Remington 1/2 Frame Parkers

[Austin W Hogan]

I have been told there is a question on another forum relative to the PGCA archive on 1/2 frame guns. This appeared in Parker Pages Vol 9, Issue 2. If you have the Parker Pages disk it can be called up, or a printed copy can be obtained from Jim Hall ( sjhall@haloisp.net) as noted on the masthead of Parker Pages. There are other articles that have half frame information as well.
If the Parker Pages page is too large to attach, I will ask to have it posted on the FAQ

Best, Austin
The table is too large; I will try to have it posted on the FAQ

[Robin Lewis]

Austin, here is the table for you.

[Dave Fuller]

Are these factory data? Interesting that almost half the D's have pads rather than skeleton butts... huh!

[Dean Romig]

And less than 1/3 of the guns with recorded weights are over 7 lbs. indicating that the 1/2 frame truly was a lighter 12 gauge than has been rumored in the last several years.

[Dave Suponski]

But...The one 30" A1S is still an 8 lb. gun.

[Bill Murphy]

Austin, you can add 241,672, a DHE with Parker single trigger, splinter forend, skeleton butt, straight grip, and replacement PSS 28" 16 gauge barrels. By the way, what happened to the early guns that seem to have been prototypes for 1/2 frame guns? I guess we have not found any of those guns. Have any guns in the latest stock books been identified as 1/2 frame guns by the entry in the frame size column?

[Austin W Hogan]

I have learned that this question arose on the Doublegun? Doublegunshop? forum; I am not a member and I hope one of you will transfer this material there.
Robin was able to extract and post this table from Vol 9 Issue 2 (2002) Parker Pages. It came from an article by Ron Kirby that appeared in DGJ. The table follows several pages of discussion on the original Parkergun Forum. A note follows this table indicating that there is no 1/2 frame size data entered in the Remington/Parker records or the Remington IBM cards. The table was prepared by noting the s/n and details of guns seen or reported and is not a record of manufacture from the order or stock books.
We found an internal Remington memo that suggested forging of additional 1/2 frames if Parker production were to continue, and noted it in the series of Parker Pages articles about the "cessation of the Parker operation". Craig Reynolds also noted a statistical forecast of the number of 1/2 frames in a related article.
I think that the way to determine the number of 1/2 frames made would be to take the approach Dave and Larry have used to examine the tooling used to bore damascus barrels. If someone could extract some info about Parker's forge ( or the forge used by Parker's frame forging supplier) the number of frames made per batch could be estimated. It appears that Parker may have made a batch of 1/2 frames, finished one or two as prototypes and abandoned the idea. The left over frames were shipped to Ilion were they were used as the supply of frames available dwindled. Some of the letters /memos in the shutdown articles indicate that some sizes of frames/fore end irons were not available.
Best, Austin

[Robin Lewis]

I the Volume 7, Issue 3 Parker Pages from 2000, Ron Kirby wrote that there was speculation that the 1/2 frame was a Remington innovation but there is evidence that they were working on the 1/2 frame as early as 1929, Ron said there is a blue print of the 1/2 frame dimensions. He did say where he found the blue print? He did however have a chart from a Remington Catalog, Dept 50 which I will post here.

After a quick computer search of the Parker Pages DVD, it looks like there have been at least four articles written about the Half Frame Parker.

Sometime ago, I sent 1/2 frame data I had collected over the years from auction sales to someone on the forum working on an article for Parker Pages. I don't know why but I can't locate the mail exchange and I don't remember who it was. But, the table I posted above has been updated but I can't verify if 241,672 was among the additions.

[Bill Murphy]

I have seen this chart. As a chart showing which gauges were made on which frame sizes, it is very incomplete. As a supposedly late Remington illustration, it does not indicate the abbreviated frame versus gauge usage that was proposed for the end of production. It seems to be a very early chart of frames that Remington intended to use for various gauges. This chart is not intended to illustrate all gauges built on all frames. It also does not show the use of the 000 frame for the 28 gauge, which was a very late proposal that was to take Remington into the end of Parker production.

[Austin W Hogan]

Has anyone seen a 3 frame 8 ga?

