Unusual A grade

[John Allen]

There is a very unusual A grade 12 just listed on gunbroker.It is item 643341337.It is a pigeon gun with 30" Whitworth barrels,straight stock,and no engraving.The gun is listed in the Parker Story and matches the configuration. The current bid is $2025 with 6 days left.A real oddball.It will be interesting to see what it sells for.

[Tim Thomas]

Well, that changed in a hurry, it's now $3625.

[John Allen]

It should bring a high price.It is a rare gun.I don't understand ordering an A grade and not having it engraved.That to me is one of the main reasons to get a higher grade gun.

[Tim Thomas]

Yes very odd, I wonder if the original sales price would have been adjusted by Parker to reflect that.

[Bill Murphy]

My unengraved CH grade was credited 25% for no engraving and D grade wood. $37.50 to be exact.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, do you know the story behind our friend's BH that also has no engraving? It's the one with the ( :nono: ) replacement wood.

Could these three have been ordered by the same guy?... all high grades - all without engraving - all pretty close to each other... That's a pretty eccentric MO

The ABC's of Parkers with no engraving!






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[David Noble]

That's a great gun but the lack of engraving will greatly effect the value, IMHO.
Would anybody here buy that and then have it engraved? I wouldn't.
Will still bring a big price though, I'm sure.

[Rich Anderson]

I don't understand why someone would order a high grade gun with no engraving other than possibly nicer wood. If that were the case why not buy a VH/VHE then upgrade to stock?

Purdey made a gun with no engraving, it was called a Funeral gun, blued receiver no embellishment's. You just never know what's in the mind of a gun buyer:rotf:

[bruce a lyons]

S/N is 103557. Looks like Parker produced 4 grade 7s in a row. 557-560. Could these have been produced for their pro shooters?

[Dave Noreen]

Much finer finish and adjustment of the locks and the bolting, higher grade wood, nicer checkering, the high grade profiling of the receiver and the Whitworth barrels.

I've seen one and found records of other Ansley H. Fox doubles ordered with no engraving. One clearly specified "not even a mark."

[Brian Dudley]

Neat gun. And with some condition too. A good one for thise who collect and appreciate the odd ones that the factory made on request.

[Craig Larter]

It is a very interesting gun in my opinion, it is a Grade 7 so a AAHE not a AHE.

[bruce a lyons]

Gun does not appear to have ejectors.

[Brian Dudley]

Even the rib extention is un-engraved.

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, the three guns you mention do not seem to have any connection.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, do you have research data on the CH and the BH?





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[Bill Murphy]

The CH was sent to an Army officer in the wild frontier, the Dakotas. The BH was well into the "no order book" era. Absolutely no connection among the three.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Bill - I guess there were a few eccentrics in those days, just as there are today. There's just no accounting for some people's tastes.

Did anybody notice if the subject gun has the gold grip cap insert or the gold oval in the toe line?

So the level of wood, checkering, barrels, and frame sculpting make this gun a Grade 7... nothing else, because the internals do not differ from those of a VH but for a bit of polishing.

It's a very nice gun and a unique AA but to my taste it sure is missing something.





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[Brian Dudley]

Now Dean... dont you know that the type of steel is what makes the grade of the gun? At least that is how PB advertised it.

I would be curious if there was a discount for no engraving. I have seen that on a letter for a DH that had no engraving.

The engraving dept got a break on this one. Well, more like they got to move onto the next gun in line.

[Paul Ehlers]

Another interesting feature on this one is it has a safety.

Most of the current myth & legend has it that Pigeon guns didn't have safeties. Now we see this one which is marked Pigeon Gun on the rib & it has a safety. I wonder if it's auto-setting?

[Brian Dudley]

I beleive all of the AAH geades were considered "pigeon guns", regardless of configuration. ??? Correct me if i am wrong.

[Ed Blake]

Or any gun you that's ever shot at a pigeon.

[Kevin McCormack]

No; there are many smallbore AAHs out there. Another caveat: not every gun built with high stock dimensions, tight bores, no safety and without ejectors can be automatically assumed to be a "pigeon gun." But the "never say never" axiom rules. Unless the Stock or Order Books specifically mentions pigeon or trap shooting (e.g,.percent pattern required with specific brand and/or size shot), it is just another long barreled tight choked gun. Absent documentation, I usually rely on "the test of the duck"; if it walks, swims, and flies like a duck, it is pretty safe to say it is at least a member of the Anseriformes.

[George M. Purtill]

Good point Kevin. Probably when first introduced the Grade 7 was a Pigeon Gun but that evolved.
I agree with Dean- there is something missing here.

[Ian Byrkit]

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[Chuck Bishop]

Since we don't know what the rib inscription reads, I can tell you that the price list for that time frame lists it as a A.A.H. Pigeon Gun and that's how I would write up the letter.

