broken grips

[Richard Flanders]

Here's a question for those who know more than I, which includes quite a crowd. I was just sitting here wondering of the possibility of having a set of barrels made for a Parker that would make it a .405 Winchester double rifle. A 28ga frame would be big enough, but recoil might be too much for the wood. Totally aside from that, the question came to mind of which grip style is more likely to split from recoil, straight or pistol? Anyone have any mental numbers on that question? And don't worry about a double rifle conversion from me; it will never happen.

[Rick Losey]

i would expect the grip design would not be a contributing factor

the layout of the grain

the presence or lack of oil soaking

and any previous abuse that might go unnoticed

I would avoid any narrow wrist or smaller frames

I'd have the stock examined and reinforced - a staple added and some bedding

[edgarspencer]

I think you would find a straight stocked double rifle a bit awkward. I think an 0 frame would handle the recoil of a .405 with ease, especially if you're handloading. My dad had a 00 framed 28 that started life as a VH, and was beautifully engraved by John Warren, with a second set of barrels made by Joe Jurjevic, in 38-55. It was made for Ed Spicer, who was known for commissioning some awesome projects. Dad traded it back to Gary Herman for something a bit more traditional, and Gary sawed the pistol grip off and made it a straight stock. He admitted afterward he hadn't thought it through, and as a rifle, it was very unattractive.
I've had a couple .405WCF doubles, one a German box lock, and it wasn't beefed up. Kynoch loaded .405 but they were too hot for a '95 Winchester.

[Richard Flanders]

I think you're right on the 00 frame Edgar. Smaller than that would seem to be a tad small. The broken grip questions was just rhetorical and wasn't intended for the rifle conversion; If I were to ever do that, which is not in the cards, I'd do a pistol grip. I think a .405 dbl rifle would be a nice gun and plenty for anything I'd ever hunt. A friend here who converted a Winchester High Wall to .405Win took one of the biggest moose every taken in Interior Alaska with it a few years back. It made it into the Pope and Young list.

[Dean Romig]

I've always toyed with the idea of shooting .50 cal copper clad muzzle loader slugs in my 28 ga. Repro. One day I'll try it..... then I'll work on regulating it. Probably a bad dream but it intrigues me.

I've shot Remington slugs through a set of 20 gauge Titanic barrels. At 20 yards the POI was absolutely pitiful.





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[Brian Dudley]

I think an 0 frame is the smallest frame you woukd want to use for a double rifle on a parker frame. The spacing of the firing pins on the 00 frame makes for the bores being pretty close together. So your thinnest point in the breech walls would be inbetween the tubes. It may be ok from a realistic standpoint. But i woukd think a little more heaft in the breech is not a bad thing.

Also, the single bolting would concern many double rifle builders as well. Again, i do not think that it realistically would be a problem.

[Rich Anderson]

Pope & Young records with a 405??? Isn't P&Y archery?
Grip design would be a PG for several reasons such as strength and handling. I have never seen a double rifle in anything else.
Steve Barnett has a Ruger #1 listed in 405 Win intriguing but I have a #1 in 450/400 NE. I'm hoping to take it to Montana on a Bison hunt in the fall.

[Richard Flanders]

Couldn't tell you Rich. Could be it's P&Y class. I don't remember him saying it was B&C. It's certainly the second biggest moose I've seen here, the first being an 83" monster with 34 points sitting in the Nome airport in 1983. I think that one was the world record until someone took a larger one in the Innoko some years later.

[John Dallas]

A friend of mine shot a 71" moose with some of my .338 Handloads. His description of the moose raising his head out of the willows was "It looked like two sheets of plywood". I've seen the mount, and cannot imagine what 83" would look like

[Thomas L. Benson Sr.]

I talked to a gentleman yesterday that said he had a Parker double rifle in 45/70. I said I would like to see it so he came back today with a VH O frame pistol grip in well used condition.I have no idea or did he who did the conversion and the only thing I noticed was the dolls head seamed a tad shy. I would love to have it. I also talked to a fellow who had a 28 Ga with cut off barrels that he got in a Pawn shop. Thomas

[Brian Dudley]

45-70 is kind of the safest cartridge one can use for a double rifle build due to its low pressures. Nearly any action would likely handle it just fine.

[William Davis]

My opinion, worth what it cost, 405 Winchester is a great cartridge. Most double rifles are foreign and foreign caliber more suitable. Prices of double rifles weak you could probably buy a 400/450 less than converting a Parker.

