referring to the DH (it was not a DHE)I just listed, That gun seemed to me to be a bit heavy at 7lbs 1.2oz. I have a 28" BHE on a 1 1/2 frame, unstruck weight of 3lbs 12, and finished gun weight of 6 lbs 12 ounces.

I think you will find unstruck barrel weights VS gun weight all over the lot. Barrels were made well ahead of an order, and when an order specified a desired finished weight, it was up to barrel finisher to take it down to a near finished weight. Some barrels have more solder than others, and some have heavier walls than others

[Garry L Gordon]

I have a 30 inch Damascus GH with barrels marked 3 12 Chokes are 30 & 38 guns weight is 7 lbs 6 oz on a postage scale.

William

Thanks, William. This seems to be on the lighter side, would you agree. **I'll bet it's great to carry and shoot.** Is this also on a #1 frame?

Parkers get knocked for being heavier than, say, Fox or Ithaca guns, and I certainly have very lightweight Foxes and Ithacas. I just bought the GH in question above and a very early CE grade Fox (30 inch barrels, although not Damascus of course). It weighs 7 lbs. 11 oz. (no barrel weight markings -- too early for that I suspect). Certainly too small a sample size to draw any conclusions, but I hope we'll find that there are more lighter weight Damascus 12s than one might expect.

[Garry L Gordon]

If you are referring to the DH (it was not a DHE)I just listed, That gun seemed to me to be a bit heavy at 7lbs 1.2oz. I have a 28" BHE on a 1 1/2 frame, unstruck weight of 3lbs 12, and finished gun weight of 6 lbs 12 ounces.

I think you will find unstruck barrel weights VS gun weight all over the lot. Barrels were made well ahead of an order, and when an order specified a desired finished weight, it was up to barrel finisher to take it down to a near finished weight. Some barrels have more solder than others, and some have heavier walls than others

Edgar, thanks for your response. One of the wonderful things about Parker Bros. was how much they would individualize a gun. I think your examples are good ones to illustrate this.

I'm hoping that we'll get more responses to show just how light a 30 inch 12 can be (especially with Damascus barrels).

PS Your BHE sounds like a jewel!

[Dean Romig]

I just bought the GH in question above and a very early CE grade Fox (30 inch barrels, although not Damascus of course). It weighs 7 lbs. 11 oz. (no barrel weight markings -- too early for that I suspect).

It? The Parker GH or the Fox CE?

If the Parker GH, I would venture to say I can't remember ever seeing a GH, regardless of year made - or even a G hammer gun - that didn't have the pre-struck weight stamp. I suppose there may have been one or two that "slipped between the cracks" but it was the standard practice to stamp the pre-struck weight almost from the earliest days.





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[Garry L Gordon]

It? The Parker GH or the Fox CE?

If the Parker GH I would venture to say I can't remember ever seeing a GH, regardless of year made - or even a G hammer gun - that didn't have the pre-struck weight stamp. I suppose there may have been one or two that "slipped between the cracks" but it was the standard practice to stamp the pre-struck weight almost from the earliest days.
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Sorry, Dean. I guess I'm too linear. The Fox had no barrel weight marking. The GH is the one noted in the original post (with photo) along with its un-struck barrel weight. Forgive the confusion.

[edgarspencer]

Something got me to thinking (no small feat lately) and I did an unscientific comparison of two similar 1 1/2 frame 12s. Both with skeleton butts, and same LOP.
A 30" DHE with bbls marked 3lbs 14 oz., actual weight 3lbs, 5.4 oz.
Receiver with fore end; 4lbs, 3.0oz., for a total assembled weight of 7lbs,8.4oz.

A 28" BHE, with bbls marked 3lbs, 12oz., Actual weight, 3 lbs, 0.0oz.
Receiver with fore end; 3lbs, 12.2oz., for a total assembled weight of 6lbs, 12.2oz

The 28" Barrels were 5.4 ounces less than the 30".

