I don't want to be an alarmist, but....

[Dean Romig]

It seems that Parkers are selling more cheaply these days, from what I see on the Internet auction sites. What do you suppose is the cause of this?

My take is that people are more willing to accept less for some pretty nice guns and I have wondered about the reason for this.... and what I think is the reason is that these sellers (at drastically reduced values) actually NEED to sell these really nice Parkers and consequently accept lower prices. But I don't expect this trend to last. I think we are looking at a new America - a more prosperous America where people no longer need to sell off their nice guns as a way of "making ends meet."

What are your thoughts?





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[John Dallas]

I think it's less demand. Younger folks aren't interested in our kind of guns. As the market shrinks, average quality guns are no longer in demand, so prices soften. Presently, the market for high quality examples will remain good, but down the road.....

A friend of mine who is a major buyer/seller/collector of WW II militaria is seeing the same thing

[todd allen]

Dean, I think this is a very timely topic. Without bleeding on this forum, I must say that the years between 2007 and today have been for me a lost decade.
Business and real estate losses, loss of my son to an auto accident in 2009, 180,000 pages of new regulations added to the books in the past 8 years, virtually guaranteeing an older, small business type like me will NEVER, be able to pick up the pieces. Working for other people for the past 6 to 7 years at a break-even existence. Yes, some very nice guns left my modest collection.
All that said, I have renewed faith in my country, and a God that allowed me to be born here. It will get better.

[Dean Romig]

I recently bought an exceptionally nice Parker for a fraction of what I considered to be its actual value. I am not, nor have I ever been, a "bottom feeder" but I was the high bidder and would have even bid more, but....






.

[Dean Romig]

Dean, I think this is a very timely topic. Without bleeding on this forum, I must say that the years between 2007 and today have been for me a lost decade.
Business and real estate losses, loss of my son to an auto accident in 2009, 180,000 pages of new regulations added to the books in the past 8 years, virtually guaranteeing an older, small business type like me will NEVER, be able to pick up the pieces. Working for other people for the past 6 to 7 years at a break-even existence. Yes, some very nice guns left my modest collection.
All that said, I have renewed faith in my country, and a God that allowed me to be born here. It will get better.



Todd, I am truly sorry for your losses, especially that of your son.




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[George Lang]

I believe it has more to do with the aging of sportsman with fewer and fewer youngsters coming into the sport and those do have more interest in more modern firearms. Having a small antique business I see less and less interest in "old stuff". What were highly sought collectibles a few years ago don't move anymore or people have no idea what it is. Ask someone under 40 who Howdy Doody is, or even Hopalong Cassidy, and watch for the blank stares. American firearm trends have always been bigger, faster, more powerful and thats what the new sportsman looks for. Your told you can't kill a duck unless you Have the latest 3 1/2" super duper magnum and a "6 ounce load of the latest technology shot at unbelievable speed". When you read the posts here most water fowl are shot with 7/8 to 1 1/4 oz. loads at what would be considered ridiculously slow speeds by today's standards, and yet they work and work well. Outside of the "true collector's" and collector quality firearms, or Sportsmen in the"know" I don't believe prices will escalate the way they have in past years unless we can pass on our ways to a younger generation. We are Dinosaurs and fading fast, hopefully some will discover our footprints.

[allen newell]

George has it correct. Kids today are not interested in buying what they consider to be 'antique' the way their parents and grandparents did. They want new and flashy.

[Bill Kekatos]

I just turned 49. I have always carried an appreciation for SxS vintage guns and I enjoy shooting them for hunting and sporting. I have a modern shotgun (Beretta autoloader) but I have not shot it for about 6 years, although I probably shoot it better than some of my older shoguns. I also have a Browning O/U used for sporting clays and that too has collected a lot of dust in the last few years. There is something about the old time craftsmanship and the artists who created those beautiful examples of functional work of art that is seldom duplicated nowadays, (or it is beyond my affordability when created today). I would not be able to afford any of my turn-of-the century guns if they were to be produced today the same way as then, handmade, with lots of labor intensive hours by expert workers at today's market prices. Heck, I would not be able to afford the piece of walnut wood or the engraving work on it.
For me, the vintage gun represent an example of amazing work of art, aesthetics, and quality that I can both admire and use at the same time. Those old guns have soul!!! Alas, a lot of shooting folks I know do not share the same admiration and views as I do. BillK

[Brett Hoop]

Sounds like an echo in here. I think that is the heart of it, the age of those interested.
I know of 1 young man under 30 that has a passion for Parkers. I'd bet a bunch of us that are between 50 and 70 have seen our incomes as stagnant the last 10 years. Myself I don't have someone that wants them when I am gone and that plays a part also.

[David Holes]

My recent purchase from GB tells me the bottom feeders are not paying up for guns like they were. My guess is that they have more then enough of the good deal Parkers sitting around. and that the demand has weakened enough so they must sell at a loss to move them along. I'm not sure we will ever recover from this as our youth seem more interested in cheap, ugly, plastic. My oldest son just informed me that the woodwork in his new house is old fashioned, stained and varnished, and needs to be updated to white trim.

[todd allen]

I think it really requires a certain level of maturity to develop a passion for Parkers.
Most are not there yet, at 30 years of age.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

This is an interesting topic, The "aging out" of folks that appreciate quality doubles has something to do with it, I myself have a few guns consigned, just because I needed to make room for new acquisitions, I have a certain price that I will sell at and no less, else I will keep them for a few more years God willing, There comes a time when you go into that gun room and stop and realize that most of what you see is not being used, or have been shown at many shows, and it is time to move on. In my case just rare and high grade guns from now on. I have to wear blinders like the old mule, concentrate on what to collect or the collection ends up just a lot of guns. Some of our group are in their late seventies or early eighties, and just want to be rid of them so they are not tied up in an estate. We need to come up with an idea, that will attract younger folks and keep them in the fold, this is needed by all the groups Smith ,Lefever,Fox etc. I have an idea and will put it out at a later date. If we are to survive, we must do like businesses do, start readying the next generation, Gary

[Kirk Potter]

I think it goes hand in hand with the declining popularity of hunting. I'm 30, I started upland hunting in 2011 when my cousin invited me to go out with him and his English setter.. In 2012 I bought my first double gun, a Ruger red label.. 2013 bought my first dog an English setter.. 2016 first Parker. I think that if you fall in love with upland hunting eventually the road leads to Parkers. But one thing that I have noticed as someone who really hasn't hunted that many years, is that every year I run into less and less people. When I do they tend to be in their 60's or 70's.

[Kenny Graft]

Loss of the working middle class!!!!! Big culprit. I will say we are in a soft marker for all firearms unless they are special.... in demand and hard to find. If anyone finds a sleeper deal on a un-molested O-frame DHE-16....please let me know, I will up the bid...(-: I see the nuts and bolts gun selling under value or at a real good price these days, a buyer can pick and choose and wait till he finds the sweet spot. But guns like the one I mentioned are few and have more than several people who want it...maybe the only one available for some time.....good ones never sell ''cheap'' if properly marketed! that's my take...SXS Ohio

[John Liles]

I don't want to be an alarmist either, and hope that Dean is correct in his prognosis that values will rise again.
I think we have a bigger problem looming. As we age we'll hit a point where suddenly we don't need another Parker or LC Smith, and if we haven't somehow garnered the interest of the next generation of vintage gun enthusiasts, then the value of our prized doubles will die of old age as we do.
When is the last time that Team Parker fielded a Junior Shooter at either the Spring or Fall Southern SXS shoots? Team Elsie usually has one or two, and that is nearly as pathetic as none, but my point is that if we don't do something to bring along the next generation.....we WILL be the end of the line as far as interest in our guns, and interest is what drives price. Even if the economic times get better, if there's no interest there is no sale. Our un-intersted grand-churrins will clean up at the Pawn Shop for Pennies on our well spent Dollars.
It's up to us.
John

[Dean Romig]

This is getting depressing... but I agree with you John. I think we owe it to our hobby, to these great old guns, to the young folks who could really get a lot from collecting, shooting, and hunting with them, and to ourselves to try to get the kids off the couch, off their electronic games and out to the Skeet, trap, and SC ranges. Our future and the future of collecting will be in the hands of today's youth.





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[Gary Laudermilch]

I agree with the age issue as others have stated. Kids today are into guns so far away from a Parker sxs it is difficult to even hold a conversation on the subject. Next time you are at a well attended sxs shoot, stop and look around. Nothing but old duffers.

As for kids, I am more than a bit bewildered. I have coached a youth shotgun team for the last 15 years. Early on we had little difficulty getting kids to participate. Oh, we had to work at it but ultimately we found the kids we needed. Last year we barely fielded a qualifying squad and at the end of the season several opted out for this year and efforts at new recruits yielded nothing. I admit we are in a rural, low population area but it is in the middle of PA hunting country. The kids themselves are part of the problem but equally so are the parents. Many have given up hunting in favor of more social activities and are not encouraging the kids to participate. Over the years the most dedicated kids have been those whose parents also shot. We are just not seeing that anymore.

It is indeed a sad state of affairs.

[John Campbell]

Our future and the future of collecting will be in the hands of today's youth.

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Agreed, Dean. But is the PGCA planning to do anything about some of it? About a year ago there was some talk of a youth program. But I've heard nothing more for 12 months. Anybody have an update?

As others have said, the value of any classic gun is a combination of history, heritage, romance, nostalgia, tradition and taste. Without those aspects handed down to young people, tomorrow's market for any classic double gun will fade to oblivion.

Sorry if I sound pessimistic...

[Craig Larter]

It is not only the vintage gun market that is soft. I have collected antique decoys for nearly 50 years and I can buy nice decoys for 30 to 40 percent less than 10 years ago. Same deal as vintage guns an aging collector population. Country antiques are even more depressed, I sold my parents life long collection of antique furniture and got 30 cents on the dollar that my parents spent on many nice pieces. In all these markets it seems only the very best continue to appreciate.
My son is much like many 30 year old men. He loves to hunt, just bought his first Lab but the difficult economy and college debt makes money tight and time off hard to come by in today's working world.
Times and tastes change but everything runs in cycles. After WWII side by side shotguns were out of favor for decades and could be purchased for a song, could be we are entering the bottom of a cycle again that will reverse at some time.