Best, Austin

[Bill Murphy]

I just noticed THE CHART POSTED ABOVE IS INCORRECT. THESE ARE NOT THE CORRECT PIN SEPARATIONS. The only correct pin separation chart that I know of is on page 527 of The Parker Story.

[Dave Suponski]

Robin,I would think that you gave that info to Craig Reynolds who published an updated 1/2 frame article a couple of Parker Pages ago. He used info from Kirby's research and added some additional info and an updated list of known 1/2 frame guns. An outstanding article I might add.

Parker Bros. was the one who first conjured up the idea for the 1/2 frame.I have a copy of the blueprint for the 1/2 frame and if memory serves it was dated 1930. The drawing is in my other computer and not available right now but I posted this drawing here not to long ago and sent some e-copies to interested parties. Maybe someone here has it in their machine an can post it for us all.

[Robin Lewis]

Dave,

You are correct! For a man your age your memory is good!

Craig Reynolds wrote an article for the Winter Parker Pages in 2009, Volume 16, Issue 4, titled "How Many Parker Half Frames?" and the blue print is included too.

I also see that #241,672 is not listed in that article's data. I hope Craig sees this thread and adds it to his data collection.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, were the barrels on 241672 replaced by Remington?

[Bill Murphy]

Austin, Robin's chart has three errors in pin placement distance. Maybe he would correct them and repost the chart.

[Bill Murphy]

Austin, I also find it hard to believe that the #3 frame was made in two different widths. No, I have not seen an eight gauge on a #3 frame. Funny how that set of figures appears on a chart put together by a Remington employee who had probably never seen an eight gauge Parker. The smallest hammerless eight gauge frame I have ever seen is a #6.

[Robin Lewis]

Bill,

The chart I posted is a copy of a Remington chart taken from one of their catalogs. I didn't create the chart, its more or less an historical document and nothing I would change, right or wrong. It is what it is.

I simply copied it from an old issue of Parker Pages just as it was copied by Mr. Kirby when he wrote that article. I believe I even listed the issue I took it from.

Please, don't shoot the messenger :duck: because its ME!:eek:

Robin

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, I replaced the barrels on #241,672 with a set from the old junk box.

[Bill Murphy]

Thanks, Robin, I just wanted to make sure that everyone had the correct information. By the way, the 1930 Remington half frame blueprint that Dave mentions is the blueprint that says "Use #1 barrels." Only after Dave sent me a copy of that blueprint did I think to use a set of #1 frame 16 gauge barrels on my half frame DHE which, up to that time, had no barrels at all.

[Austin W Hogan]

I remember a gun that was offered at Las Vegas that was stamped 1/2 on the lug but was a 1 1/2.

Best, Austin

[Dave Suponski]

Actually Robin,My memory isn't that good..:rolleyes: The reason I remembered is that I helped just a wee bit on that article with Craig....

[Bill Zachow]

Austin, the smallest framed 8 gauge I have ever seen is a 5. Owned the gun for about 2 days and then returned it. Too many issues, even though it was a lifter. One neat thing about it...the shell head rims fit into a recesses on the standing breech.

[Dean Romig]

One neat thing about it...the shell head rims fit into a recesses on the standing breech.


Wow! I've never heard of that before. Have you ever seen another in any gauge that was made that way? I've seen a couple of early Parkers with gas venting recesses in the standing breech and escape holes.










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[Bill Murphy]

Bill Zachow, it is very interesting that you mention a hammer gun built on a #5 frame, but hammerless eight gauges seem to be limited to #6 frames. In fact, there seem to be no #4 or #5 hammerless frames in any gauge that have surfaced. I have measured the eight gauge shell against the existing frame sizes and have determined that an eight gauge #3 frame hammerless gun can be built, but no one has come forward with one built at the Parker Brothers factory so far.

[Austin W Hogan]

I think that the Remington Frame information came from a parts list of 1950's vintage. The frame info was to be used when ordering parts.

Best, Austin

[Bruce Day]

Austin, if I remember correctly, there has been quite a lot of research published in the Parker Pages about the half frame 12's. There was that article and several others by Parker experts who carefully went through the PGCA records. Great research and fine articles. There was another article specifically dealing with average weights if anyone is interested.

[Dean Romig]

And it seems every time we discuss it here another little tidbit of 1/2 frame information surfaces.

