DROP IN VALUE FOR OPENED CHOKES

[Jerry Harlow]

I know cut barrels are a killer but what percentage would you knock off for opened chokes. Looked at a VH 16 on a 0 frame but the chokes were cylinder (.001) and I.C. (.006). Barrel length is correct from the book. I do not suspect they left the factory this way since the wall thickness on the right was .020 all the way.

Also, the bores were .676 all the way in both barrels, which I thought was quite large for a 16. Opinions welcomed.

[Jim DiSpagno]

Get a letter even if you don't buy it. I was looking at a grade 2 Hammergun that had cyl and I'm choked but original length barrels. Letter stated it was ordered that way. Proved to be a good purchase after all. Jim

[Jerry Harlow]

Get a letter even if you don't buy it. I was looking at a grade 2 Hammergun that had cyl and I'm choked but original length barrels. Letter stated it was ordered that way. Proved to be a good purchase after all. Jim

I intend to do that if Chuck is not so busy and the info is available. I only have a 24 hour window to purchase, but it would have been an ideal bird gun so I'm hoping it was ordered that way. If not, it needs a discount. Not 50% as cut barrels would in my opinion, but how much is the question.

[Jim DiSpagno]

20-25% IMHO only because to resell, you want to try to break even

[Bob Jurewicz]

I'd be more concerned about the .676" bore diameter. Normal is .662-.665". Considerable honing there. Value reduction in my opinion is significant, especially with the thin .020" WT.
Bob Jurewicz

[Brian Dudley]

Unless a letter says otherwise or the work was done poorly, who says they are opened?

I personally believe that opened chokes dont effect value all that much.

[Jerry Harlow]

The bores are a perfect .676 in both barrels with no choke in the right and the left has choke for four inches. The overbore and cylinder in the right have me concerned.

[Bob Jurewicz]

I just measured 2 Parker VH 16 GA O Frames.
.662/.664"
.664/.665"
The other thing about the Cylinder choking is that all guns I have had that lettered as with a Cyl choked barrel showed around .006" of constriction in that barrel.
Bob Jurewicz

[John Campbell]

... I do not suspect they left the factory this way since the wall thickness on the right was .020 all the way...

Perhaps you were not entirely accurate in this statement? "All the way" from where to where? If the walls measure .020 within the first 18 inches from the breech, you should be VERY concerned. Beyond that point, you might get away with it. Maybe.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

An O frame 16 VH would be a perfect upland bird gun in cyl/IC. I have 2 parkers with factory letters chokes ordered at cyl/mod. Are you wanting the gun to hunt with?

[Jerry Harlow]

Perhaps you were not entirely accurate in this statement? "All the way" from where to where? If the walls measure .020 within the first 18 inches from the breech, you should be VERY concerned. Beyond that point, you might get away with it. Maybe.

I was referring to "all the way" in the typical 3 to 4 inches of choke area at the muzzle. The left barrel which had some choke remaining (.006) measured about .030 in the typical choke area. The .676 bore diameter tells me they have been honed.

Again, as I said "I do not suspect they left the factory this way."

[Garry L Gordon]

Unless a letter says otherwise or the work was done poorly, who says they are opened?

I personally believe that opened chokes dont effect value all that much.

I have a really nice GH 16, O frame. It has no choke in the right barrel. The letter confirms it was ordered that way. My thanks to the original owner from the late 19th C.!! Nice to find them as ordered...the way you want them.

[Rich Anderson]

I think it depends on the gun. If the chokes were opened on the gun you describe I wouldn't be as concerned as say a 32 inch target gun that was F/F is now opened to something else. With the gun you describe I'd be much more concerned with the bore diameter. There are plenty of VH/VHE 16's available and the O frame isn't always lighter than a #1 frame.

[Bob Jurewicz]

0 Frame 16 GA guns should be 6-8 oz lighter than 1 Frame guns. That has been my experience.
I have 1's and 0's sitting side by side in the safe and the O's look noticeably smaller.
Bob Jurewicz

[Garry L Gordon]

0 Frame 16 GA guns should be 6-8 oz lighter than 1 Frame guns. That has been my experience.
I have 1's and 0's sitting side by side in the safe and the O's look noticeably smaller.
Bob Jurewicz

The slim frame of my GH is what attracted me to it. It was sitting amid several other 16s and was noticeably smaller. It is just under the 6lbs. 8oz. weight you mention (6 lbs. 4 oz.). I like my shotguns light...at least when I'm following bird dogs.