In the past I have found that, on average, 2" at the muzzle accounted for about 2-3 ounces of unstruck weight, so the BHE barrels apparently have had more striking done.

The BHE Receiver and fore end weighed 6.8oz. less than a nearly identical DHE.

The remainder of the difference in weight must be in both the boring out, (evidenced by the two plugs in the checkered butt) and the density of the stock.

[Daniel G Rainey]

I have a 12 PH on a 1 frame with 30 inch barrels ( twist ) marked 3lbs 12 oz. gun weight is 7 1/4.

[William Davis]

" Thanks, William. This seems to be on the lighter side, would you agree. **I'll bet it's great to carry and shoot.** Is this also on a #1 frame?"

My mistake I should have said "yes it's a 1 frame". It is a nice handling gun I do shoot a heavier gun better though. My 2 frame VH 30 inch weighs nearly 8 lbs 100 shot round of clays weight is a good thing. .

William

[Bill Holcombe]

I have a 1 frame 12 DH with 30" barrels that ways 7lb 11 oz. Have another 1 frame with 28" barrels that weighs 6 lbs 8 oz

[charlie cleveland]

i bet the 6 lb gun kicks a little...charlie

[Dean Romig]

For what it's worth, I have a 2-frame DH 12 with 30-inch Titanic Steel barrels that weighs 7lbs., 14oz.






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[Bill Holcombe]

i bet the 6 lb gun kicks a little...charlie

Surprisingly not. I don't know if it's the 2.5 inch shells or growing up shooting my dad's 20ga A5 but i haven't ever felt like a gun kicks hard after growing up with that thing to bruise my shoulder hunting quail and dove. I love his 2 old humpbacks but those things kicked worse than any 12 gauge I have ever shot.

[edgarspencer]

I have a 1 frame 12 DH with 30" barrels that ways 7lb 11 oz.

I have a 2-frame DH 12 with 30-inch Titanic Steel barrels that weighs 7lbs., 14oz.

A2-Frame DH12 with 30" Damascus barrels

[Garry L Gordon]

A2-Frame DH12 with 30" Damascus barrels
Yikes! That's a lightweight Parker (and good looking, at least what I can see, to boot!).

Has anyone examined the weight differential between the stamped, unstruck barrel weight and the final barrel weight? The gun that started this thread is my new-to-me GH which weighs 7 lbs. .55 oz. The barrel is stamped 3 lbs. 9 oz. and it actually weighs 3 lbs 1.98 oz. I still think this is an unusually lightweight 30 inch Damascus gun.

After reading lots of posts in this thread and many others, it seems that many of the more frequent contributors shoot some form of clay sports with their guns and seem to lean to heavier guns (logical). I use mine for hunting only and I like 'em light. I have English 12s much lighter, but this Parker GH is a nice gun to lift and carry...and it will go with me this coming season(!)

[Dean Romig]

This subject has been discussed and studied a few times on this forum and the consensus was that the average difference between pre-struck stamped weight and finished weight is around 8 ounces.





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[Garry L Gordon]

This subject has been discussed and studied a few times on this forum and the consensus was that the average difference between pre-struck stamped weight and finished weight is around 8 ounces

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Thanks, Dean, I assumed this to be the case. Is there a good way to find that discussion?

[Dean Romig]

Use the "Search" function and type in keywords like 'difference' or 'pre-struck' or something else that might work.





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[Gerald McPherson]

Is it safe to assume that it the difference is within 4 or 5 ounces that they would not have honed? The reason i ask is I just bought one that has very nice bores and and weight is only about 2 ounces less.

[Garry L Gordon]

Use the "Search" function and type in keywords like 'difference' or 'pre-struck' or something else that might work

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Thanks! I hadn't noticed the search function. Now I feel like I fallen down the rabbit hole. I'm still searching, but found some interesting and conflicting information (predictable, as the time frame I have read within includes over five years). So far the most definitive information was from a "study" that sampled 50ish guns and plotted un-struck and final barrel weight. If I read the article correctly, the final weight averaged 88 % of the stamped weight.