[Bruce Day]

Well we don't want to get into the black hole of forgetting about what has been already written about the subject in the Parker Pages.

[Dean Romig]

I just came across the 1/2 Frame blueprint.

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[David Noble]

So it appears the designers married a No. 1 standing breech to a No. 0 lower frame and components except for an offset on the hammer noses to match the No. 1 pin spacing.
The lightning cuts on the water table are like the No. 00 frame. Very interesting, and I wish that the times had not cut the production short. I would love to own one.

[Bill Murphy]

I haven't seen a 1/2 frame with lightening cuts. Are there any so equipped?

[Brian Dudley]

No, it is generally accepted that the lightening cuts did not make it onto the frames that were eventually used in production by Remington.

Who knows if Meriden would have ended up putting them in if THEY had built the guns. Or if it is something that was just on the original engineering print and later left out of production.

[Mills Morrison]

A 1/2 frame is on my long term want list.

[Dean Romig]

No, it is generally accepted that the lightening cuts did not make it onto the frames that were eventually used in production by Remington.

Who knows if Meriden would have ended up putting them in if THEY had built the guns. Or if it is something that was just on the original engineering print and later left out of production.


I don’t remember ever having seen a lightened hammerless 0-frame. We see lightening cuts on most (but not all) 0-frame 16 gauge hammer guns but that practice apparently wasn’t continued on the hammerless models until the 00-frame was introduced.





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[Bill Murphy]

Note that the 1930 blueprint mentions the possibility of a 16 gauge 1/2 frame. I have never seen one from the factory, but remember that there are thousands of Parkers in the hands of people who don't know a frame size from a duck's wing. My 1/2 frame 16 was built from parts as well as a mismatched set of 12 gauge 1/2 frame barrels for a great DHE two barrel set. It is a true lightweight with a beautiful straight grip buttstock smaller than any .410 or 28 gauge stock I have measured. My second 1/2 frame gun is Forest Marshall's old gun, a rather standard 1/2 frame with matching parts. Thank you for the posters on this great thread.

[Jim Pasman]

Given the 2002 data cites only 12ga guns and given the "rule of 96", here's a question for those among us who are fortunate to use them - are they heaven in the field and hell on the shoulder (unless loaded with less than an ounce of lead)? Most on the chart are over 6lbs, but I'm still curious.

[Robert S. Johnson, Jr.]

Parker Brothers DH 12 gauge, Skeet/Skeet chokes, 28” barrels with ivory bead, built on the ½ frame. Features include a beavertail forearm, double triggers, black walnut stock, skeleton butt plate, and all matching serial numbers. Weighs in at a sleek 7 lbs on my bathroom scales.

From what I can gather, few Parkers were ever built on the ½ frame—and a DHE 12 gauge, Skeet/Skeet, double triggers, and Beavertail setup ? That’s unicorn territory?

Serial number 241883 places it in the final years of Parker production, made in Ilion, NY under Remington—likely between 1938 and 1941. That makes it one of the last Parkers built, and possibly the only known 12-gauge half frame with this configuration.

Only stamp as a DH but it has ejectors so it is a DHE?

This one’s got me scratching my head and grinning ear to ear. Rare bird? Hidden gem? You tell me…

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Robert for posting on this wonderful website forum of your very unusual Parker 1/2 frame Skeet gun. I saw your post over on FaceBook and remarked over there but this site is, generally speaking, the last place anyone should look for Parker information (but really should be the first place to look).





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[CraigThompson]

On the J Cliff Green skeet set was the frame for the 12 and 20 barrels a 1/2 frame ?

[Dean Romig]

It would certainly make sense if it was. Good question!





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[Bill Murphy]

Yes, the Cliff Green big gun is a 1/2 frame. The little gun is a 00 frame, if I remember correctly. They could have built the little gun on a 000 frame, since there are two known examples of 28 gauge 000 frame guns. Centerville, Maryland, Cliff Greens home town, was where one of my 20 gauge singles called home before I found it.

[Bill Murphy]

What do we think about the choke markings on Robert Johnson's great 1/2 frame gun? Also the numbers that are stamped under the choke markings?

[Dean Romig]

I think all the stamps on the barrel flats are original Remington stamps but the 70 and 62 puzzle me too Bill.