[Jim DiSpagno]

Chuck, it reads Parker Bros makers Meridan Conn Whitworth Steel

[Jean Swanson]

Check page 328 & 329 in the Parker Story---an AH ---grade 7 with Pigeon Gun engraved on the rib, with a safty. I once owned this gun

[Ian Byrkit]

Nice gun Allan, that is as good as they get!

[edgarspencer]

I once owned this gun:bowdown: This, while news to me, isn't remotely surprising. Mr. Swanson is more "Mr. Parker" than most give him credit. Very much a real 'New Englander'.
I have to agree with the general consensus, This gun is an anachronism of the first order. Whitworth barrels, Beaded bolsters, fully checkered ala AAH, and yet nothing in the way of the embellishments we love. Notice the fore end tip? It's almost as if there was a memo sent out that said "No Engraving Allowed" Reminds me of Fords made for the Mennonites; No Chrome.

[Jay Oliver]

The more I look at the gun the more I like it. It's like some wanted the best materials but something with a utilitarian look. You could almost hear someone say "Don't ruin this gun with any of your fancy engraving..." It will be interesting to see what it is sells for its already just over $8k. Thanks for sharing, that is a nice and different gun...

[David Noble]

Since we don't know what the rib inscription reads, I can tell you that the price list for that time frame lists it as a A.A.H. Pigeon Gun and that's how I would write up the letter.

Second picture in the auction listing:

[Chuck Bishop]

David, thanks for zooming in on that rib inscription. I'm right again :bowdown: :whistle::rotf:

[Russ Jackson]

I agree with Jay but I loved it the minute I seen it ,I ran across it a few hours after it was posted and ran for my Parker Books !!!!!!!!! Really a cool gun in my opinion but I always lean toward the unusual !

[Dave Workman]

If anyone needs more info let me know. The owners daughter is selling it to pay for her fathers Medical bills. It is her father's shotgun he has Alzheimer's. Thus we have no history on it. I have added a lot of photos and information since I first listed it. Please take a second look if you haven't.

[Paul Ehlers]

Since we don't know what the rib inscription reads, I can tell you that the price list for that time frame lists it as a A.A.H. Pigeon Gun and that's how I would write up the letter.

When I made my original post. I could easily see the Pigeon Gun inscription on the top rib in the GB pictures.

[Chuck Bishop]

Well good for you!

[edgarspencer]

Well good for you!

touchy touchy. That Edgarphobia getting to you? Have a glass of wine Chucky, it's only a few weeks till Hausmanns

[Dean Romig]

The owners daughter is selling it to pay for her fathers Medical bills. It is her father's shotgun he has Alzheimer's.



My most sincere sympathy for the owner's daughter and the entire family.
My Dad suffered for almost ten years with that terrible affliction.






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[legh higgins]

looks like a 3 frame...manly.

[David Noble]

The owners daughter is selling it to pay for her fathers Medical bills. It is her father's shotgun he has Alzheimer's. Thus we have no history on it.
God bless her and her father. I hope this gun brings every dollar that it is worth.
It may not be as beautiful to look at as most AAH's but it is every bit as rare and unique as any of them.

[Reggie Bishop]

The auction closed $16,625.00. I don't know whether to think that the price was fair or it was a bargain.

[Dean Romig]

$16,625.00. I don't know whether to think that the price was fair or it was a bargain.


Well Somebody thought it was a fair price and a couple of others were right behind him.
An awful lot of Parker people go to that website to find a "diamond" in a big mine full of lumps of coal. Somebody got lucky on this one.






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[Craig Larter]

It's worth what it sold for but my guess was 20K. Very cool gun.

[Brett Hoop]

The first thought I had when seeing the photos of this gun were it looks like an Amish A Grade. But it still exudes the character and soulfulness of a high grade Parker. Congrats to the new owner! I would love to have had it.

[Bill Murphy]

Not all Grade 7 guns had engine turned flat surfaces. I don't know why, because I have not seen a Parker Brothers order with any mention of this feature.

[Russ Jackson]

About six weeks I took a big chunk of my " Gun Money " and bought a fairly new High Lift / Back Hoe combination or I would have given " Sold Cheap " a few more bids to chase ! I don't know why but I really liked this gun ,just bad timing for me ! Congrats to the new buyer ,hopefully he is one of us !!!!!!!!:)

[Bill Murphy]

Russ, I figured that this gun would heat you up if it were a grouse gun. Of course, a grouse gun would be a bit higher up on the bidding scale.

[Russ Jackson]

Bill ,Isn't this AAH just a wonderful gun , I seem to remember past discussions with you that you also like the unusual ! I would like to read the letter on it ,I wonder if it was shipped with the Pad instead of the usual Skeleton plate ?

[Bill Murphy]

I doubt that the pad would show up in the order. However, the leather covering is from way back.