[John Liles]

I wasn't trying to be depressing as much as maybe trying to hi-light an aspect of our hobby that hasn't/isn't getting as much exposure as it needs to for us to keep our guns in the game. I try to look at the situation as more of a Challenge than an Obituary!
For any of our children less than 8 years old, and more like less than 12 years old, all they've ever seen/heard/read about has been the heathen nature of our sport.
God willing and the Creek (Nation) don't rise, that will change with the current political environment, and if we do our do diligence we might be able to get our message out the he next batch of double gun care-takers before they all decide to become expert hand-ball players!
John

[calvin humburg]

I think it is a money issue. Motorcycles are down as well.

[Tom Pellegrini]

Mr. Campbell,
A reply to your question of an update on the youth program. The message I received was that the board of directors stated that the PGCA is a "collectors" association NOT a shooting association. Therefore that was as far as the youth program went.

[Bill Zachow]

I think you will find that the baby boomers were the last of the collector generations. As they, and we, go to our final reward, the value of collectables will continue to decline. Unless it is a fantastic, one of a kind type item that may appeal to a new dot com type billionaire, the price is going down because the demand is going down. This is true particularly for collectables that appeal to a small group. Double guns, coins, antique oak furniture, early cars (pre muscle) and early americana all fall into this category. Appealing to the younger people isn't going to be effective as 1) they are not interested 2) even if they were interested most do not have the $$$ even for the reduced level of collectable Parker prices.

[John Campbell]

Well... this has certainly been uplifting.

Now all I have to do is die amidst my collection of fine guns.

Which my children can then sell to a scrap metal dealer, and order carry out pizza with the proceeds.

I need a drink...

[Craig Larter]

All I know is I am going to continue to buy great guns and my son will have to figure it out when I go to the happy hunting grounds! This thread is getting a little depressing for me.

[Rick Losey]

well- we antique a lot as a hobby- one thing I have commented on lately is seeing more young people at shows than in the past few years

that may not translate to Parkers - as hunting declines interest in any hunting gun will follow

[Harryreed]

Part of the distraction is black rifles. You can buy parts and components for them and build a very accurate rifle in some excellent calibers for under $400. 300 blk, 450 bushmaster, all fun to hunt with. Don't misunderstand, I love classic doubles and old levers. I have and enjoy both. However, building an accurate black rifle is fun to plink with and can be done on the cheap. IMHO

PS. I still hunt with a reproduction Sharps 45-90.

[Dean Romig]

Maybe "guns" are just too controversial for the X-Gens and Millenials ?





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[Daryl Corona]

I believe everything runs in cycles. My first gun, bought for me by my father, was a Win. mod1400 semi auto. I hunted with that and an old Belgium Browning until I was 21 or 22. Then a friend of mine wanted to trade his VHE 20 for that Browning which I did. Shortly thereafter an older member of my gun club wanted to unload 2 more 20ga. Parkers. I bought them for a song then but really was'nt hooked on SxS's for another decade or so. Well we all know how that worked out.

My point is I believe that we are just in a down cycle related to the stagnant economy of the past 8 years. I am a small businessman who relies on other small businesses. The future of our economy just was'nt bright enough for the expenditure of any surplus cash on that next Parker. Now things might just brighten up a bit. The looming ban on lead shot would have made our guns obsolete. Now I think we have an administration in place that will not be assaulting everything that has to do with firearms.

I know Dean has his grandson Cam involved as well as many other members that have their children and grandchildren involved. I have two grandsons who are chomping at the bit to shoot and hunt with Pop. They will be shooting a SxS. We can only encourage them to enjoy what we love and hopefully they will be the next generation to take over the reigns.

[Pete Lester]

I think it would be interesting to know the statistics of membership in the PGCA, median age of members and average number of years as a member. I think the data will show we as a group are growing older with fewer new younger members joining to replace us. There is no larger double gun collectors association than the PGCA, our statistics would be and are telling of the double gun market.

Young people are growing up in an amazing age of technology, they have grown accustomed to the latest and greatest gadgets. Their taste in firearms, antiques and motorcycles reflects this.

I saw a decline in hunting coming first hand when I worked for NH Fish & Game. I looked at the statistics for the number of 16 year old youth completing Hunter Education class for 2003. Age 16 was the first year they need the class to get a hunting license. I compared that number to the number of cities and towns in NH. At that time we had less than two 16 year old youth completing Hunter Education when divided by the number of cities and towns in the state. We are now 14 years later, the youth are not large enough in number to replace the generation that is leaving the sport due to health and or death.

[Rich Anderson]

A lot of good points have been made but a future sxs enthusiast has to be just that enthusiastic about these guns. I didn't start out with Parkers and Pre64 M70's but the enthusiasm for them came from reading about them and with the Parkers my Grandfather shot s lot of SXS's but the Parker was his favorite according to my Mom who would tell me about him. He died before I was born but the lure of the Parker was fostered by my mother.

I believe the market for a lot of things (unless I'm buying them:rotf:) is somewhat soft and that's due to several factors both economic and social. I have given much thought lately to thinning the guns. I don't really need the money but what do I need 40 M70's many in duplicate calibers or 15 or so 16's & 20's.for? Like Gary said there are guns in the safe that haven't seen the light of day in a decade. I have no family to leave them to so I might just as well sell them at least I have an idea of their value.

IMHO a person needs to have a desire to appreciate the craftsmanship of something that is no longer made be it a Parker, Winchester or a nice piece of solid oak furniture. My wife and I like antique furniture and there is a piece at a local shop that I would love to have but there is just no room for it.

At the end of the day I like my old guns and if there is something I want I'll buy it. I'll sell what I sell and die with the rest of them I guess.

[John Dallas]

My two oldest grandsons are nationally ranked sporting clays shooters, and hardly know how to look down a set of S x S barrels. My pumps and S x S guns are nothing but a curiosity to them

[charlie cleveland]

all i need is one more parker...i too believe thatinterest in old collectable items are slowing down...remember the big crowds that use to be at the drag strips there pretty thin at our track...charlie

[Ed Blake]

The argument could be made that there was a "bubble" that burst and Parker values have yet to recover. Casual buyers and late comers to the Parker gun have lost interest and are trying to get some of their money back. The internet drove up prices and created a buzz that some tried to cash in on, who are now left holding the bag and dumping their guns. Small gauge guns are in demand, but even those prices seem to becoming ridiculous IMO. A bubble in small gauge guns? All these things have a cycle. Demand comes and goes.

[davidboyles]

It seems like when I go hunting these days I am the odd Duck with a gun that is nearly twice my age and I just turned 70. I agree with what you are saying the new hunters are more interested in horsepower and glitz not beauty or patina that was borne through caring hands. Everytime I'm in the field these days and I'm not with fellow SS hunters I am surrounded by plastic , carbon fiber and stamped metal if it even has any real metal on it. When I show up with a classic double like we all share passion for it takes a person pushing 50 to even ask "What's That" and then they may perk up to a response of it's a Parker, Model 21 ,LC or Ithaca. Something about shooting these old guns that hell most of the time don't even fit us modern frames makes me feel special and privileged to own and carry on the life of that fine piece of equipment. My last trip abroad was purposely made to do what the old explorers did and that I read about as a kid. that was to carry around a double barreled 12 pound 125 year old gun with hammers and shoot a 2000lb Cape Buffalo. Done just as dead as with a plastic stocked 416 Remington. As I preached in the article "American Heritage My Parker " I hope we can reach enough young hunters to carry the torch and handoff to the next generation. Too long winded I know but it's been on my mind as well as the rest of the readership. Thanks

[Christian Gish]

My guns are shooters. That's what I bought them for. I enjoy having them and using them. In the aggregate they will be worth more than I've paid and in the meantime I've had the pleasure of their company.

[Dean H Hanson]

Hello to all, As you can see I am a Lifetime member of this wonderful association. I maybe the last of my generation to be given a Parker, and instead of selling it, found a new and much needed lifetime hobby. That black, cold, intimidating, heavy, scary, shotgun at the top of my fathers gun rack gave me new life. For those of you who fear that our passion and love for these beautiful works of art will be simply become extinct, I give you Dean and Matthew Hanson. Two brothers, 45 and 52, who have taken up the Parker pride in full force. We are only two, but if we influence two.... and they influence two... well? The hunters are dwindling in numbers and yes collectors will probably own the high grade Parkers, but our VH's will go out shooting. I will probably never own a "collector" Parker, but if I did, I would shoot the living daylights out of it. Appreciate what we have. I listen to Russ, Charlie, Dean, George, Brad, Mills, Josh, Brian, John, Bill, Gary, Destry, Robin, and well, all you guys. I don't post a whole lot, but this thread, well... I will try my best to bleed Parker case colors to any and all who want to see the best. My Fathers 10 gauge is in my care, for now, I will find a new caregiver when the time comes. I will be happy to do it!!!

Deano

[Dean Romig]

Mr. Campbell,
A reply to your question of an update on the youth program. The message I received was that the board of directors stated that the PGCA is a "collectors" association NOT a shooting association. Therefore that was as far as the youth program went.


I, personally, am of the opinion that if we can't or won't involve younger folks, even the youth, in the shooting of these fine old guns, then we have lost them. The guns need to be appreciated for what they can do and what the shooter can do with them. Along with an appreciation for the capabilities of the gun will come a respect and even a reverence that just might morph into the collecting aspect of it all. But it needs to begin with the use and shooting of them.


Me. Pellegrini, I fear we are missing part of the conversation that lead to that statement... I wonder if - without including anyone's name - you might let us read the entire conversation you had?

Best, Dean

[James J. Roberts]

I have a table at a gun show in Chantilly Virginia and see the decline in the dealers with tables with high end guns our better dealer have left and now we have people selling fudge,beef jerky,eye class's and pickles. J.J.

[Dean Romig]

The dealer drop-off at gun shows, I have been told by dealers themselves, is because so many of them do much better selling guns from their Internet sites. That's without having to pack loads of guns and related equipment halfway across the country. It's a matter of simple economics.





