Food for thought

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Just talking to another PGCA member, about damascus barrels. I have found and also heard of others who have a steel barreled Parker that the serialization book says is damascus, A lot of these were probably sent back to Remington because the mindset was that damascus was dangerous to shoot thus rendering the gun useless. The Remington factory if you inquired about Damascus would send you a letter saying how dangerous damascus was and should not be used. I have a letter like this that was sent to an individual that inquired about his damascus barrels.A lot of barrels were sent back to the factory to be changed out with steel barrels, Sometimes a date code will specify such, other times no date code and you have to guess. My question is what happened to all the damascus barrels that were replaced with steel? all the major gun factories eventually went to some sort of steel barrels some used interesting marketing to aid sales. I think most was just that, a marketing ploy to increase price on a certain steel, I guess most of these beautiful damascus barrels were destroyed can you imagine between Parker, Smith, Ithaca,and the other manufactures just how many that amounts too! Just thinking Gary

[John Campbell]

... a marketing ploy to increase price on a certain steel, I guess most of these beautiful damascus barrels were destroyed can you imagine between Parker, Smith, Ithaca,and the other manufactures just how many that amounts too! Just thinking Gary


Two points:
First, fluid steel barrels were a LOT cheaper to make. THAT was the driver to move away from Damascus. In a word, the issue was profit. Not public safety.

Second, Yes. ALL those "dangerous" Damascus barrels had to be destroyed/melted down for railroad spikes, etc. You can't dis an object for alleged danger, then allow a secondary market for it.

Lawyers won't allow that...

[Dean Romig]

I have two such letters from managers at Remington addressed to Parker customers. We can't be sure if they just believed the hype that had been foisted on the shooting public since about the turn of the century - or if they really knew the truth but perpetuated the lie for the sake of profit...?

From what I understand, Babe DelGrego had first-hand knowledge of hundreds of Damascus and other composite barrels that, at the time of the cessation of Parker production or soon thereafter, being hauled out the back door along with lots of other 'obsolete' parts and machinery and buried there just behind the building. This was told to me by Lawrence recently.






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[Drew Hause]

Parker- America's Finest Shotgun by Peter H. Johnson
"All of these barrels and tubes used by the Parker were made in and around Liege, Belgium. So far as the knowledge of still-living Parker officials goes, none were ever successfully made in the United States. These barrels, which were imported as 'rough tubes,' with a low tariff were reasonable in price and very beautiful; but with the advent of progressive burning powder after World War I they were doomed as they were unsafe to use with these new and more powerful powders. So at that time Parker Brothers, certainly not to be left behind by such a plain and inescapable necessity, discontinued the use of them and started making their own barrels from the latest American steel that had been developed during World War I.
It is interesting but hardly surprising to note that when Parker changed from figured barrels to those made of fluid steel the factory officials destroyed under a hammer all the barrels that they still had in inventory rather than run the risk of these barrels ever being used."

I suspect any remaining 'rough forged tubes' went to the WWII steel collection.

[Robin Lewis]

Maybe they went here?
http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/ORIGINAL_DAMASCUS_BARRELS.html

[Dean Romig]

Parker- America's Finest Shotgun by Peter H. Johnson
"...but with the advent of progressive burning powder after World War I they were doomed as they were unsafe to use with these new and more powerful powders.

I suspect that Mr. Johnson may have been innocently perpetuating the 'Dangerous Damascus' myth that we all know today to be untrue. A great many of us shoot Damascus barreled guns with modern powders. The thing we have learned NOT to do is to reload our own shells with a weight-equivalent measure of modern progressive smokeless powder that was measured in black powder back in the days before smokeless.


I would suspect that had fluid pressed steel barrels been in use during the time that the modern progressive burning powders were developed and put on the market, there would likely have been a lot of blown fluid steel barrels... and what would the gunmakers have blamed it on then???





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[Rick Losey]

Maybe they went here?
http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/ORIGINAL_DAMASCUS_BARRELS.html

those are unfinished tubes - new old stock he found somewhere

Greener just did some new guns with recently discovered original tubes

[Drew Hause]

Robin: Peter has been at the Vegas show in years past, with some of his tubes. If I run into him, I'll ask.

[Kevin McCormack]

I hope you mean Peter Dyson, not Peter Johnson!

[John Campbell]

those are unfinished tubes - new old stock he found somewhere

Greener just did some new guns with recently discovered original tubes

Last time I visited Greener's David Dryhurst, he told me he'd found a trove of "NOS" Damascus blanks up in Scotland. They were well over a century old. Maybe Dyson's hoard is related to that treasure...

[Kevin McCormack]

Last time I visited Greener's David Dryhurst, he told me he'd found a trove of "NOS" Damascus blanks up in Scotland. They were well over a century old. Maybe Dyson's hoard is related to that treasure...

On a driven shoot in Scotland in 2004, our host invited David Dryhurst to dinner as our guest. The opportunity to talk to a real gunmaker was one of the most informative and enlightening evenings I ever spent. At that dinner, David alluded to the most recent discovery of these Damascus barrels mentioned in this thread.

He likened the event to the exploration of the treasures of King Tut's tomb - "...wonderful things!". Later we found out that our host, a Greener fanatic, had contracted David to build the first 'post-modern' 28 ga. Greener game gun with Damascus barrels. It is a thing of beauty and a true work of art.

[Drew Hause]

W.W. Greener produced new shotguns with damascus barrels in 2007-2008.
From the Greener website in 2007:
“Barrels - are made of the highest quality steel and bored to maintain the famous choke boring improvements, made by W W Greener in the 1870s, to optimise shooting performance, and to ensure patterns of shot guaranteed to meet customers' exact requirements whether for game, wildfowl or clay pigeon shooting. A few pairs of guns are being made with interchangeable steel and Damascus barrels.”