[Rich Anderson]

Bob I have an 0 frame 16 that is considerably heavier than a couple of 1 frame 16's.

[Mike Poindexter]

The 0 frames are, by definition, smaller than the 1 frames. Undisputed. The guns they are on are not, however, always lighter than their 1 frame counterparts. Barrel weight and stock variance play a role too.

[Garry L Gordon]

The 0 frames are, by definition, smaller than the 1 frames. Undisputed. The guns they are on are not, however, always lighter than their 1 frame counterparts. Barrel weight and stock variance play a role too.

Agreed, but when you can find a 0 frame that is lightweight, it's a jewell. A nicely balanced 16 gauge is a delight no matter it's grade or frame size. If you can point it "right," it will take wild quail like nobody's business...and is great to look at between coveys.

[Dean Romig]

If I had a nice Parker 20 or 28 gauge with 26" barrels and F/F chokes that was pretty useless to me for grouse and woodcock in tight cover and spreader loads only gave me the equivalent of Mod/Mod at best, and I chose to open the chokes to Skeet/Skeet or Skeet/LtMod would I be devaluing the gun or making it more of my value for my purposes? Granted, a letter would show F/F but it isn't a 90% gun in anyone's definition anyway.





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[Garry L Gordon]

If I had a nice Parker 20 or 28 gauge with 26" barrels and F/F chokes that was pretty useless to me for grouse and woodcock in tight cover and spreader loads only gave me the equivalent of Mod/Mod at best, and I chose to open the chokes to Skeet/Skeet or Skeet/LtMod would I be devaluing the gun or making it more of my value for my purposes? Granted, a letter would show F/F but it isn't a 90% gun in anyone's definition anyway.
.

And the funny thing is that if we had a factory record that the gun had been returned to have the chokes opened in the past, we would value the gun highly. There's great irony in collecting. Things evolve. We've all seen the rise in value of Damascus barrels, and now I see restored/reconditioned guns by certain gunsmiths are being valued well. The guns are gems, and we value what they hold for us as our link to the past.

[Rich Anderson]

If I had a nice Parker 20 or 28 gauge with 26" barrels and F/F chokes that was pretty useless to me for grouse and woodcock in tight cover and spreader loads only gave me the equivalent of Mod/Mod at best, and I chose to open the chokes to Skeet/Skeet or Skeet/LtMod would I be devaluing the gun or making it more of my value for my purposes? Granted, a letter would show F/F but it isn't a 90% gun in anyone's definition anyway.

To a purist it would probably devalue the gun but to the majority of people that would use the gun it would probably be considered beneficial. It would definitely make the gun more useable for you and your applications for it and it's YOUR gun so enjoy it the way you want it.

[Jerry Harlow]

And the funny thing is that if we had a factory record that the gun had been returned to have the chokes opened in the past, we would value the gun highly. There's great irony in collecting. Things evolve. We've all seen the rise in value of Damascus barrels, and now I see restored/reconditioned guns by certain gunsmiths are being valued well. The guns are gems, and we value what they hold for us as our link to the past.

I believe the reason we would value it much more if the gun had been returned to Parker to have the chokes opened is that we would know it was done correctly, just as it would have if it left the factory. We can't be sure of all of the thousands of guns that were opened by other gunsmiths, many not as careful as Parker would have been with their very long choking system that we see in their barrels. The gun I was looking at, having been honed from .662 to .676 in 16 gauge was worrisome to me. Obviously not done by Parker. The .007 removed from the barrels only left .020 m.w.t. on the right barrel/cylinder side, which by the way is the choke with which it left the Parker factory.

[Garry L Gordon]

Obviously not done by Parker. The .007 removed from the barrels only left .020 m.w.t. on the right barrel/cylinder side, which by the way is the choke with which it left the Parker factory.

I don't disagree with any of this sentiment, it's just that I still think that if you sent your tightly choked Parker to a reputable choke expert today (you pick, Briley? whoever), and documented it well, it would not be as valued by as many as it would (as you well note, Jerry) if it had been done in the past (and documented) by Parker. Let's face it, it's significantly the mystic of Parker that we care about...and/or the nostalgia for a time past...or whatever you believe motivates people to collect and value things. The idea that a documented change of originality by a reputable source in the past makes a gun functionally different from one done just as well by a reputable source is interesting so say the least.

A great thread!

[Dave Suponski]

Garry, One of the true values of The Parker Gun is the wonderful ogee choke found in factory original guns. I just develop loads that shoot well in my Parkers rather than opening those great chokes up. Besides shooting a full choked gun just makes you a better shot.