[Bill Murphy]

I have Kevin McCormack's brother, Tom, to thank for finding my "unengraved" CH grade. The three of us were at a VA gun show when Tom mentioned that he had seen a nice "Trojan" on a table at a fair price, $800 as I recall. I wandered over and saw the unengraved gun with skeleton butt on an English Walnut straight grip stock. The rib stamp was Acme Steel. Nice gun to say the least. At another VA show, I told Tom about a fairly nice Damascus GH on a table. He went over and paid about $225 for what turned out to be a GH with brown Parker Special Steel barrels. It turned out to be a scarce short barreled #1 frame. I guess that was my payback. Oh well, we're still friends.

[Bill Murphy]

According to Chuck, the original owner was credited $25.00 for the engraving delete. I can make no sense of that figure. My CH was credited $37.50 for the engraving delete, 25% according to the letter on that gun.

[Dean Romig]

At the time of production of the two guns in question, might the possibility of a differential in the rate of pay for a top engraver explain the difference in dollars credited?





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[Bill Murphy]

I don't think there is any period in time that $25.00 would buy the engraving on a $400.00 Parker. I think this customer just didn't get a very good deal.

[Chuck Bishop]

I went back and checked the original order to make sure I didn't make a mistake (just ask Egger, I do make mistakes) that the 25 was a dollar value and not a percentage. A 25% discount would make more sense. When they wrote up the order, at the far right of the order they have the gun at 400 then under it 25 then subtracted for a total of 375 so it's a dollar value not a percentage discount.

[John Allen]

Don't forget that in those days craftsmen were not paid nearly as much relatively as they are today.Also,in terms of manufacturing costs,engraving and wood are two of the least expensive components of the gun.The real dollar value is in the barrels and lockwork.

[Dean Romig]

I don't think there is any period in time that $25.00 would buy the engraving on a $400.00 Parker. I think this customer just didn't get a very good deal.

We have always had the option to agree to the terms of a contract, or not to agree with the terms. Tha buyer, in the case of the $25 credit, apparently agreed to it. He accepted the 'deal' and had no complaint.





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[Bill Murphy]

The person who ordered the gun was filthy rich, and I guess he didn't care about the price.

[Russ Jackson]

I don't believe you could have "Parker Bros. " engraved for $25.00 !!!!!!!It's funny ,when you look at the gun in the advertised photos you may not realize it's an " AAH " immediately but you can sure tell it is not a standard V Grade !!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder if the lines of the receiver are more rounded or defined than an "Average " Parker ? ,it looked very sleek and perfected ,I would love to see a picture up against a VH Grade just to really get a look at the subtle differences ! It sure is a Gem !

[Bill Murphy]

I thought I would update this interesting thread. I think Russ Jackson knows who bought the gun. I confess. The gun turned out to be owned by Dean Sage, a famous sportsman, author, and all around multi millionaire in the late 1800's. Google him for some fantastic stories about fishing in New Brunswick and Sage's private fishing grounds there. The Albany Parker guy only owned his gun for a year before his death in 1902. The gun is wonderful, with a smear of case color on the floorplate and everything else obviously carefully field used. The stock finish is original, never refinished in 118 years. The "no engraving" on the order was apparently disregarded by the makers, because the sides of the safety button are neatly engraved in scroll, but almost invisible. Mr. Sage probably never noticed this little touch. My CH, made a few years later, adheres to the "no engraving" order, with only Parker Brothers engraved on the side of the action, no sneaky engraved parts visible. The gun was apparently made with a skeleton buttplate because the very tip of the inletting is visible at the end of the wood at the heel. The length of pull with pad is 14 1/4", so reinstalling a skeleton buttplate would make the stock very short, probably 13 1/8 or so. The old leather covered Jostam pad will stay put. There is no information on the fate of the gun after 1902, but probably Dean Sage's brother took it over. The gun shows absolutely no sign of abuse, and even the barrel blue is about 97%. It's not an easy gun to shoot because of a heavy trigger pull in the right barrel. It will probably be just right for our Friday morning Chinese Skeet events, using the left barrel only. This was quite an interesting thread, with both positive and negative comments about the gun and the price realized. I appreciate my friend Craig Larter's comment that the gun is probably worth a few thousand dollars more than the final bid. I agree with him entirely. Thanks to our members for an interesting conversation. A special "Thanks" to John Allen for outing the gunbroker ad for us. Bill Murphy

[Daniel G Rainey]

My first Parker was PH with twist barrels that was shipped May 24, 1916 at a cost of $ 47.75. I think that cost of PH was $27.00. The purchaser liked great wood. Often wondered why not add a few dollars more and buy 2 PH guns without the upgraded wood.

[Dave Noreen]

I think that cost of PH was $27.00.

Huh? From its introduction in 1890, until WW-I inflation set in, the List Price of a PH-Grade was $65.00 --

74410

74411

According to a 1906, Wm. Read & Sons catalog, the actual Net Price of a PH-Grade was $48.75, as was the price in the 1902 Sear, Roebuck & Co. catalog. On the West Coast, the 1907 Wm. H. Hoegee Co. catalog shows the PH-Grade with a list price of $65 and a Net Price of $50.

[Bill Murphy]

TTT