Courtesy of Vic Venters (Dec. 2008), who wrote an article in the Sept/Oct '07 issue of Shooting Sportsman regarding the Greener guns:
“They are indeed newly made damascus barrels, built on vintage tubes that David Dryhurst - Greener's master gunmaker - has been collecting since the '60s and '70s. Some are old Greener stock, some are English and no doubt some are Belgian. A few of these sets came from Dyson...They are not lined. The guns are being made in 28-ga up through 12, and maybe in 10-ga. At least 25 of these damascus-barreled guns are made or are under way, and I believe more have been ordered since I last asked. At the time of my writing, none had failed English proof. The guns are proofed under standard CIP pressures per the particular gauge.
Most are on sidelocks; some are on reintroduced “G-Guns” - Facile Princeps actions with Boss ejector work. Greeners are a small best maker - but demand has been so great that I am told they have again closed their order books. They were the last British maker to manufacture their own damascus tubes, and are the first to again offer them in commercial quantities.”


New Purdey hammergun with old 3 Iron Oxford tubes, offered by Griffin & Howe 2013

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19228742/407674819.jpg

[George Davis]

I've bought several damascus blanks from Peter over the last several years. Still trying to convince myself which project gets new damascus barrels. He's had both 12 and 16 gauge barrels in the past. Very pleasant gentleman and knowledgeable about the barrels.

[Dean Romig]

Do we know what quality of Damascus (e.g., 2-iron, 3-iron, 4-iron crolle) Peter might have available - or might be available from other NOS sources?





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[Drew Hause]

Courtesy of Peter Dyson "These original Damascus tubes were made in Belgium around 1890 and have been in storage since then. They were discovered and shipped to England in Spring 2003. The fine Belgian barrel makers Oscar & Lucien Delcour of J. Delcour-Dupont and E. Heuse-Lemoine of Nessonvaux, near Liege made these tubes."

All these appear to be 2 Iron Damas Crolle'

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/16082038/365859638.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Drew.

Can we presume they were all found 'rough' with no visible pattern?




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[Dave Noreen]

I would suspect that had fluid pressed steel barrels been in use during the time that the modern progressive burning powders were developed and put on the market, there would likely have been a lot of blown fluid steel barrels... and what would the gunmakers have blamed it on then???

Parker Bros. had been offering "Modern" steel barrels for a quarter of a century when progressive burning smokeless powders shotgun shells were introduced with Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X loads in 1922. Union Metallic Cartridge Co. began offering factory loaded smokeless powder shells in 1891, and Winchester a couple of years later.

The interruption of supplies of tubes from Europe by WW-I was probably the primary cause for the demise of Damascus barrels. Our thrift Yankee gunmakers never threw anything away!! We've seen examples of Ithaca guns marked as steel barrels that when refinished had one or both tubes of Damascus or Twist, yet nobody cried the dangers of Damascus louder then Lou Smith!!

[Drew Hause]

Indeed.
Wm. Powell & Son used "Fluid-compressed" Whitworth steel for barrels in 1875. The first Purdey Pair Nos. 10614 & 10615 were delivered January 1, 1880 with the “New Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel”.
Lefever Arms Co. was the first U.S. maker to supply Whitworth steel for their Optimus in 1887. Parker Bros. used Whitworth for the first AAH Pigeon Gun in 1894 SN 79964 delivered to Capt. Du Bray. Hunter Arms first offered Whitworth on the Monogram, A2, and A3 in 1895.
P. Webley & Son began using Siemens (similar to "mild" AISI 1020) steel barrels about 1880.
Hunter Arms was one of the earliest American maker to offer Fluid Steel on other than the highest grade guns. Crown steel first appeared with the Pigeon Grade in 1893, No. A 1 (SN 1130) in 1894, was also used for the No. 3 about 1895, and in 1898 for the No. 2.
Parker Titanic steel barrels were offered for Grades 3 - 6 from 1897 until the introduction of Acme steel for Grades 4 - 6 around 1910. The Grade 0 VH was introduced in 1899 with Vulcan steel, Parker Special Steel barrels appeared on the Grade 2 GH in 1908.
'Decarbonized Steel' barrels were offered by many U.S. makers by the late 1890s, some were “Special (Cold) Rolled Steel” to a higher tensile strength; Marlin & Winchester.
More here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

[Brad Bachelder]

Dean, we have several rough tubes from Dyson. They average 7 1/2 lbs, 39 " long, .946 OD, .510 ID.and very rough. Even so they machine very well.

Brad

[Dean Romig]

So I pose this question - Given that fluid pressed steel barrels had been in use since the late 1870's in England, and in the early 1890's or so here in America, and that modern progressive burning "smokeless" powder had come into use during the time when these barrels were in use along beside the far more numerous composite-barreled guns in use.... is there any dependable, documented evidence that ruptured barrels were caused solely because composite barrels (excluding cheap knock-off, low quality guns) could not withstand the pressures of these new progressive burning powders, and that the fluid pressed steel barrels (all things being equal) could? Meaning to say, independent studies, not the hype published by gun makers?





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[Bill Murphy]

Purdey is also back into the Damascus business too.

[Drew Hause]

I choose to believe what Parker said

Parker Brothers 1893 Catalog
“Our guns are bored on the latest improved system for shooting Nitros, or Smokeless Powder, and all our guns are tested with some one of the most approved makes, and a tag accompanies each gun, giving the results of such a (pattern) test.”

1902 Sears catalog No. 112
“THE PARKER GUNS: ALL ARE BORED FOR NITRO OR BLACK POWDER”

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24532497/411815688.jpg

More mythology, and myth busting here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LFnSG34k3mBhLEjEgU267wAlIa215MNVQZhIiY62Hx4/edit