[Rich Anderson]

I agree completely Dave but just what are ogee chokes?:rotf::rotf::rotf:

[Garry L Gordon]

Garry, One of the true values of The Parker Gun is the wonderful ogee choke found in factory original guns. I just develop loads that shoot well in my Parkers rather than opening those great chokes up. Besides shooting a full choked gun just makes you a better shot.

I'm absolutely not advocating opening the chokes in an original Parker (but if someone owns the gun, who am I to say?), or disputing the very effective chokes that Parker bored for loads of the day. My comments are more about how we regard the guns and our concept of originality. IF Parker Bros. were still in business today, I wonder if their guns would be choked as tightly as they were "back then?" I think part of the interest in collecting and shooting these great guns is developing loads to make them shoot their best. Dave, your expertise in creating loads is a testament to your regard for the guns.

Post some of your best loads for tightly choked (original) Parkers -- especially in 16 gauge -- and I'll give them a try. I must tell you, though, I seriously doubt that it will make ME a better shot...but it's worth a try. My bird dogs will thank you if it works.;-)

[Dave Suponski]

Rich, If I can find Austins profile graph of Parker chokes I will post it here.

Garry, Try this one for your tight choked 16 gauge. Remington game load hull, 16.5 grains SR 7625 (soon to change to Unique), Winchester 209 primer,Claybuster CBO16 gauge wad(blue) 1oz. shot and a Polywad 20 gauge spreader insert on top of the shot. Yes I did say 20 spreader insert. Hope this is of some help. The thing I discovered about making speaders is that speed is very important. If they are too fast the pattern will be terrible.

[Garry L Gordon]

Garry, Try this one for your tight choked 16 gauge. Remington game load hull, 16.5 grains SR 7625 (soon to change to Unique), Winchester 209 primer,Claybuster CBO16 gauge wad(blue) 1oz. shot and a Polywad 20 gauge spreader insert on top of the shot. Yes I did say 20 spreader insert. Hope this is of some help. The thing I discovered about making speaders is that speed is very important. If they are too fast the pattern will be terrible.

Thanks so much! I think I have all of the components but the wads, so I'll get some. Any idea what the pressure range for this load is? Would it be suitable for a Damascus-barreled Parker?

[Dean Romig]

I agree completely Dave but just what are ogee chokes?:rotf::rotf::rotf:


Rich, I have a LOT of Austin's charts and graphs that he plotted on chambers, cone tapers, bore measurements, and chokes - which Austin determined to be 'ogee' in shape.

"A double curve with the shape of an elongated S."

"Shaped somewhat like an S, consisting of two arcs that curve in opposite senses, so that the ends are parallel. It is a kind of sigmoid curve."

An 'ogee' choke profile is unlike the chokes cut by most other shotgun makers in that theirs is a 'cone' with a definite shoulder at the end of a straight walled tube and without the terminal 1/4" - 3/8" parallel walled section at the very muzzle that Parker chokes usually had.

Is that clear?.....I tried to be.






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[Dave Suponski]

Here ya go Rich,

[Dave Suponski]

Garry, Right around 8000 psi. It very hard to get pressures much lower than that and get a complete burn. Remember the smaller the bore the higher the pressure. This load I gave you is a joy to shoot.

[Garry L Gordon]

Garry, Right around 8000 psi. It very hard to get pressures much lower than that and get a complete burn. Remember the smaller the bore the higher the pressure. This load I gave you is a joy to shoot.

Dave,

Many thanks! I've order the wads and will give this load a try. I appreciate your time in helping me.

[Rich Anderson]

Gary I shoot a similar load in my 16's both fluid steel and Damascus with no problem. SR 7625 has been discontinued but if it changes to Unique be sure to work up gradually as the two powders might have different burn rates.

Dave & Dean thanks for the choke info. In all honesty I was just giving Dave a hard time because I thought he was having a senior moment with his grammar:) It's good to learn something new thanks:bowdown:

[Garry L Gordon]

Gary I shoot a similar load in my 16's both fluid steel and Damascus with no problem. SR 7625 has been discontinued but if it changes to Unique be sure to work up gradually as the two powders might have different burn rates.

Rich,

Thanks! I have some SR 7625, so I'm good for the near future. I don't quite understand the comment "if it changes to Unique." Sorry to be slow-witted (I know I am, my wife tells me all the time!). Are you saying that I might substitute Unique for the 7625, or is the manufacturer suggesting this...or whoever developed the load is suggesting it? I don't have the capability to monitor pressures, so I'm a bit confused about this.