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[John Truitt]

Changes in social ideas/ interest, and economics are two big factors. Gun enthusiast are a small group of our population and side by side folks are an even smaller percentage of that population. That group is aging and we are unfortuntately loosing more than we are growing. I do believe we had a big bubble that started back in the 1990's and was carried into about 2006/ 2007. Events like the Vintage Cup and Southern Side by Side and other side by side shoots were born and created a venue for us to do our thing. Even more influential was the birth of collectors associations, ie: PGCA, that have been our base/ home of operations and center for information/ etc. Yes the internet has made the sell and purchasing of guns more readily available and conventient.
All of these things play a role in how it is all going/ will go/ etc. IMO the base upon which it all matters is in exposing people to the guns. We as Parker enthusiasts are not only entrusted with the guns but also a responsibility to "pass along the torch" to our neighbors, younger generations, sons/ daughters/ wives (girl friends), etc. Opportunities exist. It is in how we perceive these opportunities that will determine the direction of our path. I believe, and maybe I am wrong ( I know I am wrong more than I am right), but I believe we hold the future of gun collecting in our own hands. I am certain it will not be conducted in the same manner as it has been in the past. Times they are a changing and we must be willing to adapt and adjust our course so we do not become extinct.
The prices for guns/ collectibles will vary as things go their cycle. People must see the object as valueable for it to hold any worth and be of any importance.

[Bill Murphy]

New blood in double gun use and collecting can start at your gun club. Kevin McCormack and I were raised from childhood in the same gun clubs. When we were kids, we were the only ones shooting double guns. Early on, Kevin and I only owned one Parker apiece. As time went on, we educated our fellow club members in the world of double guns, and now our shooting companions own hundreds of double guns and Kevin and I have been through hundreds of double guns ourselves. These people were not dragged, kicking and screaming into this world, they just watched and saw how much fun were were having.

[Eric Johanen]

I find that the decline in prices and those purchasing them is mostly due to the loss of economic gains for the middle class in the last 10 years and the lack of young people in the shooting sports. While there are young people shooting and more women on the clays course, It is not enough to maintain the market. There is growing participation for special side by side events, it is still a small niche. Develop a plan to draft a young family member or a friend with younger children or grand children into the shooting sports in general and side by side shotguns in particular is a slow process but the only one that holds out hope for the future. I have a friend or two that are shooting fine American and English guns and they in turn have interested their sons. They are selectively buying and all are shooting them both on the course an in the field. I have been lucky in that my nephew, who is in law enforcement is a shooter and has taken up the side by side habit several years ago due to my encouragement. I started him out shooting my best guns and he has developed a keen interest. In his early 30's and raising a family he is not an active buyer at this time. (he has an uncle that is doing that). He has access to my guns and has an appreciation for them. He will be attending his first 4 day side by side event with me this year and is really looking forward to it. He shoots them all very well and I do have to work to beat him for scores (to have young eyes and reflexes again). He knows what they are and their values and when my time comes, they will be passed to him. He in turn will pass them on to his son. I rest easy knowing that I will not have to sell any and they will end up being used and well taken care of.

[George Davis]

Just spent three days at the Las Vegas Show and a wonderful dinner and time at the Parker Banquet. In my opinion you would had to be blind not to observe the "Problems" we have with our hobby based on the last three days. First public attendance at the show was miserable at "best", second the average age of the vendors and attendees had to have been 70 or above, third Parker Banquet attendees was a "very mature group", fourth been going to this show for many years and the if you were a buyer you had a choice of some excellent Parkers at extremely reasonable (low) prices, finally almost no attendees under 40. If our hobby and passion for Parkers is going to grow and continue we must develop a organizational plan to help get the younger generations involved. I'm convinced with the depth, knowledge, skill, resource we have within this organization we can accomplish this critical task. But we better get started as out members are not getting any younger.

[Dean Romig]

I think we need PR reps to get the word out. We need to be seen on any and all kinds of media. Younger people need to see how much fun we have shooting these old side-by-sides at sporting clays, skeet and trap. I think we need links on our various websites to shooting-event videos that can be easily accessed right on our home pages. We've got to make it very easy for them - this is the generation of "instant gratification" so let's put it right out there. Some of you guys with "Go-Pros" take videos of your hunting forays actually shooting birds a-la Mike Smith, and get them to the folks who can post them up on the forums.
I know it's pretty hard in some parts of the country to get this kind of thing on TV but it can be done if we contact the right people at the right stations. I think most collector organizations are 'not for profit' so maybe some of this can be aired as a "public service."

Just a few thoughts, while we're brainstorming.





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[John Campbell]

Dean is on the right track. It's visibility and "acceptance" in the eyes of potential enthusiasts that can help reverse things.

Something we can do NOW, and with little effort, is to create a new home page button/link to "videos" and link to this Youtube selection:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=parker+gun+collectors


While I'm not sure that "killing birds" right off is a wise course, target shooting and the "History Channel fun" of old doubles certainly is.

In addition, the PGCA can partner with other double gun organizations to promote our passion through more refined videos, special events at the Southerns, revised promo ads in Shooting Sportsman, Double Gun Journal, etc.

But the focus should ALWAYS be on youth and NEW shooters of any age (under 80).

[Tad Tadlock]

My youngest daughter, Macey, is a member of the Junior Shooter's Magazine Shooting Team.

She has to come up with and write articles for the magazine to be sponsored on the Shooting Team. She wrote one about attending an Appleseed shoot and she has written a couple of reviews.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=737&pictureid=8709

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=737&pictureid=8710

As you can see above, she is shooting a double.

She likes clays and so that she and I can shoot more, I just purchased a Do All Raven Automatic Trap Thrower. I'll get her to write an review article about the trap thrower and get pictures of her shooting clays with her cowgirl double and with some of my Parkers.

[David Noble]

I wish this whole thread was in a members only forum. It pains me that interested visitors to the site will read this thread and decide that Parker collecting/shooting is a dying genre and not worth investing time or money in. Us members are already hooked and enjoying what we do, but the newcomers to the site can be easily turned away. There is no doubt that we need to advance interest in the collecting and shooting of Parker guns but displaying the dirty laundry for all to see is not good for our cause. I'm not attacking anyone here....please don't take it that way. I'm just saying...

[Mills Morrison]

I am going to break ranks and say I am optimistic about the future of collecting. I have wanted to be a collector ever since seeing my great uncle's gun room with guns all around it when I was about 3 or so. I wanted a Parker for years before I owned one and only got around to acquiring multiple ones a few years ago. Truth is, it is hard to be a collector when you are young and just starting out. Although the average age was pretty old in Vegas, there was a small but significant group in my age range. I predict more will come on as time goes by.

We can't rest on our laurels, though, and need to be proactive in attracting younger collectors and shooters. I had several conversations with members in Vegas about this issue and some good suggestions were made. I don't know if those suggestions will be acted on, but those might generate other ideas that will.

[Kenny Graft]

I invited my nieses boy friend to a preserve pheasant shoot last weekend. I asked if he had a shotgun to hunt with...yep...I got a Mossberg pump. So after much thought I offered to let him use a pretty nice L.C. Smith field 12 with 30" M/F barrels. We had 8 shooters, 50 birds doing a European type shoot, Hi overhead shots so the 30" barrels would work good! Ben got off to a slow start and fussed not having his Mossberg. Told him to cover up the birds, things did change and he started hitting birds hard. Big smiles now! He made some comments later in the hunt when we got the pointers out to find missed birds, we had some bonding time. At the end of the day I gave him the Smith gun, that young man is now hooked and was headed home to learn all about his new L.C. Smith double gun. He is a good kid...learning the plumbing trade, not a spoiled liberal type and I am sure he will keep that gun I gave him, he appreciated it!!! SXS ohio

[Tad Tadlock]

Pretty much the same conversation is happening on the SASS Wire, which is the forum for the Single Action Shooting Society.

Folks are concerned about the Cowboy Action Shooters becoming older and not being able to attract new and younger shooters.

I believe the reasons are similar in some ways. Shooting and hunting are no longer seen as mainstream activities by many younger folks. If their father or grandfather doesn't take them shooting or hunting, it's not happening.

I would imagine that many of y'all grew up just like I did, out in the woods with a .22 or a 20 gauge was just about an everyday activity. If you looked in the parking lot at my high school, there would be rifles and shotguns in gun racks in the back windows of at least half of the pickup trucks that were there. I know that there usually was in my old '68 Chevy. As soon as school was out we were going hunting. Ain't no way that is happening nowadays.

Today more kids grow up in town instead of the country. You can't run around town with a rifle or a shotgun like you could when we were kids.

[George Davis]

My post is in no way trying to hurt our wonderful organization, my interest is making it grow, be more inclusive to all ages and gender, grow, share the wealth of knowledge, friendship and passion our group has for our hobby.
The younger generations have grown-up with the social media, electrics, and instant information. Look at our children, grandchildren and even our great grandchildren I believe we need to be playing in their sandbox. Many High Schools, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts have video/film making programs, there are countless opportunities to have our members show/teach/share different information: stock making, engraving, rust bluing, case hardening, shooting tips, difference between trap/sheet/live bird guns, how to pick a piece of wood for a stock, science of reloading and pressurer, etc........! Match the depth of knowledge in this organization with the kids passion (electrics) and I believe they will soon be hooked on our love of Parkers and double shotguns.
Think about it "videos" developed by kids posted on our web page; parents, grandparents and how many of their friends will want to see what they have done.
Collecting, shooting, hunting will only be their next step.

[Jay Oliver]

I got bit by the Parker bug a few years ago. I bought my first Damascus GH right when I turned 40 and I am 43 now. I am closing in on a dozen Parkers and finally building a gun room. I think part of the issue is conveying the knowledge that you can shoot these old guns and that you really are buying a piece of history. It would be nice if RST or Polywad shells were at more retailers and other shooting places(Addieville East in Rhode Island does carry these shells). Most younger shooters will not likely be reloading. I think some of the main sources of resistance are:

- Knowing what and where to buy
- How do I know if a gun is safe to shoot?(and having confidence in it)
- Where to get shells?(Most people are not ordering shells online). Most of these guns cannot be shot with big box store ammo
- The gun has tight chokes(I didn’t know about spreader shells until I saw them on RST’s website)
- Who can work on it?(Most people haven’t boxed up a gun and brought it to FedEx or UPS) Most of us know by now that sending a gun to get fixed is a simple process.

I had all of these questions when I bought my first Parker, but after 3 years I know all the answers to the above concerns and sometime can’t sleep because I am thinking of a Parker. Every time I shoot sporting clays I am always asked about the Parker I am carrying. I usually have to explain Damascus and low pressure shells. One of the most common questions is “Where do you even get a gun like that?.” Remember most people haven’t bought a gun online or through the mail either(without seeing it first).

I do think more casual vintage or sxs shoots might help if they’re easy and fun. I think anything promoting the “romance” of a fine double gun(not to mention the level of quality and possible investment value) could also have a positive influence. Basically, you have to convince the youth of today that it is worth some of the “hassles” to shoot these guns. Which we would all agree it is and to go even further the only way we want to shoot.

