Pattern Test?

[Jim McKee]

Did Parker pattern test all their 12 and 10 bore shotguns?
Was there a standard shot size used when pattern testing their 10 bore shotguns?
Thanks!
Jim

[Dean Romig]

From the records we have Parker Bros. probably patterned all of their shotguns. During various time periods they used various shot sizes, various sizes and shapes of 'circles', and various yardages at which they were tested.

Have you ordered a letter for a gun you may have in mind? There may be patterning records for your gun.





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[Drew Hause]

Parker SN 1500 (c. 1878) - 4200 (c. 1884) patterning was done at 45 yards in a 18 x 24 oval or possibly a rectangle. Between SNs 4500 and 86000 patterning was at 45 yards in a 24" circle.

After 1896, Parker used the standard 40 yards in a 30" circle. (Courtesy of Chuck Bishop)

12g Parker SN 71792 c. 1891 was patterned with 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 and 42 grains (3 1/4 Drams) DuPont Bulk.

A 1900 Parker hang tag states that 12g 2 5/8” chambered guns were patterned at 40 yds. in a 30” circle using a 2 5/8” shell with 1 1/8 oz. No. 7 chilled shot and 40 grains ( 3 1/4 Drams) of DuPont Bulk Smokeless powder. (Courtesy of Bruce Day)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24532497/410047689.jpg

1920s tags listed both 1 1/8 oz. and 1 1/4 oz., still with DuPont Bulk Smokeless.

A 1924 16g was patterned with a 2 9/16” shell, 1 oz. No. 7 Tatham chilled shot (291 per oz.), and 2 1/2 Drams Bulk Smokeless.

A 1925 20g tag lists a 2 1/2” shell, 7/8 oz. No. 7, and 2 1/4 Bulk Smokeless.

[Dean Romig]

You can usually determine the "choke" of a Parker by the number of pellets of a prescribed size within the circle at a given yardage.

For instance, 220 pellets of number 7 chilled in a 24-inch circle at forty-five yards would probably be full choke in a 12-gauge gun.

The tag shown however, is for a gun that would probably have been patterned at forty yards in a thirty-inch circle.



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[edgarspencer]

There are plenty of records indicating the customer wanted a particular shot size and quantity into a smaller circle. Most grouse hunters would find the info of a 40 yard test pattern useless, knowing full well their average shot was between 20 and 30 yards.

[Drew Hause]

What Edgar said
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20289

Scroll down a bit here for the pattern methods of other U.S. makers
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

Hunter Arms 1906 catalog courtesy of David Williamson

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24488932/412995344.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

I wonder if Parker Brothers subscribed to the same blarny about "less penetration in tight chokes" that Smith writes about?

[John Truitt]

Mr Murphy,

Could you please elaborate re: the penetration in tight chokes.
I don't understand.

Thank you.

John

[Jeff Kuss]

John,
Read the Hunter Arms catalog page that Drew included.

[John Truitt]

Mr Murphy refers to less penetration.

The way I read the article they seem to be referring to greater penetration with a full choke but less with something ultra tight like a modern turkey choke. they make no reference to the degree or measure of constriction to determine one vs the other.

Am I missing something?

I may be thinking too modern as in choke being determined by thousandths of constriction vs the actual down range pattern. IMO the actual down range pattern is the best measure but I was looking for more info to establish at what point or measure of constriction do we start to get less penetration (55 thous vs 60 or what? Is 40 thou the optimum/ etc)

Mr Murphy is and has a wealth of knowledge. I thought maybe he knew something beyond what was posted above.

[Drew Hause]

Bill doesn't believe this marketing verbiage either ;)

1908 Sears Catalog: "Shooting qualities- As before explained, the shooting qualities of these guns are unequaled for long distance killing, long range shooting, for penetration, pattern or target. Both barrels are full choke bore, so firmly constructed that unlike other guns, there is no recoil or kicking. That which in other guns goes into recoil in the A J Aubrey gun goes to give greater force to the shot."

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17474742/412702787.jpg

[Dean Romig]

That which in other guns goes into recoil in the A J Aubrey gun goes to give greater force to the shot."



I'll bet that single line of fabricated hyperbole, by itself, sold a lot of guns! :rolleyes:






.

[Drew Hause]

To be fair to the Hunter Arms ad guy, I interpret the "extreme choke" lack of penetration as "extreme choke for extreme range".

Unfortunately, the long range hyperbole was endemic among the folks in marketing :(

"Shoots perfectly at 80 yards."

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/399203606.jpg

"Effective range 80 - 100 yards."

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/402327480.jpg

"Effective range 60 - 80 yards"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/323518108.jpg

"Dropping 'em at 80 yards!"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/268801900.jpg

Not quite :nono:

Pattern testing by David Williamson with .042" choke 32" LRWF at a measured 80 yards using 3 inch Winchester (plastic) hull with 38.35 grains of Blue Dot, Winchester 209 primer, Winchester AASL wad, and 1 3/8 ounces of #5 nickel plated shot. The average number of pellets was 246 and measured weight 1.353 ounce. Number of pellets in duck for 3 shots: 5,6 & 6. Pattern % in 30" circle: 5.3 = 13 pellets, 8.1 = 20 pellets & 8.5 = 21 pellets.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17318961/411836838.jpg

[Dean Romig]

And only 2 of those pellets might have brought that 'duck' down.






.

[edgarspencer]

Gets you 2" closer Before you Pull the Trigger

[Bill Murphy]

I only know that a shot that comes out of the barrel, round, at 1200 fps, loses velocity and penetration at the same rate, regardless of choke. However, many gun companies, in the early days, made claims for more penetration than their competitors. My question was "Did Parker make claims like that?"

[Drew Hause]

"The Strongest Shooting"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/408159748.jpg

[John Truitt]

I think there is only one way to resolve this much debated issue of "long range fowling".

We need to have a long bird event at the Southern. Awards per gauge and then over all. Would be cool to see 12 vs 10 vs 8, etc.
Limit load to 1 1/8 oz of #7.5's

Make it a 80 yard target.

Fox vs Smith vs Parker vs etc etc etc

[Drew Hause]

No "Woolwich" allowed Dr John!! :rolleyes:

Someone might share the rules for the Fox Collector's "Bo-Whoop" competition

[Daryl Corona]

I think there is only one way to resolve this much debated issue of "long range fowling".

We need to have a long bird event at the Southern. Awards per gauge and then over all. Would be cool to see 12 vs 10 vs 8, etc.
Limit load to 1 1/8 oz of #7.5's

Make it a 80 yard target.

Fox vs Smith vs Parker vs etc etc etc

With all due respect John, I can't see where there is room for an 80 yd. long bird event at the Southern.

Let's not leave out the tightly choked 20's and 28's. They can be quite impressive on those long birds.

The Bo-Whoop at Hausmann's is THE premier long bird event. Please come join us in June.

[Bill Murphy]

We are talking penetration here. Penetration tests are so much more simple than pattern tests. Bring your telephone books.

[Drew Hause]

Looks like the hyperbole even hit Philadelphia ;)

“The Fox Taper Bore is responsible for the uniform pattern and maximum penetration which is attained in all Fox guns.”

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24488932/413071397.jpg

"Shoots Hard" Oct. 7, 1905 Sporting Life

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24189170/413071472.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

I'm sure the 1890 ultimate consumer took "penetration tests" with a grain of salt, the way we do today. "Unless"