[Rich Anderson]

In Dave's post he mentioned using SR7625 but that it was changing to Unique as 7625 has been discontinued. When substituting powders even though one supposedly replaces another it's best to work up gradually.

[Garry L Gordon]

In Dave's post he mentioned using SR7625 but that it was changing to Unique as 7625 has been discontinued. When substituting powders even though one supposedly replaces another it's best to work up gradually.

Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying.

[Jerry Harlow]

Interesting comments on powder burn rates:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_burn_rate.htm

Why Powder Burn Rate Is Meaningless By Randy Wakeman

Perhaps you have looked at various "Burn Rate Charts" and wondered what good they are. Well, you have good reason to wonder. Burn rate charts seldom agree. There is no specific meaning for "burn rate," so it shouldn't surprise us that the numbers don't agree. They mean nothing by themselves.

What amateurs call burn rate is not used by professional ballisticians to develop loads. The actual term closest to burn rate used in interior ballistics is "Relative Quickness."

Relative quickness is defined by "closed bomb tests," which quantify pressure rise in a sealed container. However, professional ballisticians do not use relative quickness for load development, either. A closed bomb relative quickness value does not translate into any type of value outside of that 'closed bomb' test. Powder performance varies widely by actual application. Relative quickness is one of several preliminary considerations when assessing a powder's suitability for a particular application by ballistics, but nothing more than that.

Relative quickness does not tell use the physical shape of a powder, its composition, or the types of coatings. It cannot tell us whether a powder is single-based, double based, or triple based. It does not tell us the heat of explosion, the progressive / degressive gas creation values, the ignition characteristics, and so forth. There is no way to translate a double-based powder performance into a single-based powder performance level with any accuracy. Even further, relative quickness does not define the erosiveness of a powder, the residue left by a powder, its ability to meter properly; and on it goes.

Energy content of nitrocellulose varies by manufacturer. It varies by the amount of nitrogen in the nitrocellulose. The more nitrogen, the more gas a powder can make. Once you have a specific type of nitrocellulose the energy content is further controlled by the addition of nitroglycerin, which is basically what constitutes a double-based powder. Now you have further considerations, as nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin do not behave the same way as temperature changes. The amount of nitro percentage varies by powder to powder, and with it its performance in a specific application.

All this combines to make burn rate charts something to ignore, or to view with very little importance placed on them. Professional ballisticians do not use them at all, simply because they have no particular meaning. Ping-Pong balls are nitrocellulose, but not many of us would bother cutting them up and attempting to use them in a firearm.

[Russell E. Cleary]

The "go ahead and open the chokes, it's your gun", versus the "keep it original" argument is surely a never-ending debate. But, I enjoy following it wherever it leads. The battle lines may be irreconcilable, but that does not prevent me from learning something new each time the topic is brought up.

This may stir things further: Spreader loads can compensate for all the older, tightly-choked Parker guns, but, admittedly only minimally -- given that the shot charge of a modified-equivalent may not be open enough for the grouse woods. But, once you open the chokes, is there any going back? Do you shift to "constrictor" loads, after opening up your factory-choked gun, if later in life you get a chance to hunt the broad expanses of the American West for upland game where longer shots are the norm?

REC

[Dean Romig]

That's an intriguing concept - "constrictor" loads. Is there such a load available, or a 'component' that will allow us to load our own?





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[Garry L Gordon]

if later in life you get a chance to hunt the broad expanses of the American West for upland game where longer shots are the norm?

REC
This is an easy one...get another gun!! (And now you have another good excuse).

[Robin Lewis]

That's an intriguing concept - "constrictor" loads. Is there such a load available, or a 'component' that will allow us to load our own?

.
When I was a kid and my dad took me to the fire hall for the annual turkey shoot, I would hear storied along those lines. A turkey shoot back then was 25 paper plates stapled to a board some yards away from the firing line. Each plate had an "x", in light pencil, somewhere near the center of the plate. Shooters would buy a position on the line for a buck or two and fire their shotgun at their designated plate. The plate with a hole nearest the "x" won a turkey.

After attending for a few years the rules changed. Shooters could not use their own shells and when they paid for a position at the line, the "official" would give them the shell they had to shoot. It seemed that someone was caught putting something in their shot shell that held the pellets together longer, placing more concentrated pellets on the plate.... giving them a better chance to win.