I am trying to do my part, I brought a former student of mine who is 29 to the Southern SXS and let him shoot one of my guns. He loved it! Perhaps best of all, my 5 year old daughter thinks any long gun is a Parker shotgun. As she should…

[Robin Lewis]

If you want to further the cause and want to take a young-n along, bring them to one of the shoots that are posted here on our forum. That way you introduce them to Parker, double guns and some fun shooting too.

Many of you may not be aware of the "Calendar" link found at the top of this page (and all forum pages) where you can both enter information on a shooting event and also look for one that has been scheduled.

As you guys post events for shooting, I try to enter the dates on that calendar for you, but I admit, I probably don't get them all. It would be better if you entered them directly.:whistle:

Now that you know the Calendar exists, I suggest that more forum users use it. :banghead: Take a look at the start of every month and see if there is something you might like to attend. More than just once a month may be advised, especially if people start entering more shooting opportunities on their own!

Another good place to look for Parker shooting is by clicking the Events link on the left side of the PGCA home page. If someone knows of a PGCA shoot or gathering event, and wants it posted there, please PM me with the information (but it must be double gun oriented).

I have the feeling these tools are not used by most forum members but if we start using them it may enhance our shooting opportunities, yes? :corn:

[Bobby Cash]

I'm sure, not helping (at least here on the west coast), is the pending California lead ban.
It has helped me see the writing on the wall and led me to the divestiture of many of my vintage doubles.

Sorry to be the guy betting on the No Pass line.

[Jack Damon]

I've only been a member for a couple years, but I read almost everything in our forum. I rarely post, but I do have an opinion. I'm close to 70 years old but I've only been collecting Parker's and a few other high grade SxS's for several years. A few years ago prices for Parkers, Fox's and Ithaca's were "up there", and examples of some very fine guns could be found at the larger gun shows. Not anymore it seems. I've been to the last three gun shows advertised for my area and only one of them had a display of higher quality SxS's, whereas 5-10 years ago there were always vendors present selling high quality guns. My opinion is that the majority of our younger generation has virtually no interest in vintage shotguns, nor firearms of any kind for the most part. While "our" generation was raised with all types of guns in our homes, and shooting and hunting was very commonplace (at least where I was raised), today's youth have been indoctrinated and brainwashed by our schools, colleges and the media on the horrors of guns and shooting and hunting. If you DO find young folk who have any interest in firearms, it's usually the polymer-frame handguns and/or the black rifles.
As an older guy, I DO believe our love of vintage SxS's, especially the quality guns of the last century, is dying. I am not convinced our passion for Parker's, Fox's, Ithaca's and LC's will transcend to the younger generation that just seems more interested in technology than anything involving the great outdoors. Just my $.02

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

I might only get one convert out of 100, but whenever I visit a skeet or trap range that has more younger folks shooting than dedicated trap or skeet shooters, I make it a habit of bringing 3 or 4 side x sides with me and make sure that at least one of them has damascus barrels. In between rounds I approach some of these young folks and ask to see their pumps and semi-autos. By expressing an interest in their guns it invariably leads to their asking me about my Parkers or other vintage doubles. It's truly surprising how many young folks have never even seen a SxS, much less had the chance to use one. As often as I can, I give them a Parker and tell them to shoot a round on me. Many of them finish the round, ask a few questions, and then ask if I would mind if they shot another round. This, I believe, is the best way to introduce new shooters to our SxS fraternity. It seems to work for me, especially here in New Jersey where most of the hunting lasts for 30 minutes, or until all of the stocked pheasants are shot before your feet get cold.

[Patrick Lien]

Well I like a good debate so I am going to offer a different opinion. I think the SxS shotgun shooting and collecting world is alive and well and the opinion that it is all old guys with no new blood is a farse as well. Collectible firearms are no different than collectible cars, art, coins, etc. and it takes four things in my opinion for a person to be active in the hobby or to be a collector and/or shooter of these wonderful guns.

1. Passion
2. Knowledge
3. Money
4. Time

While a young person may have one or two of the items on this list they very rarely have all four in regards to old SxS shotguns in their 20’s or even their 30’s. I think serious double gun hoarding happens in your 40’s and 50’s and is usually influenced by family or friends. I think shotgun collecting has a sweet spot from age 40 – 70. This is where passion, knowledge, money, and time all come together. I think this was true 50 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago, and today.

There was a recent post on Parkers listed for sale in a gun list from 1968 and some follow up post from our members who were young men at that time and how their finances would not have allowed them to purchase these Parkers. Why would it be any different for a 20-25 year old today? I am sure there are exceptions but this is my observation.

Patrick

[Eric Estes]

I agree with Patrick. As long as the 2nd amendment is not left by the roadside collecting and shooting of fine guns will continue. The size of the community may wax and wane over the decades, but as long as we are still allowed to posses them it will be there.

[George Davis]

New Mexico High School Cheerleader

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RKGp_tneP48

PS: Kayla already has Antelope and Mule Deer hanging on the wall and now a World Class Desert Bighorn Sheep. She has been shooting and hunting since she was a very girl.

[Craig Budgeon]

I live in the Rochester, NY area. Within 6 hours I can drive to 8 gun restorers many of them well known to this forum. Two of the owners have personally expressed there concerns about the average age of there clientele and the future of there vocation. I found my own way to the hobby as did everyone whose story I know did. In 45 years I have never met a person who credits another person for leading them to the hobby. In the early 1960's my village was surrounded by farmland and pheasants. The vacant farmland is filled with housing tracts and the pheasants you see can only be found in pictures today.

[John Allen]

I have been in the high grade gun business in one form or another for 40 years.What I have seen is a separation of the market for fine guns.When I started most nice doubles were bought by shooters who also collected.The last 10 years there are fewer shooters and more pure "collectors".Really pristine guns of any kind now bring more that they ever have. However,nice guns with any wear at all are dropping in price.Another factor that has not been mentioned is the large number of guns that are coming on the market now.As we baby boomers downsize or pass away more and more collections are coming out.Economics 101,high supply means lower prices.

[Bill Holcombe]

Ok...how to address this...Another topic on another gun forum about young people not collecting or buying classic guns. These things are cyclical like all things. Part of it I am quite certain has to do with the fact that the guns have in my opinion become too valuable too quickly. As a member of that group below the age of 40, it is hard enough at this point in our lives to buy a house for our family, we don't have disposable income to currently go investing in guns at prices that are at an exorbitantly high value. You all must remember that yall got into buying these guns when they were pennies on the dollar compared to what these guns are selling for now. Combination of older collectors falling off and younger collectors lacking the finances to pick it up at the high (see inflated (my word)) prices that they currently are at. Hey, I absolutely love love love parkers, colts, winchesters, brownings, mustangs, remington/russel art, Henry rifles, etc etc etc. I do not mean to be insulting but some of you lose context of how you started collecting these toys and what prices/stage in life you were at. People always say it's because we don't appreciate it, true but also, at our stage in life we also aren't in the position to have the disposable income to pay the large sums of money that all these guns and vehicles and art and other brick a brack that we collect. The market is currently down though I am certain it will indeed recover. And yes, sorry to disappoint but the younger generations will continue to collect and value. It is just in a trough at the moment. I will say that to me at least I am not seeing cheaper prices. 4 years ago when I got into this, damascus D's could be had for less than 2k....not really seeing those at the moment. Higher grade guns I have no clue about as I will never own one...but don't worry others my age will.

[Bill Holcombe]

Regarding interest in shooting.... at least in my small part of the world, with a county population of less than 15k, we have a 4-H Trap and 22 teams that each have between 20 and 30 members paricipating. Ranging in age from 8-18.

[Eldon Goddard]

As a Parker enthusiast in his 20's, yes if only for another 4 months, I have done my best to interest people my age in vintage doubles even if I have literally had to give them away, no joke. I have never had anyone that I have taken shooting not immediately fall in love with these guns. You just can not compare a modern gun to a vintage side by side, but every time I ask why they do not get into vintage side by sides the answer is always the same.. money.

[Henry Verri]

If the new administration passes the proposed import tariffs of up to 35%, Would it greatly increase the value of imported guns if included in such regulations. Also would it give a small spike in value to all Parkers and USA made guns? Just wondering, and waiting for pundit replies and guidance.

[Rick Losey]

i thought the 35% was to items that were made in the USA and were moved out of the country-

in that case Purdys and H&Hs would not be affected, nor would CZs or Spanish guns

I doubt new gun prices ever have much affect on vintage gun sales anyway, a different group of buyers

[Bill Murphy]

I must mention that the lack of financial knowledge is rampant among young people today. They don't have any money because they spend what they have on crap and pay interest on every purchase, skewing the sale price. In 1969,I came out of the Army after making from $78.00 to $214.00 a month for two years. I left a pair of Model 21s and a couple of Parkers at home while I was gone. I bought a two year old Chevrolet and a Westley Richards shotgun the month I got out of the service. I was poor, raising kids, going to school, and trying to start a career. However, I never stopped buying guns, whether they were in decline or going up in price. That is what you are supposed to do, whether it is your 401K or your stock portfolio. Maybe a little education on the use of the dollar would help to get younger people into our hobby.

[Bill Holcombe]

But that is what a lot of those in my generation are doing Mr. Murphy. We saw our parents get caught unprepared for retirement and rather then spending money on guns we are paying off our homes, avoiding debt on cars, and investing heavily in our retirement. Sure, there are plenty my age who are loose with their money, just as there were when you were this age, but those were never the people who would invest in classic guns anyway.

[Kirk Potter]

I was watching a gun control debate not long ago and the person arguing in favor of tougher laws was lamenting the fact that although gun ownership is down among young people, support for tougher gun control was about the same as other generations.. In fact, in some cases people aged 50+ were more likely to support new regulations.

[Eric Johanen]

Just about every time I'm out on the clays course, someone asks me what I'm shooting. Always a side by side and a box lock, side lock or hammer gun. Smokeless or black powder loads. I shoot all of them about the same for score and explain to them what it is and some of the finer points of each. I offer them a opportunity to shoot a pair or more and many take me up on the offer. They are interested in the gun and loads and are a bit surprised at how well the black powder loads perform on the targets. It offers them an appreciation for what went before and is still useful in the field and on the course. I believe I'm seeing a few more doubles on the course in the last year or so. LC's, Parkers and a occasional Fox. Not too many English or Continental guns fielded but I'm covering that category. Some times it's a new purchase of a family gun pulled out of the closet and shot for the first time. Our Sport/Hobby is never going to be gangbusters but it has the potential of growing is we all do our bit one at a time.