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[Robert S. Johnson, Jr.]

If I send off for a letter for my SN# 241883 1/2 frame 12g, what do you think it will say if anything?

[Dean Romig]

There is precious little on Remington/Ilion era Parkers but you should first send a PM to Chuck Bishop, our Research Chairman and the guy who produces research letters from existing factory records to see if it mentions the frame size or anything else that might be of particular significance.





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[Dave Noreen]

Love the Marbles front sight. Certainly a 1/2 frame skeet gun with double triggers has to be pretty nearly unique. Does it have the grade, gauge and chamber length on the left side of the barrel lug?

[Robert S. Johnson, Jr.]

Yes

[Bill Murphy]

I am not familiar with Parker skeet guns whose choke markings are not SKEET IN and SKEET OUT. Is there a reference in The Parker Story for skeet guns choke marked only SKEET?

[Mills Morrison]

I order research letters for all of my Parkers for which information is available. You never know what you are going to get until you get the letter. Higher grades sometimes yield disappointingly little info and lower grades sometimes yield more than you expect.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, this is all I found after a cursory look.

The stamps are in the correct spots and I don’t know why they differ from the customarily seen stamps, but I wouldn’t rule out their being Ilion factory stamps.
241883 is definitely a gun produced in Ilion.


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[Bill Murphy]

Do any of our posters own a Remington Parker with just SKEET stamped as a choke marking?

[Dean Romig]

I have one Bill, a VHE 28 gauge verified Skeet gun by both Chuck and G&H records as such but it has no choke markings at all. But then, it was made in Meriden under Remington ownership.





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[Chuck Bishop]

Robert, we have no records for this gun. Always go to the PGCA home page, click on "Research Letters", click on the red "Here" link and type in your S/N with no comas before sending away for a Research Letter. It will tell you if a letter can be written.

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, the gun you mention does not have the markings I asked about.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, which “gun I mentioned”?





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[Dave Noreen]

If I send off for a letter for my SN# 241883 1/2 frame 12g, what do you think it will say if anything?

These late Ilion Parkers have about as much to tell from their barrel flats as the little bit of IBM card info. Your gun's flats show a date code of RJ (blue) R = November J = 1940 and a repair code of OK3 (orange) O = July K = 1941.

136225

I have a theory, and that is all it is, that these guns with a repair code so soon after the build date indicates a gun taken fom inventory and modified in some way to fill an order.

The 70 and 62 are head scratchers!

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, I asked if anyone had a Parker with just "SKEET" for a choke stamping. You replied that you have a 28 gauge with NO choke markings. I am still waiting to hear if anyone has an original Parker with just "SKEET" as a choke marking.

[Robert S. Johnson, Jr.]

Picked up this numbers matching LC Smith 12 gauge with 30” barrels the same day I acquired my Parker 12 on 1/2 frame. Both came from the same gentleman’s collection, though I don’t have his name yet. Working on tracking that down, especially since he was the original owner and had ordered the Parker himself.

I don’t know much about this LC Smith yet, but it seems very similar in feel and build. If anyone has insight into this model or knows more about the original owner, I’d appreciate it.

[Dave Noreen]

Your Parker DHE had a retail price of $195 plus $19 for the beavertail forearm in 1940, while a Field Grade L.C. Smith was a $49 gun at that time though I suspect yours is considerably older. I'm far from an L.C. Smith expert but I doubt that beavertail forearm wood was original to the gun.

[Bill Murphy]

We all have to admit "That is some beavertail".

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, what are the exact choke constrictions and bore measurements of your 28 gauge skeet gun? I also have a 28 skeet gun with no choke markings. The reason mine does not have a Skeet In and Skeet Out marking is probably because it is true cylinder bore and the skeet markings would be incorrect. I suspect the reason your 28 skeet does not have the In and Out marking would be that it is not choked Skeet In and Skeet Out, but some other combination.

[Dean Romig]

Actually Bill, I’m moose hunting in northern Maine just east of the Allagash Wilderness Waterway and when I’m home next week I’ll measure the chokes again. But if memory serves me, the left barrel is like .007” and the right barrel is like .015” or numbers very close to those. It is a 1936 production gun.





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