Identifying a 1/2 Frame

[Paul Ehlers]

Earlier this month I purchased a VHE-12 gauge from one of the PGCA members from the for-sale section on this site.

There was an on going discussion in the ad thread about what the frame size was or could be for this particular gun. I've done some due diligence on this one since I received the gun and thought I would share my findings here for everyone to see.

Let start out by setting the table. This is a late production Remington manufactured gun with the typical Ilion features you would expect to see on a Parker of this era. It's a VHE-12ga sporting 28" barrels serial # 241657 which I believe was made in January 1941 if I'm reading the Remington codes correctly. The barrels are marked Cyl-Mod but actually measure .008 & .016 with wall thickness of .041 on each tube.

The confusion on identifying the frame size originated from the frame size stampings on the barrel lug. The seller originally thought it to be a one frame & others speculated that it could be anything from a 1 1/2 to a 1/2 frame based on the lug stamping. One of the members pointed out that the only way to truly identify a 1/2 frame is to measure the frame and compare those findings to the frame size chart in the Parker Story. I'll be adding some pictures of the measurements I made in additional postings so please stay with me & wait for comments until I get everything posted.

Here's a couple of pictures of the lug stampings. One is the way it was in the ad, the second one is colored with a sharpie for contrast. I'm sure you will notice what lead to the confusion about the frame size.

[Paul Ehlers]

Here's the frame size chart from the Parker Story.

[Paul Ehlers]

Measurement between the firing pins. The chart shows it should be 1 1/16" which would be shared by both a 1 frame & a 1/2 frame.

[Paul Ehlers]

Distance across bolsters the chart shows 2 3/16" for a 1/2 frame.

[Paul Ehlers]

Distance across hinge chart shows 1 1/2" for 1/2 frame

[Paul Ehlers]

Distance across breech chart shows 1 5/8"

[Paul Ehlers]

Height of standing breech chart shows 1 5/32"

[Brian Dudley]

That stamping on the barrel lug is correct for a 1/2 frame.

See the photo here of two NOS barrel sets. The one is a 1-1/2 and the other is 1/2. see the difference between the stamping. There really is not variation in the frame size stamping.

51871

[Rick Losey]

good presentation of the question

maybe this should be moved to the general discussion forum unless the gun is back up for sale

[Paul Ehlers]

I believe this one is a true 1/2 frame based on the measurements. It's too bad that who ever did the lug stamping had a bad day with numbers stamp & hammer.

Please let me know your thoughts on this one.

One last picture showing the holding fixture I used while doing the measurements.

[Paul Ehlers]

I just noticed that this got posted in the for sale section. I thought I was in the general discussion forum.

Would the moderator please move it to the general discussion section & remove it from here. I apologize for my mistake.

[John Dunkle]

You are all set Paul - no worries.!

John D.

[Bill Murphy]

You will find the 1/2 frame difference when you measure the width of the forend. Look at the chart.

[Paul Ehlers]

You will find the 1/2 frame difference when you measure the width of the forend. Look at the chart.

Please explain Bill. I didn't find any information on forend measurements. Wouldn't the width of the forend be based on the width of the frame at the hinge? Where can I find the data that confirms the forend determines what the frame size is?

[Bill Murphy]

Yes, the rear of the forend and the front of the frame are the same width. The 1/2 and the 1 are different. The 1/2 is the same as the 0.

[Paul Ehlers]

Thanks for the clarification on the forend. Looking at the chart it appears that the measurements across the hinge & across the breech are all shared by 1/2, 0 & 00 frames.

Now that we have determined how to identify the measurements for a 1/2 frame. What do you usually find for the proportions of the rest of the gun to match the scaled down 12ga frame?

In particular does the butt stock usually have dimensions to match a slimmer frame profile. I ask this because I have a VHE 12 of the same era in the 241,000 serial number range on a 1 1/2 frame. The stocks on both guns appear to be of the same dimensions in the wrist area & across the comb. I'm just wondering why have a smaller scaled frame & then not scale the wood in a similar manner?

[Bill Murphy]

You first must examine the "chart" on page 527? of TPS to answer questions for identification. Next, you must understand that light guns were made on big frames and heavy guns were made on small frames. 1/2 frame guns were made as 8 pound plus trap guns. Such guns are in the collections of PGCA members. Serial number 241,000 is an example. I have a 1/2 frame gun that is among the lightest of 1/2 frame guns, having a very light set of non original 1/2 frame barrels and a stock that is lighter and of smaller dimensions than many .410 bore 000 frame stocks. 1/2 frame guns are among the most interesting and diverse guns made in the Remington era. One of our members is studying the 1/2 frame guns as a research project.

[wayne goerres]

Probable won't be an argument over the vice. It is plainly marked.

[Jean Swanson]

I read on a set of original Parker blue print dated some where around 1920 "that all 1/2 frame guns will be on 1 frame actions ".

If I recall , I posted this sometime in the past. Question---was this factual ??? I certainly do not know.

Allan

[Bill Murphy]

Allan, Dave Suponski sent me a copy of that memo for my 1/2 frame research collection. The result of that memo is that #1 frame barrels will fit on a 1/2 frame action. However, there are other differences, like the forend attaching area. My 1/2 frame DHE actually has a second set of #1 frame barrels. The #1 frame barrels require a #1 frame forend and the 1/2 frame barrels require a #0 or #1/2 frame forend. Oddly, the memo was dated long before the 1/2 frame was put into production. Thanks, Allan.