I also found a statement, with confirmation from several members at the time, that the barrel weight stamp was actually the weight of the barrels AND the forend. (Hey, is that the first instance of fake news?! ;-) )

Some interesting reading...

[Garry L Gordon]

Is it safe to assume that it the difference is within 4 or 5 ounces that they would not have honed? The reason i ask is I just bought one that has very nice bores and and weight is only about 2 ounces less.

This raises an interesting question. I'll be curious to see what responses come in for this. Based on the article I just read, your case, Gerald, would be an outlier.

[Dean Romig]

I think if there is any question that the bores might have been honed it would be wise to have the barrel wall thickness measured.





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[Garry L Gordon]

Is it safe to assume that it the difference is within 4 or 5 ounces that they would not have honed? The reason i ask is I just bought one that has very nice bores and and weight is only about 2 ounces less.

Gerald, Dean has (always) good advice -- get the barrel walls measured if there's any doubt.

However, if the article/study I found is a guide, and one uses the .88 (88%) metric -- percent final barrel weight from barrel stamped weight -- your 2 ounce differential seems out of the norm. What is the weight stamp on the barrels?

I did the arithmetic on the barrels that started this thread and they are spot-on with the .88 mark (these barrels are marked 3 lbs 9 oz. and are 3 lbs and just under 1 oz -- .88 would suggest 3 lbs 1.35 oz, so this is close enough to bear out the study results). The study was about quality control in Parker manufacturing, and, remember, each barrel set was struck by an individual with significant skill in achieving final gun weight based on the specifications of the order. Your 2 oz. differential would suggest the barrels were struck out of the norm (.88) unless the unstruck weight was extraordinarily light (2 oz. would be in the neighborhood of a 10 oz. unstruck weight, and I'm guessing that no such set exists)...OR that the order specified a heavier than normal set of barrels. Do you have a letter on the gun? Are you sure your weight measures are accurate? This is intriguing.

[edgarspencer]

If you're certain your scale is accurate, and the barrels truly do only weigh 2 oz. less than the pre striking weight, the thought of thin walls certainly wouldn't be keeping me up at night.

[Garry L Gordon]

If you're certain your scale is accurate, and the barrels truly do only weigh 2 oz. less than the pre striking weight, the thought of thin walls certainly would be keeping me up at night.

Edgar, thanks for chiming in. Help me understand why only a couple ounces differential would be more worrisome than a reduction in weight much greater than the 88% mark of the study of one of our members. I'm not questioning your judgement, just trying to learn. I'd suspect something amiss with the weighing first.

[edgarspencer]

Gary, this will clear up your confusion and you'll note that I edited my post to say 'wouldn't '. I am forever messing that word and I guess it's my stinking slow typing fingers trying to keep up with my lightning fast brain.

[Gerald McPherson]

I reweighed the barrels and I was mistaken. There is about 6 ounces difference. My apologizes to all who commented. I need a memory pill. I don't buy a gun if I am concerned about the wall thickness although I have seen others shoot some that I wouldn't.

[Garry L Gordon]

Gary, this will clear up your confusion and you'll note that I edited my post to say 'wouldn't '. I am forever messing that word and I guess it's my stinking slow typing fingers trying to keep up with my lightning fast brain.

Edgar, am I glad you did this! I do it all the time (except my brain is molasses slow) and it's nice to know I'm not alone. So, what would you think is up with Gerald's barrels? I envision an order where the person wanted a gun to shoot pigeons or, maybe, ducks and needed a heavier than normal gun.

Gerald, any idea from your end? I'd like to know more about your gun and it's weight.