The talk around town was that people would put molasses, or some kind of thick goo in the shell. I have no idea if its local BS or not, but to this day, when I get back "home", they still hand out shells at turkey shoots.

[Garry L Gordon]

The talk around town was that people would put molasses, or some kind of thick goo in the shell. I have no idea if its local BS or not, but to this day, when I get back "home", they still hand out shells at turkey shoots.

Aren't the new Winchester turkey loads somewhat like the molasses concept? I thought I read that instead of dropping granular buffer in, something was poured (or injected?) into the shot. I shot a turkey on Monday with one of these loads, and I found out by the gobbler what looked like the base of whatever cushioned and surrounded the shot. It looked something like the papery material of a wasp nest. I assumed it was what the poured substance turned into that then holds the shot together for some distance from the muzzle.

Also, I don't know about constrictor loads, but I do know that you can achieve varying patterns in the same gun by altering the loads. I discovered this when patterning guns with different hand loads...and commercial loads. Some barrels "like" certain loads better than others and the change in density from one load to another was noticeable. I'm not patient enough to plot all this out, but I was able to make a cylinder choke shoot close to a modified pattern by altering the speed, size of shot, and shot itself (copper plated). I know there is nothing new here, but I've seen results that suggest you can tighten patterns (I can't say the loads were more effective!).

Robin, I like your turkey shoot anecdote. Although we did not participate in turkey shoots when I was growing up, my Dad took me to some and there was much theorizing about why someone won consistently. I also recall that when you paid your entry fee, you bought your shells also.

BTW, just curious, where is "home?"

[Gary Laudermilch]

The turkey shoots I observed in my youth saw guys showing up with guns like the bolt action Marlin goose gun with 36" barrels because they supposedly shot tighter and harder. Withing the last year I saw a shoot advertised that limited barrel length. Maybe the sponsors of the shoot wanted to make sure everyone was shooting from the same distance. Some wives tales just never die, i.e. damascus barrels.

[Jerry Harlow]

After attending for a few years the rules changed. Shooters could not use their own shells and when they paid for a position at the line, the "official" would give them the shell they had to shoot. It seemed that someone was caught putting something in their shot shell that held the pellets together longer, placing more concentrated pellets on the plate.... giving them a better chance to win.

The talk around town was that people would put molasses, or some kind of thick goo in the shell. I have no idea if its local BS or not, but to this day, when I get back "home", they still hand out shells at turkey shoots.

A guy I worked with attended a lot of turkey shoots. They were shooting Federal paper shells. He wanted an advantage over the 1 1/8 ounce #9 shells and asked if I could help. I loaded 1 1/2 ounces of #9 for him, and you could not tell by looking at the paper Federal. He would pocket the shell given to him and put my load in. Needless to say, his gun was quite loud and had a lot of recoil compared to the others. I don't know if he won but I'm sure they caught on to him.

The new Winchesters have a resin holding the shot at the back of the shot column, supposedly to keep them cushioned and keeping the shot from being deformed. I killed a turkey with the 3" shells this spring. But they only have 1 3/4 ounce compared to the 2 ounce maximum you can get in the 3". I watched a video on you tube and the Winchesters beat the Hevi-shots at 60 yards, even though less shot. Shell construction, wad, shot size, buffer do make a difference. I've found a lot of the large gauge guns shoot bigger size shot better than they do the smaller shot for some reason I don't know. I can get as many 4s in the target as I can 6s at the same distance.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=winchester+long+beard+xr+versus+hevi-shot&view=detail&mid=61A0865962FC3886163861A0865962FC38861638&FORM=VIRE

[Robin Lewis]

BTW, just curious, where is "home?"

"Home" was in Beaver county, Pennsylvania.

[John Dallas]

Years ago, I started to load 12 gauge Turkey loads, and ran some tests to compare similar #6 shot with and without "Grex". The "Grex" increased pattern density by about 25%

[Dean Romig]

Please explain Grex




.

[John Dallas]

Grex is powdered polyethylene. I thought I got it from Ballistic Products years ago, but I just checked and appears they no longer carry it

[Daniel Carter]

Tom Roster put out a booklet on long range loads some years ago. I tried some of them using 3 in. 12 ga cases, steel shot wads and buffer from precision reloading. The results were very good, used for called fox and coyote with # 2 shot. It's easier to make them shoot tighter than open them up but the various spreader from Polywad and Ballistic products work well along with the softest shot you can find.

[John Dallas]

Here's the best I can find for info on Grex

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=145058