50/95 WCF

[wayne goerres]

I have one of the Uberti 1876 win in 50/95 coming in the mail. Is anybody here loading smokeless loads for one of these. Any help would be appreciated.

[edgarspencer]

Use 50-70 data, with a case filler. I use pieces of styrofoam punched with an empty case.

[William Davis]

Lot depends on your intended use, few shots hunting one thing 40 plus shot string in a match another. Big cases intended for Black Powder always need help using smokeless. All kinds of tricks, best one is use Black Powder. Well lubed bullet half a dozen shots with Black Powder then a quick wipe works well.

I shoot a 38/40 in Lever Silhouette 5 shot string with Black Powder , one damp patch from the muzzle with a flexible Delrin rod while targets are reset gives good results. Same gun same bullet using Unique you don't need to wipe but the rifle won't group as well as with Black. Small volume smokeless it gets high and low strikes depending on powder position in the case. Some use fillers and wads I don't having seen problems with misplaced wads.

I don't shoot 45/70 any more went to 40/65 for my BPCS Simgle Shot Silhouette rifle same thing applies. Large case use Black Powder wipe from the breech between relays.

William

[Eric Johanen]

Wayne, With the large bore lever gun cartridges from the black powder era a duplex load works very well. Small charge of smokless with the main charge using 2 fg black. Check the Black Powder forums on the net as there is a lot of information on duplex loading. I use a duplex load for the 86 Winchester in both 40-82 and 45-70 with very good accuracy and can shoot as many rounds as I wish without cleaning. The guns are easy to clean but you will have to wash the brass to remove the black powder fouling. I used these in the 86 and modern re-makes of the 76 Winchesters. I only use black in the original rifles due to the softer steel used in the antiques. I found that 4 to 7 grains was enough for fouling control and the up to 10% smokless was never needed. They are great fun to hunt with and spend a day on the range with.

[James L. Martin]

You might try Blackhorn 209, look it up on the web. I have used it for 45/70 , 45/90 , 50/110. You load it like black powder, but cleanes up like smokeless. It's made for muzzle loaders , but also works great in old cartridges.

[charlie cleveland]

you boys shoot some interesting rounds...charlie

[William Davis]

Duplex with Black or one of the substitutes are a good option. Old advice including many good sources Recomended wads. Current practice among competition shooters using big cases is allmost universal no wad. Problem with the wad is if it moves and leaves air space it can cause chambers to ring.

What changed many minds were Charlie Dells experiments published in the ASSRA journal In the late 8os. He had a rail gun and under ground 100 yard test range. Chambered a barrel screwed it on tested, cut the chamber off re threaded and chambered , tested again. He could ring a chamber on demand with improperly placed wads.

Since only place you see wads in competition are modern striker action single shots chambered in 32 Miller or 32 Dell. Both based on 357 Maximum cartridges breech seated with a case full of fast pistol powder and wad on top. Case full the wad can't move and case full you can't breech seat without a wad. Spill powder in the actiion. Same guns chambered in the longer 32/40 nobody uses a wad.

If I had that big 50 and wanted to use smokeless would use TrailBoss. It's formulated for just that job and probably the most often used in Cowboy Action Matches. I have never duplexed, it's not allowed in NRA rule matches, but believe it's a very good option to reduce fowling.

William

[wayne goerres]

Gentle men I am trying to avoid assembling and disassembling the action on this gun to clean out the Bp fouling. Its a lot harder to do than droping the breach block out of one of my single shots. Thus the request for smokeless loads. Has anyone tried 5744 or 4198 ore even SR4759 in the 1876.

[Mark Landskov]

http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/miscellaneous.html

Kynoch sells their foam wads for reloading. They use them in their NFB loads, which is good enough for me. I use them in my 450 No. 1 Express with 51.7 grains of Reloder 7 and a 300 grain GC bullet. Graeme Wright recommends them in his latest book, also.