[Garry L Gordon]

I reweighed the barrels and I was mistaken. There is about 6 ounces difference. My apologizes to all who commented. I need a memory pill. I don't buy a gun if I am concerned about the wall thickness although I have seen others shoot some that I wouldn't.

Thanks for clearing this up. I'm still curious what the unstruck barrel weight of your gun's barrels is. I don't mean to pester you, I'm just really intrigued by the barrel striking process at Parker Bros.

[Gerald McPherson]

Sorry to take so long but scale battery needed to be replaced. Gh Damascus marked 3 12 weighs 3 5. Serial 117242. Total weight is 7 5. Another GH Damascus marked 3 12 weighs 3 10. Serial 88110. Total weight is 7 11. Both are 30 inch. Both are 1 1/2 frames. Can't say how accurate my scales are but it has new batteries now.

[Gerald McPherson]

Another VH marked 3 8 weighs 3 5. Total weight 7 10. Serial 169780, 26 inch on a 1 1/2 frame.

[Garry L Gordon]

Sorry to take so long but scale battery needed to be replaced. Gh Damascus marked 3 12 weighs 3 5. Serial 117242. Total weight is 7 5. Another GH Damascus marked 3 12 weighs 3 10. Serial 88110. Total weight is 7 11. Both are 30 inch. Both are 1 1/2 frames. Can't say how accurate my scales are but it has new batteries now.

Thanks, Gerald. Your weight differentials (the smaller ones) certainly seem to be anomalies to the article I read (after searching this site...and Parker Pages) that concluded the .88 mark. That was obviously the result of averaging, but still, if that .88 conclusion is correct, it makes one ponder. Do you have letters on # 88110? If so, anything unusual, or noted about the desired weight of the gun ordered?

I appreciate your contributions to this thread. I think at the very least it confirms that Parker may have mass produced guns, but in reality, there was enough hand work (at least in the barrel striking) to compete with the notion of handmade guns. I think those of us who know and love Parkers don't find this as anything new...but it still is intriguing. I wonder if there is similar comparison data for, say, Fox guns...

[Gerald McPherson]

I do not have a letter however the gun patterns very full. If I decide to keep it I may use it for turkeys.

[Garry L Gordon]

Just a follow-up and conclusion of sorts. I got the letter on the gun that started this thread. The letter states the records show the gun to weigh 7 lbs. So this gun appears to be untouched...and to be a very light 30 inch gun (again, by my scale it weighs just slightly over 7 lbs.). The amount of weight struck from the original unstruck and stamped weight is more than any other gun I can account for, and again attests (to me, at least) how much hand work went into these "mass produced" guns.

I'd still be interested in learning about other 30 inch Damascus barrel weights as low as on this gun or with significant differences in the unstruck and final weight.

[Rich Anderson]

I'm not much of a 12ga person and the ones I do have are all 2 frame guns with 30 or 32 inch barrels so they aren't much help but here is a comparison of two guns both O frames with 30 inch Damascus barrels.

GHE 16 total gun weight is just shy of 7.5 lbs. Unstruck barrel weight 3.1 lbs.
GH 20 total gun weight 6.5 lbs., unstruck barrel weight 3.6 lbs. There is only a half pound difference in barrel weight between these two guns but a pound in overall weight.

I think the majority of the difference in weight is the combination of factors such as stock configuration,splinter vs BTF, straight grip or pistol grip, Skelton butt or pad. Ejectors will add a small amount of weight as well. Wood density also comes into play.

The GHE is a straight stock, skeleton butt and BTF. The GH is a pistol grip, splinter forearm and factory butt plate.

The 16 weighs a half pound more than your 12 and the 20 is a half pound less.

[Garry L Gordon]

I think the majority of the difference in weight is the combination of factors such as stock configuration,splinter vs BTF, straight grip or pistol grip, Skelton butt or pad. Ejectors will add a small amount of weight as well. Wood density also comes into play.

The GHE is a straight stock, skeleton butt and BTF. The GH is a pistol grip, splinter forearm and factory butt plate.