[Sam Ogle]

We can all tell a story: I was hunting Pheasant in South Dakota some years ago, and was in a group of Minneapolis business men who all had autoloaders of some kind. One guy asked me what that gun I had was: I said "It's a Parker." His reply: "Oh, I never heard of one." At the end of the day, another guy said "Let me see that gun of yours; you were really killing birds with that little popgun." (A 16 gauge) These weren't stupid guys; they just were of the next generation.

[Phil Yearout]

We have to acknowledge that nostalgia plays a part in it; todays youth - unless they were raised with a bunch of old guys like us - didn't grow up with double guns, or even pumps...for most of them - if they grew up hunting at all - it was autoloaders and everything was higher, farther, faster, and more of it.

Take a look at the hook 'n' bullet magazines and websites; except for those catering to the hobby aspects of outdoor sports, you won't find many articles or ads about vintage guns or guys with bamboo rods and brook trout. Mostly it's pictures of guys (and gals) in camo with painted faces who'd look more at home in a military skirmish than a bird cover, and ads for rods that will make anybody cast a mile with giant fish and slogans like "fear no fish!"

It's hard for a guy with two shots in his gun who comes home wet, tired, and happy to have one bird in his bag to compete with a video game where you can shoot a hundred of something anytime you want to from the comfort of your armchair. I few will get it, but not many.

[Robin Lewis]

Maybe we should submit some double gun articals to popular magazines to promote ourselves? Dual submit to Parker Pages and XYZ. Who knows, maybe they would print it and give some unknowing shooter/hunter some insight to what we kike to do.

[John Allen]

Nostalgia plays a big part as does availability.When I started in the business in the late 1960s,if you walked into a show with a nice Parker,Smith,or Winchester,you drew a crowd. Everyone wanted to see one because they thought they were rare.I looked on Gunsinternational this morning.They have 471 Parkers listed.When you can go down a list like that and price shop,it really takes some of the mystique out of the experience.Really good ones are rare,but the average beginning gun buyer does not know that.

[Dean Romig]

You all must remember that yall got into buying these guns when they were pennies on the dollar compared to what these guns are selling for now.

I think you paint with much too broad of a brush. I began actually collecting only sixteen years ago (though I had been shooting Parkers off and on since about 1960) and many of us began even more recently than that.

Some of you lose context of how you started collecting these toys and what prices/stage in life you were at.

The very first Parker I bought was a 1898 DH 12 gauge for the sum of $2,000. and it was not easy to convince my very frugal wife of the 'necessity' for such an extravagance. :shock:

.






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[John Allen]

Dean,just to get back to your main point about prices.I bought a 12ga.DHE 11/2 frame at the Louisville show 2 weeks ago for $2300.It had a little honest wear but was in super mechanical shape.Nice "average"guns are going down in price.Mint,rare,or special order guns are going up.

[Dean Romig]

There is a DH being offered for sale right here on our Members Only section at a very low figure, for what it is. I'm shocked it is still for sale. Some of this makes no sense to me these days.






.

[John Allen]

One thing that might help is to try to get local gun clubs to have a few SXS only events.It gives them something new to offer their members and might stimulate some interest in doubles.Maybe the PGCA could even sponsor such an event.Most of the live pigeon shoots now have SXS only races.I have sold a few #2 frame tight choked guns to those guys.I don't see why the sporting clays crowd would not go for it.

[Dean Romig]

Dave Suponski puts on a SXS shoot each spring at Addieville East Farm. The owner/operator of the place along with his staff are always excited to see us come. I'll be bringing my grandson again this year.
Dave's son Danny, used to come to all of these events.... before he discovered there was an opposite sex.... And that brings up yet another obstacle we need to recognize in younger folks - girls and peer pressure.





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[Rick Losey]

And that brings up yet another obstacle we need to recognize in younger folks - girls and peer pressure.
.


I think they were around even back when we were young too- it was a temporary condition -


if you had the base interest established - guns and hunting eventually re-floated :rotf:

[Dean Romig]

But they have always required a serious divergence of discretionary funds :eek:






.

[Rick Losey]

But they have always required a serious divergence of discretionary funds :eek:
.

which we would have blown on fast cars anyway :whistle:

[Mike Franzen]

I'm late to the party but I think it is a two fold condition. One has to do with the fact that there are way more people out there who have never heard of Parker Bros. then there are who know what they are. I know it's hard to believe but go ask 10 random people if they know what a Parker is. The other condition is the price and value of these guns is driven by collectors, not hunters or shooters. The collector group is relatively small right now and they know about most every high grade Parker out there. When the economy improves more will enter the collector group and prices will go up again. Of course this is just MHO and not based on scientific research.

[Mike Franzen]

Actually there is a 3rd condition. Internet sales. Never before have so many Parker's been available to many for purchase. Supply has outstripped demand.

[Phil Yearout]

Maybe we should submit some double gun articals to popular magazines to promote ourselves? Dual submit to Parker Pages and XYZ. Who knows, maybe they would print it and give some unknowing shooter/hunter some insight to what we kike to do.

Not to discourage anyone from doing just that, I'd suggest that if you do it, you write it from the technical side, or from some perspective other than trying to tell people how cool it is to shoot old shotguns. I had the editor of a prominent shooting magazine tell me that space was "too precious for human interest pieces", and that they aren't what anybody wants to read anyway. And as the publisher of a mag I used to work for told me, "magazines don't make money selling subscriptions, they make it selling advertising."

[Bill Murphy]

Many of the serious collectors I know did not start collecting when Parkers were "pennies on the dollar". They started when guys like Kevin McCormack and I showed them our guns, let them shoot our guns, and gave them a way to get into one of these guns. It tickles me when someone asks me questions about my guns. The disappointment sets in when they don't ask. I have taken a really hot single trap to my club twice lately for a show and tell and a shoot and tell. Both trips to the club, different members asked me what "such a gun" would be used for. They had no idea what a single barrel trap gun was or what it was used for. These were experienced shooters past 50 years old. We need to tackle these guys and educate them, and then locate their checkbooks.

[John Campbell]

While I am enthusiastic about the promotion of the double gun sports, I am unabashedly pessimistic about the future of paper-&-ink magazines, newspapers, and other such media.

The future of communication is electronic/internet. If you're not there, you don't exist to the young audience. Or any audience 10 years from now. Like it or not. This is why the future of our sport/interest must make the transition to new mediums.

Video production and YouTube is the path. Along with vertical cable TV channels dedicated to outdoor sports or country topics. If "Top Shot" can survive on cable, WHERE is the segment that features sporting clays with double guns? Answer: It is yet to be made.

Shooting industry manufacturers have SAAMI to give them a collective voice. We need something similar...

But, if you insist on some paper media, THIS is a good option for image awareness:

http://gardenandgun.com

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

I think one way to slow down the declining prices would be for dealers/owners to establish a base line. What I mean is this, lets set a price on an average condition Trojan 12 gauge at 700-800 dollars...a VH at 1000-1200...a PH at 1400-1500...a GH at 1700-1800, etc. etc. So, lets say you are a dealer, and you see one of the above guns selling for less than the amounts shown. If you buy it, you remove it from the market and can set your own selling price. I understand that you may not sell it quickly, but if you remain firm a base price will be established. If a private seller needs a quick sale, and offers their guns for less, buy it and list it at the base price. If there are 471 Parker's on gunsinternational, and say 300 of them are in the lower grades, and we buy them, now there are only 171 left and they will probably be high grade, or high condition, guns that are for advanced collectors that may have the disposable for such guns. I think what I am trying to say here is that we, as collectors/shooters have to establish a guns value and not leave it to those folks that will only buy a gun if they think it's cheaper than it should be. I've never seen a 60,000 Range Rover sell for 30,000 just because there are alot of them out there.

[Phil Yearout]

Video production and YouTube is the path....


Yes, but look at what IS on there: Hunters with bows that are really nothing more than guns with sights, triggers, et al, whooping and hollering when they kill a big buck that they've been watching for months with trail cameras or maybe even baiting. Then they sit there and wait until he comes by, shoot him, and brag about their "hunting" exploits. And it seems that's what most folks want to see. I know: I'm a member of a family full of 'em.

[Phil Yearout]

.... And that brings up yet another obstacle we need to recognize in younger folks - girls and peer pressure..

Hmmm...now that you mention it, I do remember my amount of hunting and fishing declined dramatically when I realized you could attract more chicks with a guitar than with a shotgun :).

[Dean Romig]

I think one way to slow down the declining prices would be for dealers/owners to establish a base line. What I mean is this, lets set a price on an average condition Trojan 12 gauge at 700-800 dollars...a VH at 1000-1200...a PH at 1400-1500...a GH at 1700-1800, etc. etc. So, lets say you are a dealer, and you see one of the above guns selling for less than the amounts shown. If you buy it, you remove it from the market and can set your own selling price. I understand that you may not sell it quickly, but if you remain firm a base price will be established. If a private seller needs a quick sale, and offers their guns for less, buy it and list it at the base price. If there are 471 Parker's on gunsinternational, and say 300 of them are in the lower grades, and we buy them, now there are only 171 left and they will probably be high grade, or high condition, guns that are for advanced collectors that may have the disposable for such guns. I think what I am trying to say here is that we, as collectors/shooters have to establish a guns value and not leave it to those folks that will only buy a gun if they think it's cheaper than it should be. I've never seen a 60,000 Range Rover sell for 30,000 just because there are alot of them out there.


The Blue Book of Gun Values pretty much "establishes" baseline prices on the doubles we collect and shoot, but it seems that that publication has a pretty hard time keeping in step with what is actually happening in the used gun market scene.
The other problem is that a seller (not necessarily a dealer) is too eager to lower his price for the sake of making the sale. There are 'predators' who watch these offerings and pounce when the price drops to something below wholesale. It's a vicious cycle - it's like a reverse auction and the seller is rarely totally pleased with the outcome.

Regarding the $60,000 Range Rover selling for half of its actual value... I hope we never see this happen with classic American doubles, though I am beginning to see evidence of it recently... or is it just a "market adjustment"...?






.