[Eric Johanen]

Wayne, there is no reason to disassemble the rifle every time you shoot it. Just clean the bore and wipe out the receiver and bolt in place , dry and oil.....good to go. Take the rifle down once a year and clean the internals, leave a thin coat of oil on the springs and parts and reassemble. Any fouling residue that gets into the action will lay on the oil film and not cause any problems. I've done this for 40 years and not had any problems with rust. The guns are easy to clean, just a few minutes. It will take some bit of time to clean your brass depending on how many rounds you run in a session. Punch the spent primer, into hot soapy water, brush with a bottle brush and give the outside a wipe with 0000 steel wool. Let dry and reload.. easy and great fun!

[William Davis]

4759 was my go to powder for smokeless 45/70 & 38/55 loads. It's no longer produced. Switched the bigger cases to 4227 which is the most often used 32/40 powder . In the larger cases its position sensitive which is not a negative target shooting, if you mount the gun same way every time. Old manuals Recomended 4198, I don't know of anybody who uses it.

At one of the big long range shoots Quigly I think , several rifles have been blown up with 5744. All sorts of Internet arguments why. My guess is a double charge.

Really Black Powder is the best option with Trail Boss 2nd & I prefer Black by a large margin. Big cases are hard to load with smokeless. I had a Marlin 1895 45/70 tried my best to get good smokeless performance in NRA Lever Rifle Silhouette. (black not required) Gave it up for a 30/30, caliber that wins most matches . All that empty space has to dealt with somehow and the solutions all have negatives.

I still shoot some Pistol Caliber Silhouette with Black in a Marlin 1894 and clean up is not a problem, but a much better performer is a 2nd near twin 1894 in 25/20 using smokeless powder. Small case full.

William

[William Davis]

4759 was my go to powder for smokeless 45/70 & 38/55 loads. It's no longer produced. Switched the bigger cases to 4227 which is the most often used 32/40 powder . In the larger cases its position sensitive which is not a negative target shooting, if you mount the gun same way every time. Old manuals Recomended 4198, I don't know of anybody who uses it.

At one of the big long range shoots Quigly I think , several rifles have been blown up with 5744. All sorts of Internet arguments why. My guess is a double charge.

Really Black Powder is the best option with Trail Boss 2nd & I prefer Black by a large margin. Big cases are hard to load with smokeless. I had a Marlin 1895 45/70 tried my best to get good smokeless performance in NRA Lever Rifle Silhouette. (black not required) Gave it up for a 30/30, caliber that wins most matches . All that empty space has to dealt with somehow and the solutions all have negatives.

I still shoot some Pistol Caliber Silhouette with Black in a Marlin 1894 38/40 and clean up is not a problem, but a much better performer is a 2nd near twin 1894 in 25/20 using smokeless powder. Small case full.

William

[Rich Anderson]

Trail Boss is a great smokeless powder for the large cases. I use it in a 500 BPE double and for reduced loads in a 450-400 3" NE. I down load my 375 H&H (pre64 M70) with 4227 and a jacketed pistol bullet. It makes for a fine deer round.

[James L. Martin]

You do not want to load old big bore cartridges with any powder that does not fill the case 100% . I think that real black powder is best , but if you worry about the fowling and cleanup I would try that Blackhorn 209, you load it the same as black , that is by volume. Fill the case and put a nitro card on top of powder then bullet to achieve AOL. I have loaded a few hundred rounds with it and all have shot great. I do plan on also trying Trail Boss.When you have extra air in the case you can get a chamber ring or worse. Just use a mag primer as Blackhorn 209 is hard to ignite. By the way Blackhorn 209 is I believe the only black powder substitute that is non corrosive and you clean up the same as any smokeless powder. Trail Boss is not a black powder substitute.