Best action for the 405 is the 1885 Winchester High Wall. No issues with anything, plenty strong and a factory original caliber. 1895 Winchester too but I never could get to like the action. Less money Ruger # 1 which could be the best for hunting due to the Ejector. Never shot a moose but doubt if a real fast 2nd shot is needed. Good single shot can be reloaded very fast, not as fast as 2nd shot out of a double rifle. In a single shot 405 is not limited to the factory 300 gr bullet. I know several guys using the 405 case (calling it a 40/70) with 400 gr bullets in BPCS. It can be loaded to 400/450 ballistics in a strong action. 400 gr bullet at 2100 fps or so would need a well stocked gun.

At the Fall Vintage Cup I helped run the Double and Single shot rifle event. It's amazing how well some of the experienced shooters handle a single shot. Follow up shot accurate and plenty of time to re load and place the bullet properly. They shoot double rifles pretty good too.

William

[Gary Laudermilch]

At our club we hold a running deer shoot every weekend in November. The target runs at 100 yards and about the speed a real deer might run. Two markers 60 yards apart and the shooter is to fire two shots between the markers. Lots of time for bolt gun users.

I have a Ruger No. 1 in 7x57 and have been working up the moxie to try it on the running deer. I practiced at home with dummy rounds to perfect a technique that might enable me to reload fast enough to get off a second aimed shot. This past fall I finally gave it a try and to the wonder of all in attendance I not only managed to get the two shots off but got them on target. Now that was fun!

[Rich Anderson]

I don't pay much attention to the Julia auctions but IIRC there is a Parker double rifle advertised as a prototype or one of a kind. I would think the cost of building one would outweigh the cost of buying a vintage rifle.

Double rifles are definitely fun to shoot and I got caught up in it two years ago at Hausmanns.

[William Davis]

We have a running target rig at our club too. Fellow PGCA and Gun Club member set it up at the Vintage & I was the helper, we ran 30 or 40 relays. One that impressed me most was an older fellow on the Drilling target, added two thrown clays to the course of fire. 7x57 and 16 G.

Three rigs, one crosser left and right, one incoming & outgoing. One turning target stationary, exposed for varying times depending on how it’s set. Shoot them a fair amount, I do best with a Lever Action, in fact nearly everybody shoots it faster and better with a lever gun, but can get off a pretty good 2nd Shot with my O3 Springfield Arsenal Sportier, Lyman 48 Peep, run without the aperture insert. It’s a very smooth bolt action.

Club member goes to Alaska on a Bear Hunts/Fishing trips. Used a 375 H&H Mauser, got so he could hit the charger pretty well. For fishing We set it up again, he cast a fly rod, dropped it drew a 44 Magnum pistol and went after the charger. What I saw I am not counting on a holstered pistol against Bears

I am after a good Single Shot game gun, have 3 all target rifles, not suitable for running targets. Don’t find an original I like will get a Ruger # 1 in 405 first choice 400/450 2nd

William

[Dean Romig]

You certainly can't beat Ruger's version of the Farquharson falling block action for strength.

Mine is in .270 and it's a great single shot carbine.





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[edgarspencer]

I did some consulting work for Bill Ruger (Jr) and he gave me a Number One. I should have given more thought to it when he asked me what caliber I'd like, as I have had lots of .405 guns and have dies, cases and bullets.
But I also had all that in 9.3x74, and that's what the gun he gave me is chambered in. It's a powerhouse and about equal to a 375 H&H FLANGED Mag (not belted). Come to think of it, I don't need a gun in either caliber.

[Harry Collins]

I have 45/70 inserts for 12 gauge. They are about a foot or so long. The shots crossed horribly. I couldn't get 500 grain bullets at very low velocity to come close to convergence. If bullets out of a double rifle cross they are too light or too fast. If the shoot apart they are too heavy or too slow. They are held in with O rings. I though of shaving a side of the O ring and twisting the insert until I was hitting point of aim. Never got around to it.

[William Davis]

Way the Vintagers run the event two single shot classes Stalking and Stopping. Light and heavy calibers with some complicated rule on bullet weight and velocity. 405 makes Stopping class just barely or so I am told. No 1s have been made in several interesting Calibers. Light in 257 Roberts, 6.5 x 55, & 7x57 all good choices. Heavy calibers that interest me are the 405, 9.3 & 400/450. I used to shoot a lot of 45/70 and while a good choice for hunting or targets lately like the 40s better . Switched my BPCR to 40/65, big case you don't need unless using black powder.