[John Allen]

The Blue Book take 11/2 years to gather data and go to press.The day it is printed the prices are obsolete.They have great research articles and a lot of important information,but the prices are worthless.Especially on older guns.What most people do not realize is there are no fixed prices on any high grade guns.The price is dependent on condition,rarity,and geographical location.

[Dean Romig]

What most people do not realize is there are no fixed prices on any high grade guns.The price is dependent on condition,rarity,and geographical location.


And the sell price is dependent on how many actual buyers are prepared to pay for it.





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[John Allen]

You got it.The best thing to do is for the younger guys to take advantage of the great buys coming their way and us older guys enjoy the guns we have and be able to say when you get to the end "I had some great guns,great dogs,great friends, and killed a hell of a lot of birds"

[John Nagel]

I was just discussing this with someone less than an hour ago, funny to see there is a thread started here...

I am a millennial. I'm 27 and I dont know anyone else my age who is into these guns. I have one very dear friend who is a fellow grouser who hunts exclusively with a D grade 16 and a repro 28 but he is 10 years older than me. We have both discussed whether we should stop buying parkers because they may drop sharply in value as we get older and maybe we would be able to pick up really nice guns for less money down the road.

I dont know what to tell you guys, I'm embarressed to say that the majority of my generation isnt at all interested in hunting. Also most of my friends look at me like a grew a second head when they find out what I have paid for relatively inexpensive Parkers.. And most of my friends are young professionals who could probably afford Parker guns if they were interested in them..

A good friend of mine who is a well paid attorney hunts exclusively with a franchi over and under. Its quite sad that I have to look over at that when I am out in the field with him..

Just 2 cents from a millennial.

[Pete Lester]

I am curious, what were the prices on Parker's after WWII and prior to Johnson's first book on them? Did his book help to create a mystique and improve the market for them? What were the prices and market for composite barrel double guns prior to Sherman Bell's articles in the Double Gun Journal? Same thing for 2 7/8" 10ga guns prior to his articles vs. today. What role and effect do outdoor writers have in this situation?

People don't get their information from books and magazines much anymore. Even web pages like this are becoming passe. Social media is how younger people connect and get information, how do classic double guns and hunting fit into that world?

[Dean Romig]

Fear not John, tha vast majority of our generation are not interested in hunting either. Though some of us grew up hunting on our own land, most never had that opportunity... and far, far fewer today are able to enjoy it. 'Urban sprawl' is as much the culprit, coupled with the ignorance of the folks who move from urban areas to the former farmlands which ,now, are the 'No Discharge' suburbs.





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[Dean Freeman]

My name is Dean. And I'm a Parkaholic.
You tube is my television now and I'm depressed by the lack of Parker Gun content found there. Larry Potterfield has a fantastic series where he completely rebuilds an old lifter. Aside from that there's little else. I'm not saying that more content on YouTube would be a panacea, but it would be a start. Imagine watching Brian Dudley at work, or seeing some nice collector pieces go afield. There's no reason our members, or even the PGCA couldn't have a channel on YouTube spreading the good word.

[Channing Will]

Has the PGCA ever considered a group page on Facebook to attract new members? The American Custom Gunmakers Guild and other similar organizations have group pages. There are options to create both private and secret groups. There are younger hunters like http://www.northwoodsr.com and http://uplandlowlife.com who share their passion for hunting and double guns on Facebook, Twitter, etc you just have to be on these sites or you may never hear about them. They also work with RGS and Orvis to promote hunting.

[Michael Moffa]

Ok, I was at the vegas show. Tried to buy a project b grade hammer gun from a large dealer in the upper midwest. Gun was all there but needed to be unpolished and tightend and a good cleaning. I offered 11% less than asking and didn't even get a counter offer to where we would have ended up as a good deal. Nope it was take it or leave it. Now I've dealt with the young man's Dad and God rest his soul things would have been different. I was able to acquire a nice 16ga and a 12 ga CH project for more than the B grade. I left the show happy but slightly confused on the market.

As to girls joining the Parker afflicted, count my daughter as one. I plan to infect her boyfriend also. We control this aspect. Now that the political pendulum is swinging back talk up your affliction to your coworkers. Take them to the range if interested. If we each got two in our lifetime to become Parker fans then we double our numbers.

[John Nagel]

A lot of good points have been made but a future sxs enthusiast has to be just that enthusiastic about these guns. I didn't start out with Parkers and Pre64 M70's but the enthusiasm for them came from reading about them and with the Parkers my Grandfather shot s lot of SXS's but the Parker was his favorite according to my Mom who would tell me about him. He died before I was born but the lure of the Parker was fostered by my mother.

I believe the market for a lot of things (unless I'm buying them:rotf:) is somewhat soft and that's due to several factors both economic and social. I have given much thought lately to thinning the guns. I don't really need the money but what do I need 40 M70's many in duplicate calibers or 15 or so 16's & 20's.for? Like Gary said there are guns in the safe that haven't seen the light of day in a decade. I have no family to leave them to so I might just as well sell them at least I have an idea of their value.

IMHO a person needs to have a desire to appreciate the craftsmanship of something that is no longer made be it a Parker, Winchester or a nice piece of solid oak furniture. My wife and I like antique furniture and there is a piece at a local shop that I would love to have but there is just no room for it.

At the end of the day I like my old guns and if there is something I want I'll buy it. I'll sell what I sell and die with the rest of them I guess.

Rich, can I apply to be your adopted son? :rotf:

[Victor Wasylyna]

Consider this thirty-eight-year-old's opinion: Some shotguns are collected because they are "fine," while others are collected because they are "nostalgic." In my opinion, firearm nostalgia is dead. The next generation does not have memories of running home from school to grab the old gun and hit the woods. They did not grow up with guns. Sell your Model 12 while you still can. (I, personally, have no interest whatsoever in an old pump. My first duck gun was a cheap pump and I hated it!) Fine guns, however, will always be in demand, but the market for fine guns is small. Is your Parker "fine," or just "nostalgic"?

[Dean Romig]

Victor, would you kindly tell us your definition of "fine"?

Descriptive 'words' are subjective.





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[Frank Allegra]

As with Dean, I would also need to hear your definition of "fine".
In my opinion the Model 12 was one of the "finest" pump guns ever produced. Are you talking about condition or a certain type of firearm?

[Victor Wasylyna]

Victor, would you kindly tell us your definition of "fine"?

Descriptive 'words' are subjective.





.

Dean:

Of course everyone is entitled to their subjective opinion as to what is a "fine" gun. However, there are (objective?) factors to be considered, such as brand (e.g., Parker), quality/condition, and perhaps rarity. A "wow" gun, not an everyday shooter. A high condition, high grade gun. A pristine VHE (like the one JLoew just sold me) versus a beat-up DHE.

-Victor

[Victor Wasylyna]

As with Dean, I would also need to hear your definition of "fine".
In my opinion the Model 12 was one of the "finest" pump guns ever produced. Are you talking about condition or a certain type of firearm?

Frank:

Why does a pump gun appeal to you? My guess is nostalgia. Perhaps the Model 12 was the greatest (finest?) pump gun ever made. (I have no opinion on that issue.) It's still a pump gun. It's missing a barrel. It requires the user to pump his support arm rather than simply move his trigger finger to the subjacent trigger (or just pull the same trigger a second time). Nothing wrong with being nostalgic, so please take no offense to my remarks. I was just offering up my speculation as to future demand.

-Victor

[Frank Allegra]

Victor,

To me a fine gun is one that has a high degree of design, hand built quality and craftsmanship. It has nothing to do with action type. Any Parker is nostalgic. Guns with provenance command a premium. I just needed your clarification.

[Eric Ross]

Hi, First post and first day on the form as a member. I want to put a few of you to ease by saying that I'm 28 years of age and an avid SxS collector with a special passion for Parkers. Im sure that I'm a small section of my age range to have this passion but fortunately my generation has become a large part of the firearm society and with the hope of less gun bans and regulations maybe it will give them a chance to appreciate the finer firearms.
Thanks for the years of good reading on this form!

[Mills Morrison]

Welcome Eric! Glad to have you on board

[Eric Ross]

Thanks for the welcome.

[Josh Loewensteiner]

Guys- for what it's worth, I see Parker guns every single day of the week in my work with Julias. The biggest difference I see right now is at the very top of the market. Markets are lead by leading buyers - whether it's real estate, cars, guns, etc. For a while we had a steady stream of very very wealthy people that would reach quite deep to own a great Parker. We still have them but not in quite as great a quantity of NEW deep pocketed buyers as we had 7-10 years ago. If the top end of the market is a tad softer so is the rest of the market.

The Parker market is alive and well- just last week a 38 year old PGCA member sold to another 38 yr old PGCA member a great VHE at a fair price. The difference in today's market and the market of several years back is that to sell anything it has to be fairly priced/within reason. If it's in the stratosphere your leading buyers won't stretch as far today as they once did, but I feel those days can return if we continue to create interest in these guns and have folks join the PGCA. In my opinion this current market is a great buying opportunity for smart and discerning aficionados!!!

[Michael Moffa]

Do any of my fellow afflicted follow the car auctions? I jsut watched the Scottsdale auction and most of the cars were from the 60's and prices have retreated about 35% since the Zero was elected. In 2009 restored number matching big block '60 era Chevelles were in 90 to 100K neighborhood. Now same cars stretch to reach 65k. Big block Corvettes were 150k now bring about 100K. Early classics from the twenties have retreated even more. Cars from the 50's are also falling. But classic Ferrari's have shot way up. Any Ferrari less tahn 30 years old is treated like a used car. I saw a low mileage 360 Cabriolet go for 75K. The announcers said it was well bought.

What does this have to do with us? Well Parker prices are about the same or a little lower over the last 5 years. Our hobby has held up a little better than other classic pass times. I foresee a steady but small slope rise in prices in the next few years as Baby boomers finally retire to other pursuits.

The Gen x are just getting into their accumulation years with the Y's behind them. I see the big jump happening with the Millennial's as they are more likely to discern and appreciate real things versus the fad toy of the minute that they have been raised on their entire lives. This sort of explains the Steam Punk genre. Real iron, wood and leather you can grasp with your hands. The future is ok and does anyone want to buy some beenie baby's?

[John Campbell]

Your point on classic cars - especially muscle cars - is well noted. And in my humble opinion, they will never bounce back. Why? Because later generations have NO personal and nostalgic connection to these commodities.

They don't dislike them. They simply don't have any affection or romance connected to them. Thus, they aren't going to pay Big Money for something that Dad went street racing in.