[William Davis]

Thing about small charges of fast powder is chance of a double charge. I double charged a 32/40 when breech seating my CPA Schuetzen rifle. Fellow distracted me loading at the shooting bench, not a excuse my fault. . Bigger bang no damage. It's a modern steel reproduction action that's capable of handing high power bottle neck cartridges, and the 4227 load was a mild one to start. .

After asked the question on ASSRA forum, who will admit they have double charged. Half a dozen guys said they have. Since I am more careful and check all loads with a drop gage. And that rifle will stand it. Weaker actions may come apart. Very good reason to use case filling loads in Lever action rifles.

William

[CraigThompson]

Gentle men I am trying to avoid assembling and disassembling the action on this gun to clean out the Bp fouling. Its a lot harder to do than droping the breach block out of one of my single shots. Thus the request for smokeless loads. Has anyone tried 5744 or 4198 ore even SR4759 in the 1876.

You look at this the same way as myself . I am adamantly against using yuck BP in anything other then an original muzzle loading rifle .

You might give some thought to Trailboss I used that in a circa 1896 Marlin 1895 in 40-82 although velocity was almost below sonic .

Seems to me I used 31.5 grains of SR4759 with a Gould 330 grain HP PB bullet in the 45-70 . But sorry to say I have no data for the 50-95 , only 50-95 I've ever had in hand was an original someone down the street from me wanted to sell .

[Tad Tadlock]

I use a lot of Trail Boss. My wife, my daughter, and I all shoot SASS Cowboy Action. I just got finished loading all 4000 of our .38 Special brass with Trail Boss. We shoot that from our revolvers and Marlin 1894C's. I also use it to load .44 Specials for my Wild Bunch 1894. Before we moved to all Marlins, I've used it in Rossi 92 rifles and carbines in .38/357 and .44. I still have those for backups.

I use Trail Boss in my original 1894 Marlin (1895) and my original 1892 Winchester (1910), my pair of S&W 1905's in .32-20 (1907 & 1909) and in my S&W Safety Hammerless in .38 S&W (1895).

Trail Boss is a lot more versatile powder than a lot of folks think. There is a data sheet from IMR, who originally developed Trail Boss, that tells how to make up a load for anything you want to shoot. There is a link to the sheet below. It's worth taking a look at.

Trail Boss Data Sheet (http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf)

[wayne goerres]

I have some trail Boss laying around here somewere. I may try it.

[Rich Anderson]

try it you'll like it. I sure do:)

[wayne goerres]

Rich is your 450/400/3" a double. What weight bullet are you shooting with reduced loads and if a double dose it regulate.

[Rich Anderson]

The 450/400 is a Ruger #1. I'm using 30gr of Trail Boss and a 210gr Sierra 41 cal pistol bullet.

The 500 BPE is a Heym double and I believe the load is 36gr of Trail Boss and a 365gr cast bullet but I'd have to look it up to be sure. It's very accurate in this rifle and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer at 100 yards with it.

[wayne goerres]

I think I will try that load in my Manton. It kicks the cr@& out of you with full house loads.

[Rich Anderson]

I like the reduced loads in the 450-400, 375 H&H & 416 Taylor. It makes them much more user friendly. You don't need to move a 400gr bullet at 2400 FPS to kill a deer. These reduced loads can and do make deer rifles out of Elephant guns:)

[wayne goerres]

I have noticed that there is a sever shortage of elephants in this country and cape buff. Might as well load it to shoot targets or deer. I loader my 416 down with 400gr cast bullets. Dosn't sound like much but sure makes a difference going down on the velocity to cast bullet velocity.

[Paul Harm]

I use 4198 as Sherman Bell recommended - 40% of 4198 of a BP load. That would be 24 grs of 4198 in my 40/60. Being a little cautious seeing how I was using a rifle barrel liner in my 10ga Remington and it was what I thought a bit thin, I started at 20.5grs and settled on 21.5grs. I also used some cotton balls for filler. The 40% formula seems to work just fine. Mild recoil and good groups.