[Paul Ehlers]

I read on a set of original Parker blue print dated some where around 1920 "that all 1/2 frame guns will be on 1 frame actions ".

If I recall , I posted this sometime in the past. Question---was this factual ??? I certainly do not know.

Allan

When studying the frame size chart in the Parker Story. I believe it might confirm the 1/2 frames started as 1 frames in that they share the same firing pin center spacing of 1 1/16" It also appears this is the only measurement they share in common as far as bolters, breech & across the hinge measurements. In the notes section on the frame size chart it does point out there are some common measurements shared by all frame sizes, in particular D, G & F I'm fairly sure that if you measured enough guns you would find some variances in all of these measurements from gun to gun. After all they were hand filed & probably had some "go, no-go" tolerances the tradesmen had to follow for each frame size.

I find this to be an interesting study of Parkers. I've always been intrigued by the weight & proportional differences there can be from gun to gun on the same frame size. I still have questions about the 1/2 frames though. In my thinking, why would Parker develop their smallest 12ga frame offering & not intend it to be their most svelte proportioned gun in that gauge. I accept the fact that there are 8lb 1/2 frames & probably some sub 6 1/2lb 1/2 frames, but I still wonder why make the 1/2 frame into an 8lb gun?

The gun I measured in the pictures weighs in at 7lbs. Not bad for a 12ga with 28" tubes &.041" wall thickness. If this one had the wood proportioned to match "particularly in the wrist area" I'm fairly sure they could have shaved a few ounces off it.

[Brian Dudley]

Most who own 1/2 frame guns would concur that they are not really all that lighter than most 1 frame or even 1-1/2 frame guns for that matter. One can only make a 12g gun so light. The english excluded.

Maybe Parker developed the 1/2 frame as a better suited frame for offering smaller guages on in multi barrel sets??? Ie: 12/16 sets or 12/20.

[Paul Ehlers]

Interesting thought Brian!

[Bill Murphy]

There is a Parker memo that suggests the 1/2 frame is to be used for 16 gauge as well as 12 gauge. Maybe it is the 1920 memo. The Cliff Green BHE 12-20 combo is made on a 1/2 frame. My 1/2 frame DHE is a 12-16 combo, but the barrels are not original to the gun

[Dave Tercek]

Wasn,t there a discussion a few months or years ago about Remington using up existing parts ? It was suggested that #1 frames were modified to fit existing 20g forend irons.
Dave

[Jean Swanson]

WHEN I got serious into collecting ,I was buying all kinds of guns in great to excellent condition . Among these guns were English 12 bores---as I recall I purchased several guns "as in the English vernacular were 12/20's --that was a light 12 bore on a 20 bore frame . I wish I still had these guns--W.C Scott ,Purdey, Lang, and others.

Just a little side note. Bill---I will see if I can get ahold of those blue prints and make a copy of that "note" on the drawing for your records.

Allan

[Brian Dudley]

The 1/2 frame was developed around 1930 in Meriden. The frames were made in Meriden, but not used until Remington took over production. And the beleif is they did it when the 1 frames ran out. Since, as to what we know, Remington never actually made any Parker frames.

[Bill Murphy]

Terc, you are right. There was a good reason for the 1/2 frame project. I am disappointed that Brian is arguing about our hard research. The 1/2 frame is a 1920 or earlier idea, not 1930, regardless of when it went to fruition. Dave, yes, the 1/2 frames helped to use up the 0 frame forends.

[Brian Dudley]

I thought the engineering drawings from Meriden were dated 1930? I was not aware of a 1920 memo.

[Dave Suponski]

Bill, I have a 1/2 frame drawing here and it is dated 1930. It would be kind of hard to manufacture frames in 1920 without a drawing no?

[edgarspencer]

Dave, Brian, Bill didn't say the Half Frame was produced in 1920, merely that there was a memo, dated '20, suggesting it.

[Jean Swanson]

I am staying out of this---I only reported what I read !!!

I have owned a few half frame 12 bores, I know where they are today and bid on one years ago at an auction , only to be out bid by Morris Baker !! That is how I met Morris, now a fiend .

Allan

[Bill Murphy]

I agree with you, Allan. Morris is "a fiend".

[Dean Romig]

I agree with you, Allan. Morris is "a fiend".



:biglaugh:



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[Bill Murphy]

I have the 1920 (I am in error, it is 1930) memo copy, and I'm sure Dave S. sent it to me when we were discussing the 1/2 frame on this forum. I'll try to find it in my 1/2 frame file. OK, I found the blueprint. It is, for sure, a 1930 document. The date is written less than clearly, and I mistook the 3 for a 2 years ago.

[Bill Murphy]

The most interesting feature of the Parker Brothers blueprint is that it called for the water table to be milled out like the 00, 000, and 0 frame hammer guns. That would have been a very elegant feature of the 1/2 frame, had it been implemented.

[Brian Dudley]

And made the guns a little lighter than they are.

[Paul Ehlers]

The most interesting feature of the Parker Brothers blueprint is that it called for the water table to be milled out like the 00, 000, and 0 frame hammer guns. That would have been a very elegant feature of the 1/2 frame, had it been implemented.

You're right on. That would have been a neat feature!!!

[Craig Larter]

OK so I think the 1/2frame is cool and very rare but why not just buy a 16ga.

[Dean Romig]

It's the mystique of the gun and the research. They seemed to command a lot more money about a decade ago.





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[Bill Murphy]

"Why not buy a 16 gauge" is a moot question. 1/2 frame guns were built for stock, generally, not to order. The buyer got what was available in the 1/2 frame era.