Putting a CHE back on face with an oversized roll joint

[Brian Dudley]

Here is a process post on a job I just completed. As many of you may know, I have on hand oversized roll joints for Parker extractor and ejector guns. The installation of the proper sized joint allows for weld-free refitting of the breech.

This Rondel engraved CHE 12g. had been restored many years ago and is exceptional, however, the fit of the barrels was not 100%. The gun was tight, but it was off face quite a bit. About .005-.006" at the top. These photos show the condition of the gun when I received it. Note the fit of the dolls head rib extension which really shows the issue, as well as the daylight that is visible at the top of the breech. It was a pretty glaring issue that was the only wart on an otherwise beautiful gun.

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A new oversized roll joint was installed into the frame. The joint selected was a diameter of .550" which is approximately .012-.015" larger in diameter than most original used roll joints. This gave me the .005-.006" needed on the hook face to get the barrels back to being ready for refitting.

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The top and bottom sides of the hook were smoke fitted to the new joint. And then the breech face was smoke fitted to the frame until the barrels fully seated on the frame. Making the barrels seat fully then left some play in the bolt lockup, so a brand new bolt (also available through me) was fitted to tighten up the lockup.

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The back side of the forend loop also needed some very minor reworking to get the forend to seat tightly as a result of the barrel fitting. The new roll joint then needed to be case hardened for both functional and cosmetic purposes.

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The end result is a gun that is back on face and as tight in every way as it was when the gun was new. The photos below show the assembled gun. Note the appearance of the rib extension fit in comparison to the before photos.

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And to finish the job, the breech face was stripped as it would have been new.

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[Rick Losey]

Beautiful

[Brian Dudley]

It is difficult to show such minor details in photos. But i did the best i could.

[Jerry Harlow]

Brian,

What are the patterns on the breech faces of the barrels caused by, a light filing or polishing? Is this something that just would have been done to higher grades or just something you did to enhance the finish?

[Brian Dudley]

The striping on the breech face has been observed on grades as low as VH. Usually only seen on higher condition guns since it wore easily over time with use.

Similar treatments have been seen on Parker water tables under the case coloring. And even on the hammers inside the action. I have seen these particular features on grades as low as DH.

[Reggie Bishop]

Very impressive work.

[joe breda]

Good Job, Brian.
CHEERS,
JoeB, from SoCal... ����

[Mike Poindexter]

Beautiful work Brian. My question is, is this a cost effective process for 0 and 1 grade guns, or is tig welding the lug the only way to get there without breaking the bank? Of course, I also have a VHE grade with a .003 feeler gauge shim on the roll pin that has worked for almost 10 years now, but I must carry the gun assembled and have to replace the shim every few years as it creeps up on the barrel stop. I'd rather have a permanent fix, but dollars matter. Thanks.

[Brian Dudley]

Well, i dont think i can completely answer your question as it is a matter of opinion i suppose. I dont usually discuss pricing, but the cost to the customer on this job was just over $500. $200 of that was parts (new joint and bolt). I have heard some shops charging as high as $1,000 to put a gun back on face. And if i need to tig weld a hook and refit, everything, i notmally charge $500 anyway. So it is 6 of one/half a dozen of the other maybe.

There are some cases where swapping the roll joint is not a good opton at all, like in the case of adding a second barrel set where the original one fits fine.

As for shim on the hook, i guess it is just the difference between doing something and doing it right.

[allen newell]

Very nice work Brian. And thanks for walking us all through the process

[Mike Poindexter]

Thanks Brian. I was trying to make sure it wasn't an order of magnitude higher, which might make sense on a high condition grade 4 or better, but not a lesser grade. Now I can at least plan my budget and know where to go for the work.

[Michael Moffa]

Does anyone know for how long the roundel guns were made?

[Patrick Lien]

Does anyone know for how long the roundel guns were made?


I have seen it on B and C grades in the 1902 - 1904 era. Does anyone have one prior or after?

[Brian Dudley]

Generally they were 1900-1906. Give or take a dew years maybe. Mostly C grades and only about 25% or less of them. Attributed to Loy.

[Craig Larter]

CHE 173441(1916) with some striping still visible. I also have a GH and PH that show the same treatment and many Fox guns were finished with striping on the barrel flats (C and above) and breech face. Must have been a fairly common practice.

[Fred Preston]

This is a poor pic of my VHE #222382. It's been shot some but not much.

[Dean Romig]

My intent here is NOT to be contrary or to start an argument so I'll try to be 'soft-spoken' and present this more as a question because I really want to learn, rather than be argumentative...

Regarding any engraving on a Parker of any grade being "attributed to Loy" my question goes something like this...

In all the time I have spent in researching engravers who embellished Parker guns with their art, I have never once seen or read anywhere, including The Parker Story or anywhere on the Internet, be it in archives of factory engravers or contract engravers or on the various BBS forums where known experts have made statements to the point.....
That Joe Loy ever did contract engraving for Parker Bros. It is a known fact that he did wonderful work for Ithaca and Remington and there is even the possibility that he may have contracted to engrave a very few Parkers under Remington ownership - but never in the Meriden days, that I have ever heard of or read of.

So, my question is this (for the education of myself as well as all of the readers of this forum), can anyone provide bona fide documentation of a single Parker shotgun engraved by Joe Loy..... or proof that he ever contracted with either Parker Bros. or Remington Arms Co.?



Please accept my apologies for subverting Brian's excellent thread on "Putting a CHE back on face..."

If the administrator or a moderator wishes to remove this post and start a new thread with it.... Please do so.






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[Richard Flanders]

What a gorgeous C grade! Looks like the triggers are bent for a left hand shooter.

[Bob Dombeck]

Very nice work and worth every penny to do it right in my opinion. Brian is doing this process to a GH for me and it's nice to see a finished example and explanation on the work involved.

[David Costa]

Very nice workmanship Brian, could you tell me if you sell new roll joints to the trade please? David Costa

[Brian Dudley]

I no longer do as my inventory is very low and I do not have plans on having more made.

[George Davis]

Very impressive and thank you for sharing.

[Brett Farley]

Brian,
Thanks for walking us through this process. I had to go back and look at the before and after pics several times to fully understand the difference. Appreciate you teaching/showing us the difference. My untrained/non-mechanical mind would have never seen that w/out you pointing it out in such detail. Well done!