[wayne goerres]

Well the brass dies and bullet mold arrived today but Dam it no gun yet. I am going to stay away from the wads and fillers if possible. 36grs of 5744 sounds good or may be some trail boss. I ran down to the building and cast a few bullets. they came in at 336grs. slightly heavy but close enough. Lion medicine if your are brave enough.

[Rich Anderson]

Ive read good thing about 5744 but haven't tried it. I have data for it with both the 450/400 and 416 Taylor. it's comforting to know I have Lion medicine you know just in case the neighbors cat goes on steroids:rotf:

[Paul Harm]

Last time I saw you it was more like MEOW-MEOW medicine. Have you upgraded ?

[Rich Anderson]

I have several killers of big creatures, a 416 Taylor, 450/400 Ruger #1 BUT the best is a Heym hammer gun with a Jones under lever in 500 BPE:). Maybe you might want to think of a stopping rifle competition at the shoot in May:whistle:

[wayne goerres]

I am glad I own a couple of stopping rifles. These armadillos are dangerous.

[charlie cleveland]

you boys got some interesting elaphant guns. paul how far out would you shoot at a deer with that 10 ga barrel liner...my 8 ga is only accurate at about 30 yards...charlie

[wayne goerres]

For those that were keeping up with this thread, the rifle arrived a couple of days ago. It is a thing of beauty. As soon as I get the chance Ill try to post a picture. I have tried a few different loads in the gun. Started with three rounds of 2f Bp to get an Idea of what the proper velocity for this particular cartridge should be. It went a little over 1300fps. The secound loads were run with 5744 powder in Three shot strings. The middle string shot pretty well but about 8" high at fifty yards. Powder burned pretty dirty. Left alot of partially burnt kernels in the bore and chamber. This was expected. Moved on to SR4759 powder. The first shot went 1089fps so I raised it one grain and it hit 1689fps. two twitchy for me. Tomorrow I am going to try IMR 4198. This gun sure is a hoot to shoot.

[Rich Anderson]

Are you sure that a one grain increase of powder upped the velocity 600FPS?
I have never seen such an increase in any of the centerfire cartridges I load for.

[wayne goerres]

Yep and that's why I stopped. I was expecting an increase of 100fps. 63grs of IMR 4198 netted me 1426fps this morning with a much cleaner burn. This is the first time I have used close cell foam backer rod in my loads. I thought maybe that had something to do with it but it didn't seem to make any difference with 4198. At any rate I am not going to push my luck. There are too many different powders out there.

[Rich Anderson]

Have you tried Trail Boss?

[wayne goerres]

Haven't had a chance yet. Rain has set in, but I am going to throw some tomorrow to try with the 4198. Thanks for the reminder.

[wayne goerres]

As promised her are some pic's of the rifle. The sharps in the first photo is there for scale. It is a 50/90 C Sharps with a 32" heavy barrel. I finished loading rounds for testing when it dries out. Loaded some trail Boss at 70% case capacity to 90%. Loaded one round each and ran outside between rain drops and fired them over the chronograph. Topped out at 1366fps. At 100% it didnt show any gain over 90% so I loaded three rounds each at 70%' 80% and 90% to try out when it dries out. My pic's didn't load so I will have to try again

[wayne goerres]

Lets try again.

[Rich Anderson]

That's a nice looking rifle. I know Winchester is offering the 76 (IIRC) and Turnbull is doing the case colors. I've toyed with the idea of one in maybe 44-40 but I doubt I'll do anything about it. I have two Winchester lever guns and haven't shot either one:(

[edgarspencer]

The 1873 was made for the pistol cartridges, and the 1876 was for the longer cases.
Its a nice looking '76, Wayne. I like the colors. I have an original and wish it showed the colors yours shows.

[William Davis]

One grain of 4759 + 600 fps, somethings wrong. Thrown from a measure ?

William

[wayne goerres]

Weighed on a Dornady electric powder dispenser.