Another one to think about if a 1885 Winchester is 30/40. Lot of old time hunters liked it a lot. 220 gr 30 caliber bullet has a very good sectional density and is about as powerful rifle as most game needs.

Really lot of things work, best get what you like.

William

[edgarspencer]

There are three 450-400 cartridges; 2 3/8", 3" and 3 1/4".
I had a Royal grade double in 3.25, and I'm not sure I'd recommend that it a No.1, unless it was loaded way down.

[John Dallas]

Mr. Tony in Connecticut will sell you a Model 21 45.70 and a second set of 20 gauge barrels for only $65K
https://www.connecticutshotgun.com/product/winchester-model-21-45-70-26-20ga-28/

[edgarspencer]

Mr. Tony in Connecticut will sell you a Model 21 45.70 and a second set of 20 gauge barrels for only $65K
https://www.connecticutshotgun.com/product/winchester-model-21-45-70-26-20ga-28/

Amazing what those lasers can do.

[Dean Romig]

There are three 450-400 cartridges; 2 3/8", 3" and 3 1/4".
I had a Royal grade double in 3.25, and I'm not sure I'd recommend that it a No.1, unless it was loaded way down.

Are you saying the action isn't strong enough?





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[edgarspencer]

Are you saying the action isn't strong enough?

The 3 1/4" is right up there with the severe punishing cartridges, but the Number One action can probably handle the recoil. It's the stock to receiver construction I would be concerned about. There is a reason H&H used extended top and bottom tangs on those guns.

[William Davis]

From what I saw at the Vintage Cup, watching all day, the big cartridges are good for a few shots that's all. Guys that shot well one time fell way off 2nd and third go.

William

[Dean Romig]

Guys that shot well one time fell way off 2nd and third go.


It's called a "flinch" in shotgun circles. "Shell shock" in 'combat' circles.





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[Rich Anderson]

There are rumors that Ruger is going to discontinue the #1. I hope not as it's a great rifle. I have a line on one in 6.5X55 that's the international but it's stainless and I'm not so sure about that.
A gun I most regret selling was a #1 AB in 7X57. It had nice wood and was a pleasure to carry and to shoot. I sold it when I had a custom bolt gun built in the same caliber and didn't see a need for two of them. That's was 25 years ago and I have never seen another in that configuration.

William I have a #1 in 450-400 3" NE and while I can push a 300gr bullet way faster than it needs to go I enjoy shooting a reduced load of about 1800 FPS using a Hornady XTP pistol bullet. If your looking for a #1 in 405 Steve Barnett has a nice one on his web site.

[John Allen]

There is a VH receiver and stock on sale now on guns international for $600.That could be a good start to a rifle project.

[Dennis E. Jones]

Putting rifle barrels on double shotgun actions can work well or not at all depending on the action and the rifle caliber. I put a set of 30-40 Krag barrels on a SKB 20 gauge action and it didn't work out. The action would try to spring open when fired. I didn't discover it until I was down to final regulation and putting the ribs on. It was a waste of time and money.

If you're serious about trying to put a set of rifle barrels on a Parker action I would get in touch with Ellis Brown : www.ellisbrowncustomshop.com or ellis450@hotmail.com.

He literately wrote the book and taught classes on "Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions". He's a super nice very helpful guy. He can tell you how to select an action for such a conversion. And he of course does that type of work.

I love double's whether smooth or rifled and have looked at and considered buying a double in 405. I don't need one but I would sure enjoy one.

[edgarspencer]

Putting rifle barrels on double shotgun actions can work well or not at all depending on the action and the rifle caliber. .

The reverse is also very true, although it's a far less common occurrence. Many years ago, (1974-5ish) There was a fabulous little Westley Richards Drop Lock action double rifle in .300 Sherwood at Safari. The bores were virtually gone. As you can imagine, this was a tiny little gun; aabout the size of a 00 framed Parker. No one wanted the gun, and ammo was all but non existent too. Eventually, someone bought the gun and bore it out to a .410. It was a dismal failure as it was nowhere near balanced and the replacement top rib was not in keeping with the quality of the gun.
Today, it would be a no brainer, to have the gun bored and sleeved, and with the original cartridge too. A real shame.
So many of the old Rook rifles were spoiled this way.

[wayne goerres]

600.00 is to much of an investment especially when you don't get the barrels and forearm to start a double rifle project. Parkers are not the best choice for a double rifle in any smoke less caliber.