The same ethos exists with SxS double guns. Younger generations do not have a personal connection to them. If anything, it's the O/U that they are familiar with. They have to be "convinced" through some means that an SxS has values. Even then, they are unlikely to pay big money for one. Especially one made by a company thats been defunct for over a century.

On the brighter side, I'm still having fun with my own doubles. For what that's worth.

[Bill Holcombe]

.






.

Yes Dean, but if you started 16 years ago, you weren't the young crowd which I was explaining not having the discretionary income to buy these guns at the moment. You were at a later stage in life and felt like you had some money.

[Bill Holcombe]

Many of the serious collectors I know did not start collecting when Parkers were "pennies on the dollar". They started when guys like Kevin McCormack and I showed them our guns, let them shoot our guns, and gave them a way to get into one of these guns. It tickles me when someone asks me questions about my guns. The disappointment sets in when they don't ask. I have taken a really hot single trap to my club twice lately for a show and tell and a shoot and tell. Both trips to the club, different members asked me what "such a gun" would be used for. They had no idea what a single barrel trap gun was or what it was used for. These were experienced shooters past 50 years old. We need to tackle these guys and educate them, and then locate their checkbooks.

Again, my comments were in regards to why so few people in their 20s or 30s are into parkers. Guys in their 40s or 50s or 60s are a different question.

[Bill Holcombe]

There is a DH being offered for sale right here on our Members Only section at a very low figure, for what it is. I'm shocked it is still for sale. Some of this makes no sense to me these days.






.

Dean,

I could be wrong, I am currently scratching an itch for pre 64 model 70s and I will admit prices are a little more affordable currently. The really high end ones are still a little over priced in my opinion, but the actual shooter condition guns are being more realistic.

[Dean Romig]

It's all about "supply & demand" today.

The "high end" ones are in pretty short supply (outside of collections) and consequently command a much higher price.... Why? Because people (few that they are) will pay that higher price. A well-used Damascus GH 12 gauge, on the other hand, isn't and consequently, doesn't.






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[Craig Larter]

Dean is correct in his last post. But personally I am enjoying the period of soft prices. As they say nothing solves low prices like low prices, it always balances out the supply and demand.

[Bill Holcombe]

I just got back from my first trip to the wichita falls gun show....Not a lot of collectibles period. 3 colt SAAs-2 1st gen, 3 pre 64 model 70s but one had the checkering completely gone, a savage fox and some British maker side x side hammer gun I didn't recognize, a nitro coach gun, and a bunch of 1903 springfields, mausers, and mossin nagants. Other than that a lot of Remmys, savages, Rugers, kimbers, and black guns..and knives, and parts, and such. Wasn't a bad show, I just had expected a little more collectible type guns in this part of the world. I didn't have anything to spend anyway.

[Bill Holcombe]

People were buying though, I can say that.

[keavin nelson]

I am fortunate in having a son who greatly enjoys the Parkers, but in early 30s, not much disposable income to buy his own, so my guns get regular use which is nice. He has one I built for him on his 16th birthday.

As to price, I attended a show yesterday, and inquired on the price for a 16Ga VH on an O frame, with a badly fixed broken stock and forend checkering that looked like a beaver did it, thinking I could buy it reasonably to restock. The elderly gentlemen told me $4000. I put it back on the rack!

I take my son's friends out to shoot sporting clays with my doubles every chance I get. And at least two of them have expressed an interest in acquiring a vintage double.

[Patrick Lien]

I think we can say that the Parker Ephemera market is alive and well.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=172497189246&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=83501-4276&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=1&_sop=10&_dmd=1&_ipg=200

:)
PML

[Rick Losey]

I think we can say that the Parker Ephemera market is alive and well.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=172497189246&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=83501-4276&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=1&_sop=10&_dmd=1&_ipg=200

:)
PML

or hope springs eternal

[John Campbell]

For what it's worth:
I just spent some time at a noted "antique arms" show in the Great Lakes area. As a result a few things were glaringly obvious to me:

1) At least 80% of those attending were old men. With grey hair, canes, walkers, limps, and AARP memberships.

2) Same for the table holders.

3) The show tables were strewn with old guns with wooden stocks, surface blemishes and varying patina. Old dudes weren't buying them. And the few attendees under 60 didn't want them.

4) It appeared to me as though the "Boomers" were finally unloading their collections. en masse. But the market had passed them by. And prices were generally low. But still, very little was being scooped up.

This may be an anomaly, but I don't think so. I've had at least half a dozen good English doubles on consignment at a VERY well known midwest shop. Exactly ONE has sold in the last 11 months.

But I'm not worried. I've got a plastic-stocked, black-anodized AR-10 that my son can make a tidy profit on when he retires.

[Rich Anderson]

With "collector quality" firearms weather they are shotguns or rifles condition determines most of the price. Rarity as in a small bore Parker or a Pre64 M70 in say 7MM or 300 Savage raises the price bar but without condition you won't realize top dollar.

[John Dallas]

The OP observed that Parkers seemed to be getting cheaper. Economics 101 tells you that the only way a commodity declines in price is either an increase in supply (That ain't happening with old Parkers) or a decline in demand. For all the reasons discussed above, the answer is - The envelope please - Tah Dah - "decline in demand" - and IMHO will only get worse as us oldies stop buying and our wives sell off our stuff to a shrinking crowd of folks who want these guns

[John Allen]

Actually there are more Parkers on the market now than I have seen in 40+ years in the gun business.This morning on Gunsinternational there are 471 Parkers listed.You cannot judge the market by what you see at shows now.Shows are now the wholesale supplier for out of production guns of all kinds.The retail sales take place on the internet.I know of several dealers who only go to shows to buy and then post the guns on the internet.That is the new successsful business model for modern gun dealers.I do agree that the demand is down for the average "shooter"grade guns.High condition and rare guns are bringing more than they ever have in my experience.

[jay shachter]

Hey Guys,

It is a concern of someone like myself who has chosen this as a business and a means of support for my family and retirement. I ask these question often, and others have asked me a lot over the last few years. What I see is that there are replacements for the older gents that are no longer shooting and are therefore selling there guns. The replacements are the 45-55 year olds who have a better than average income, some time to have a dog and read the sporting journals that tout our style of guns, have killed their fair share of game with modern guns, and have become nostalgic with their middle age sanctum. They want a car like they had in college, a motorcycle like they had in high school, and a gun that they just read about or maybe their uncle had. They are our new buyers. The problem is that we, the baby boomers, outnumber the newcomers by a substantial number. The replacements are not coming in at the rate the older gents are going out, but I believe "nostalgia" will always occur. Many experienced shooters decide that the romance is better than the technology, the history is more interesting than modern, and as some other writer said, "it is now how many you kill, by how you kill them" or something like that, becomes the thoughts of the hunter when they wake up to go afield.

There are fewer buyers, no doubt. But I don't see it falling away, just balancing out. Keep in mind, there are fewer good guns out there as time goes by, and that will help keep prices close to what they are now.

Jay Shachter, President
Vintage Firearms, Inc.
www.vfiguns.com

[Bill Murphy]

Jay knows the market and knows that the market for above average guns will never go away. Average guns will flood the market and be sold at lower prices, but scarce guns in minty condition will always be sold at high prices if properly marketed. Remember when we were kids, surplus guns were sold at ridiculous low prices, $9.95 and up for great military collector guns that are now sold for thousands. The same thing will happen with average bird guns in the next 20 years, except that they will not appreciate at the same rate as the $9.95 guns did, or maybe they will. It is not a great loss to those of us who chose wisely in our purchases over the last few decades.

[Rich Anderson]

I think the future money is in quality small bore guns.

[Dean Romig]

Always has been Rich...






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[Rich Anderson]

I firmly believe I have bought my last 12 gauge. The only shotgun I have for sale is a 12.

[Brian Stucker]

My hunting buddy is 30 and loves collector shotguns. He says he will buy everything he can afford, put them in a gun room he will construct, and smoke cigars while ruminating about the days take. He is trying to marry my daughter. Stay tuned

[Craig Larter]

I went to two big decoy auctions in New England last week. Prices were STRong!!!. The Copley sale was near 5million with an average lot price of $27,000. dollars! Auctions now make the market in high end collectibles. Most of the bidders were on the phone or internet. Decoy shows and gun shows are dead in my opinion.

[Dave Tercek]

I agree they are about dead, and I really really miss them.
Dave

[Tom Jay]

Went to National Gun Show (Chantilly, VA) this weekend and there were only 4-5 tables throughout that featured vintage shotguns, including Parker, Elsie, Lefever, Browning O/U and A5's. It's billed as the nationals largest regional gun show. Every table seemed filled with defensive type guns, hand guns of any/all make, AR rifles and .223 ammo. Show was crowded. Full of tatoo's, midriffs and Dailey Duke's. Not exactly a Parker crowd. Picked up some good deals on shotgun ammo.

[Kevin McCormack]

You forgot to mention the amazing selection of body armor, MREs, designer purses, knives & tomahawks, martial arts geegaws (think throwing stars & nunchucks), and bra holsters for concealed carry. Also (almost forgot) the dangerous-looking middle Easterner selling the wonderful selection of fudge.

[James L. Martin]

Don't forget the beef jerky and pickles.

[John Campbell]

... Also (almost forgot) the dangerous-looking middle Easterner selling the wonderful selection of fudge.

You sure it was fudge... and not C4?

[Dick Miller]

The promoters of that show have done an admirable job of flushing it down the toilet, as they have successfully done to their other venues.

[Bill Murphy]

But they are multimillionaires several times over. The fudge guy is a great feature, right up there with the jewelry girl.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Gentlemen, At the last Board meeting we brought up the youth shoot possibility again, and it was decided to go for it I guess it is all right to say a few things about where we are, RST has agreed to furnish all shells, Trophies for different age groups best overall a 16 gauge trojan, redone by Bachelder, At present we are waiting to hear back from Kempler at deep river for our time slot he agreed to do this last year, as soon as the times are decided on it will go to Dean for a full page add for the winter and spring addition, several f us are working to make this happen it will be open to all members and families niece, cousins etc Parkers only this year, we will be asking for help from the membership to get your sons grandsons, nieces, cousins etc to Deep River next spring We can make this happen, details later, Gary

[John Allen]

Jay is totally correct in his analysis of what we are going through now.There are more guns being offered to a smaller market.Economics 101, high supply means lower cost.There is an exception to this that Jay touched on but did not elaborate.The market that is out there has turned into a more pure collector market where mint original guns are bringing more than ever.Hunting guns with even slight wear are dropping in price.Keep your heads up and keep working on the younger folks you know.Things will stabilize and good quality will always be in demand.