[calvin humburg]

Edgar what caliber is your 76? Friend has an 86 next generation action but it is cool gun as well.

[edgarspencer]

Calvin, my '76 is in 40-82WCF.
I also like the '86s and foolishly let a guy talk me out of my 45-90 takedown.

[Richard Flanders]

I have a crudely butchered 16" Win 1886 T/D in .45-90. Wicked fast little bear gun and bungees onto the front rack of a Honda quad quite nicely. It's the only gun I have that I've had to use to kill a bear in self defense.

[edgarspencer]

It's no secret I love Winchesters, and in particular, lever guns.
I'm coming to grips with my dilema of having too much stuff, and am selling a lot of my special order 94 rifles. The last to go will probably be a 25-35 semi deluxe with shotgun butt, half round / half oct, pistol grip, set trigger beach front and Lyman tang. I chased that one for over ten years. Or maybe the last one will be the set trigger Half round 38-55. No, it'll have to be the 98% takedown. I know, I'll keep them all.

[wayne goerres]

I had a chance about 3 years ago to buy a 76 win. in 50/95 at the southern but I had already purchased a Boss and my budget was a little dented. Wanted one ever sense so I bought a replica.

[Rich Anderson]

The Southern is a good place to dent the budget, mine has been dented there every year for as long as I've gone:eek:. I'm trying to pre buy this year:rotf:

[wayne goerres]

You will probable regret that. A better strategy might be to pre- approve some purchases in your area and then attend the southern. That way if you find something better than buy it. If not than this will leave you time to develop some serious Buyers remorse about the Items you pre approved. I am sure this advise isn't worth the time it took to type it.

[Rich Anderson]

I have already pre bought one that I'll pick up there and am working on two more also to be picked up at the Southern. This way I get what I want and am financially dented before I get there and won't/can't be influenced into another purchase......I hope:whistle:

[wayne goerres]

There's always MAD MONEY!

[wayne goerres]

Reviving this thread for all of those that showed interest. The final load consisted of 37grs of IMR 4198 a federal large rifle primer and a bullet cast from a lyman mold that I opened up to cast .516. The velocity ran 1515fps and it shoots a 1 1/2" clover leaf at 50yds with open sights. Thats about as good as I can see.

[charlie cleveland]

i would hate to be the deer that run into this load....charlie

[wayne goerres]

Was supposed to stop a Buffalo but I don't think it did to good a job of it unless you emptied all 10 rounds into it. Should take care of a deer.

[Rich Anderson]

Did you ever try the Trail Boss? I have my 16's loaded so I'm going to give it a try in my Ruger #1 450-400 NE and a 200gr+/- pistol bullet.

[wayne goerres]

Yea I did, but the velocity was lo and the accuracy was only so so. I may try it again since I reworked the bullet mold and there may be an improvement in accuracy.

[Mark Landskov]

Wayne, what is the weight of your cast bullets? I have some 330 grain plain base bullets on the way from Montana Bullet Works. They are sized .515", which should work well with the Uberti .514" groove diameter. Winchester actually cataloged smokeless loads for the 50-95 in 1897 and 1898. I will be using IMR 4198.

:cheers:

[wayne goerres]

Mark. You are about to have a lot of fun. 4198 is a good choice for powder. I am using 5/8" backer rod on top of my powder charge. I had to change sights on mine the Uberti sights just didn't work for me. My bullets cast at 350grs.(if I remember correctly).

[Robert Bork]

Has anyone ever used black powder and jacketed bullets together? my point is the black is for not overloading the 1876 Winchester, the jacketed bullets for game.. plus I have a hoard of them..

[Mark Landskov]

Winchester cataloged quite a few cartridges that were loaded with black powder and 'metal patched' bullets.

[wayne goerres]

I have never seen a jacketed bullet in that diameter. At these velocity's they would not expand.

[Mark Landskov]

Barnes makes a 300 grain JSP, but they are .510".