Hey, Rich,

Thanks for responding. All of the variables contributing to final weight are part of the puzzle, as you well point out. Based on the kind of customization Parker would do for customers, I can imagine that they (Parker craftsmen) might, for example, choose less dense/lighter wood to get to a target weight. I'm looking at the barrel striking process as my focus. My 12 has just over 8 ounces taken off from the unstruck/stamped weight. I have not seen that much weight come off original barrels, and the quality control article I found in Parker Pages suggests about 12% is the average. Bottom line: this GH 12 weighs and handles like a 16 apparently by design. To me it reasserts the customization one could get when ordering even one of the lower grade offerings.

BTW, I prefer 16s also. A straight grip GH like yours I'll bet is a pleasure to carry and shoot.

[Rich Anderson]

In all honesty I don't hunt with the GHE straight grip 16. I'm to old and to fat lug a 7.5 lb. gun through the grouse coverts. I much prefer the sub 6lb guns and while admittedly not a 12ga fan I am looking forward to hunting with a British "Light Game Gun" with some 2 inch RST paper shells this fall.

[Garry L Gordon]

In all honesty I don't hunt with the GHE straight grip 16. I'm to old and to fat lug a 7.5 lb. gun through the grouse coverts. I much prefer the sub 6lb guns and while admittedly not a 12ga fan I am looking forward to hunting with a British "Light Game Gun" with some 2 inch RST paper shells this fall.

Rich,

I'm getting to the too old, too fat point myself. I've always liked lighter guns. When you are a wild quail hunter in Northern Missouri, you walk a heck-of-a lot more than you shoot. I've latched onto 16s for this. I have Fox and Parker 16s that weigh in at under 6 lbs. My favorite gun to carry for quail is a 130 year old Cogswell and Harrison back action hammer gun with 30 inch Damascus barrels. It weighs 5 lbs. 13 ounces. I also have a Whistler 12 that is a smidgen less than 6 lbs, and my grouse gun is a little Dickson box lock (28 gauge) that weighs 5 lbs 3 oz. So, I too enjoy carrying light. I know lots of the folks on the site like to shoot clays and shoot a great deal, but for me, walking as much as I do (and as much as I can), the lighter the gun, the better. I shoot about the same with a light gun as I do with one that's heavier (as my 30-plus years of records show), but my tendinitis is better carrying a sub-6 gun. ;-)

I hope you enjoy your light loads and English gun. Thanks again for sharing your guns' weights. It was my quest for lighter Parkers that started this thread in the first place.

Take care!

[Mark Landskov]

I have a 1907 vintage GH 12, on a 1-1/2 frame, with 30 inch D3 Damascus barrels. Unstruck weight is 3-14. My little scale shows 3-4 as the final weight. According to the letter, my gun weighed 7-4 when shipped. My scale showed 7-3. Is the one ounce difference from dry wood, or barrel honing? Using snap gages, at about 8 inches from the breech, the bores measure .731". Unfortunately, my Manson gage reads .030" and .036" at 9 inches from the breech. Were they that thin when new? I dunno.

[Garry L Gordon]

I have a 1907 vintage GH 12, on a 1-1/2 frame, with 30 inch D3 Damascus barrels. Unstruck weight is 3-14. My little scale shows 3-4 as the final weight. According to the letter, my gun weighed 7-4 when shipped. My scale showed 7-3. Is the one ounce difference from dry wood, or barrel honing? Using snap gages, at about 8 inches from the breech, the bores measure .731". Unfortunately, my Manson gage reads .030" and .036" at 9 inches from the breech. Were they that thin when new? I dunno.

Mark,

Your 10 ounce differential is the record so far! :bowdown: Too bad we'll never be able to answer your question about your gun's weight differential. On the other hand, the unanswered questions only add to the pleasure of owning and shooting old guns, eh? Thanks for contributing this information.