[James J. Roberts]

Bill,Annette is the multimillionaire she got the homes the plane and Steve the big bully is out of the picture.:rotf: J.J.

[Terry Hobson]

I agree that the very high end market for doubles will persist, smaller supply of those guns that the very wealthy can pursue.

I just don't see how the rest of the market can hold steady. Seems to me the the number of bird hunters are dropping for obvious reasons. I am about the last of the Mohicans in my area. Historically many doubles were made and used for upland hunting. I know some doubles were used for waterfowl, I doubt if many are used for this now. The only young wing shooters I know are duck hunters who use plastic guns. Doubles for sure aren't used for clays in any appreciable numbers. I attended the Ronald McDonald House charity shoot this summer in Evansville IN, about 250 shooters---0 side by sides present.

It would by good to be young now and have the next few decades to purchase some guns.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Sounds like Chantilly has changed a lot since I was there with my P grade steel barrel collection It is the same way here, I was asked to display at a regional show that was supposed to bring a lot of collectors in I had a 4 table display and the guy beside me was selling beef jerky, I only counted 5 or 6 real collector displays It takes a long time to put together a nice display and set up at shows, Gary

[John Allen]

Terry,Just keep shooting and showing your doubles whenever you can.You will be surprised how many younger guys will be drawn to them when they see them in action.I have a small group of serious hunters who are all shooting doubles now.I am the senior at 68,but most of them are in their 40s.They have come to enjoy shooting the classics just by seeing a few of us bringing our guns to clays shoots and dove shoots.

[John Dallas]

Sorry guys. I think there is a lot of whistling past the graveyard. We can talk about high grade, or small bore, but the answer is that our hobby is dying. No different from hot rods and many other passions from our childhood.

[Kurt Sauers]

Ok,I'll throw my 2 cents worth in here. I haven't owned a shotgun or been hunting in 20 years. Took my daughter's lab pup for some runs and I've got the bug again. I bought 3 guns this years, a 16 vh , 12 ph , and a 16 ghe. The ghe just arrived at Bachelder's today and haven't seem it yet. I think I've got each one at a fair price. I look at GI and GB daily. Compared to the shape mine are in there's a lot of beat up guns listed at 1000 to 1500 more than I paid. There are some dealers out there that are grossly overpriced. In my unlearned opinion the guns here are always fairly priced i wish i could afford collectables but I'll have to stick with shooters. 2 cents is about all I've go left in the budget for this year. There's still a couple I'd like to get just for hunting, a 16, 26" barrels for woodcock and a 12 30" for late season pheasants.


As to younger hunters. My oldest daughter's husband ,out of the blue , said hs wants to go bird hunting. After much internet searching he settled on a gsp. I think he'd be fine just going to pheasant, quail farms. Im going to try to take him to some of the places i used to go woodcock and grouse hunting . The last time i was at their house he showed me a 870 he's got. My god,it felt like a lead pipe filled with cement. I told him i got a couple of sxs's 100 yeras old. Aren't you afraid they're gonna blow up was his response and he's never even heard of Damascus. I think there's a chance i can convert him unlike my youngest daughter who's all camo plastic and ducks. When i get my ghe home I'm ill let him handle his and then mine and tell him if you want to be a upland bird hunter these are the classic upland bird hunting guns. Try it ,you might like it.

[John Allen]

Mr.Dallas,It is not dead,just changing.

[John Walters]

I have to agree interest in old guns is fading a sad thing for lovers of quality and hand workmanship. The real issue is that the newer guns are very capable and real value to young shooters. I have mixed feelings about this as I want to see younger people shoot and hunt the new technology in auto loaders has come a long way from the old 1100. New Beretta autos and Bennelli guns are tough as nail as hard to beat for the performance and money. I shoot them all Berettas O/U Perazzi Rizzini O/U they are all fine guns but I have 5 Beretta autos 2 20 ga a AL1 and a 302 plus 3 303's 12 gage 2 sporting 1 trap and I can shoot them just as well as my other O/U guns. They work but there is no pride of ownership and love of quality involved that is what is sad to me. At my age it is the fun factor that exceites me last week I shot a Martini 12 gage single shot what a blast and everyone wanted to try it. I have a Husqvarna hammer gun I shoot also and that is what helped me get a Parker Hammer gun. I have been encouraging my friends to get into vintage guns for hunting and shooting. The one thing that the newer guns have is composite stocks and multy shell compasities which is so good for duck hunting especially salt water.

[Rich Anderson]

When the newer guns fall into a state of disrepair and cease to function the Parkers, Fox, Winchester 21's and such will still be going strong. I hope there are still places that they can be used and game to be used on.

While a Benneli might work ok and be affordable just as a synthetic stocked rifle that you can buy as a complete package for $400 will, neither has any soul, there is no allure of times past, no mystery, no pride in craftsmanship.

At the end of the day what really matters is young people getting involved with the shooting sports and if they do it with a Benneli or a Remington or an AR15:eek: then it's better than having them sit around the house playing video games.

[John Campbell]

...While a Benneli might work ok and be affordable just as a synthetic stocked rifle that you can buy as a complete package for $400 will, neither has any soul, there is no allure of times past, no mystery, no pride in craftsmanship..

Sadly, this is the crux of the problem. Today's society has virtually NO appreciation of history, heritage or craftsmanship -- all values associated with the Parker and other fine doubles.

Thus, we have utilitarian cars, degrading societal values, cable TV... and plastic stocked guns with 10-shot capacity and spray paint finishes. Perfect for slaughtering game by the cubic yard.

Sorry, but it won't get any better.

[Robin Lewis]

When the newer guns fall into a state of disrepair and cease to function the Parkers, Fox, Winchester 21's and such will still be going strong. I hope there are still places that they can be used and game to be used on.

While a Benneli might work ok and be affordable just as a synthetic stocked rifle that you can buy as a complete package for $400 will, neither has any soul, there is no allure of times past, no mystery, no pride in craftsmanship.

At the end of the day what really matters is young people getting involved with the shooting sports and if they do it with a Benneli or a Remington or an AR15:eek: then it's better than having them sit around the house playing video games.

I have thought about this for some time and my observation is that only a very few of the younger group will have these feeling (which I share with you Rich).

Here is why I say this:

Our shared feelings of 'nostalgia' are based on our knowledge of history AND the world that these guns were born into. The younger Americans, for the most part, don't have any nostalgia because they don't connect with the past, as we do.

When we were young, we learned history in school, our parents world talk about 'the old days' and how the family handled hard times as the family sat around the dinner table and we listened. We studied the past by watching 'news reels', collecting baseball cards, gathering up old glass insulators or bottles, searching antique shops and using old 'stuff' rather than throwing it away. We collected coins and stamps and when we did, I'm sure we would wonder who might have used it; did Lincoln hold it or was it at the Little Big Horn? We were made aware of the past and we carry that with us today.

Now, look at the current generation: They don't learn history in school. Their parents (us) are too busy to sit around on the porch or at the dinner table (family dinner at the same table?) to talk about .... They don't collect anything to get a feeling of history. They are consumed with 'now' and rarely consider the past. Their interests are in computers, the internet, cell phones, graphical games; all of which change so fast that they work to keep up with the future, not remember the past.

I have little hope that those under the age of 35 will ever come to think of these guns in the same way we do. They will never comprehend the talent it took to create them without a knowledge of detailed history.

The lack of history knowledge is the root of many areas of my concern about what life will be like for my grandchildren.

[Kirk Potter]

The best way to get people interested in vintage doubles is to take them hunting.. I think once you get someone out in the woods or in the field it's a natural progression to vintage doubles. I'm 31 and just recently started upland hunting within the last 5 years, as soon as I hunted for the first time behind my cousins English setter I was hooked. Then I wanted to learn everything and read everything I could find on the subject. That naturally lead to Parkers.

[Ted Hicks]

While I don't have the shooting experience of most on this board, I've been around bird hunting in the Northeast for over four decades in New York, Vermont and Maine. We commonly encountered other hunters and they typically shot SxS and O/U guns out in the field. Within the past decade or so I've seen many more pumps and semi-autos, or shiny new O/U guns. While it is good to see younger guys and gals participating, I agree that there seems to be much less appreciation for vintage guns, and many valid factors for that have been mentioned in this thread.

For me, there is a quality in these older guns, and Parkers in particular, that I have difficulty putting into words. I've referred to it as a "certain richness of character" that newer guns, even high-end guns, don't seem to have. I am always quick to say that this is my personal perception and I do not mean to insult anyone who has chosen a newer gun, or infer any less quality in their choice.

For some, they may just have never been around older guns and don't know about them. I frequently try to engage others in what these guns mean to me. Most are surprised that I know the month and year that the gun was made, where it was shipped, it's grade and options, type of Damascus, engravers by name, etc. I get odd looks when I say: "this gun is coming up on its 116th birthday next month." For many, they "just have a gun" and it meets their needs which is perfectly fine with me, but I take it as an indicator that there is decreasing appreciation for older guns.

One factor that has not been mentioned is that many opt for a single barrel or O/U gun because they don't like the SxS sight picture. Much of what you see in writing today seems to point towards a single barrel sight picture as an "easier" or "recommended" option for new shooters.

I shot my very first round of Sporting Clays two Sundays ago and it was a very interesting (and humbling!) experience. I group of guys agreed to take me with them to show me the course and they were very generous with coaching and calling my missed shots. I heard "behind on that one" and "stopped your swing again" a lot.:whistle: Another one I liked was "you knocked some dust of that one, but we don't count those."

There were at least 50 shooters there in all, and I was the only one with a SxS. By far, most were shooting new/newer custom O/U guns that were specifically designed for the sport. As a side note, almost all 12ga too; I saw only one other 20ga shooter. Only one older gentleman asked me about my Parker and his comment was that he did not like straight-grip guns. While my shooting was not on par with many that day (53/100), I had a blast and I am looking forward to many more rounds with my vintage guns.

[John Walters]

Here is some good news a lot of sporting clays shoots have different classes SXS/ Pump /subgague so that is a big plus for SXS guns

[Rich Anderson]

The shooting venues are there it's the younger participants that are lacking.

[nick balzano]

Amen Phil most of the shows on the outdoor channel make me vomit