Dangerous Damascus

[John Allen]

I recently picked up a 16ga Bernard barreled CHE.Included with the gun was a set of 20ga Vickers Atlas barrels and two letters from Remington on Parker letterhead telling a previous owner how dangerous damascus barrels were.They cited how damascus weakened over time and how it was more likely to pit and rust.Quite a turnaround from what we know today.They really tried hard to kill the use of damascus barrels.I guess out of fear of lawsuits.I have attached photos of the letters.I also have a letter from Larry DelGreco saying he no longer built barrels and he refered the owner to Atlas.I apologize for the poor quality of the photos.The letters have been folded for a long time and are fragile.An interesting piece of Parker histony.

[Jeff Kuss]

John,
Those are nice historical letters.
Thanks,
Jeff

[Dean Romig]

I wonder if the Remington correspondant, F.T. Plunkett is any relation to our own Paul Plunkett?





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[Richard Flanders]

Those should be carefully put onto a flat bed scanner then the lid lowered to flatten them out nicely and scanned for distribution. Some real history there. Thanks for sharing.

[FRANK HALSEY]

I was shooting with a 92 year old gent when we discussed the barrels I was shooting. He told me that back when he duck hunted, a gent that was shooting in the next blind had his Parker come completely unraveled. I tried to tell him that that was impossible. He asked if I was calling him a liar. I just walked out and let it go. Sometimes you just can't believe what people say about our older guns.

[Dave Noreen]

Interesting!! DuPont, that owned controlling interest in Remington Arms Co., Inc. from 1934 through the end of the century, published booklets on their shotgun powders in the late 1920s and early 1930s that stated that their new progressive burning powders produced much higher velocities with considerably lower pressures then the bulk and dense smokeless powders previously in use. Now here they are stating they are dangerous in Damascus barrels. Hmmm....

My Grandfather, Father and uncles were convinced this Damascus barrel nonsense started as a desperate industry attempt to sell new guns during The Great Depression.

[Bruce Day]

John, those Bernards are especially bad and even more so the small bores. I'll take the gun off your hands for cheap. I'll do that for a friend.

[John Allen]

It is possible that some barrels did fail.Pitted barrels or barrels that had been honed and polished out can be dangerous today.Back then no one outside of a few gunsmiths even knew what a wall thickness gauge was.Also,damascus probably got blamed when there was an obstruction of some kind in the barrel.Easier to blame the barrels instead of mud or snow or the wrong gauge shell in the gun.The main point is that gun and ammo manufacturers made a coordinated effort to stop the use of damascus barrels.

[John Allen]

Bruce,you are a true gentleman.If I need rescue,I will call.

[chuck brunner]

Boys its been a while....I have seen my buddy John's little Bernard gun....Shes a beauty....The "C" was the epitome of parker excellence......ain't that right "uncle rich" and Bruce.........Johns the best. Always something special coming out of "duck central"

[Drew Hause]

Chuck Bishop posted a similar letter some time ago.

August 24, 1948
Remington Arms Company Inc., Service Division
Subject: Heavy Loads in Damascus Steel Barrels
A number of accidents have happened in which Damascus barrels have been blown up with progressive smokeless powder. It has been felt that the reason for this was not only that the loads were heavy and that the guns were not designed for such loads, but also that there is a possibility that such barrels have become weakened with the passage of time due to unsuspected corrosion to which they are susceptible to a much greater degree than modern types of barrels.
It is a great many years since Damascus barrels have been made and sold by American gunmakers. It is felt that unsuspected corrosion of this type of barrel is making the continued use of these guns a hazard.
The conclusion was reached some time ago by the Technical Committee of the Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute that sportsmen should be warned against the use of present day smokeless powder loads in such guns regardless of whether they are heavy loads or so-called light loads.
H.L. Hendrix

More mythology here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LFnSG34k3mBhLEjEgU267wAlIa215MNVQZhIiY62Hx4/edit

[Bruce Day]

John, yours is one of three known Bernard 16s . A handful of 16s, a few 20s and a 28, were made. I've made it a mission to find out and keep track. I've not heard of any others much less seen any others.

For a Parker collector this is a keeper.

[chuck brunner]

Mr Bruce is the best....... Great guns ....... Great knowledge

[chuck brunner]

Has better pics than I do...... trust me....what a collection

[Dean Romig]

John, yours is one of three known Bernard 16s . A handful of 16s, a few 20s and a 28, were made. I've made it a mission to find out and keep track. I've not heard of any others much less seen any others.

For a Parker collector this is a keeper.



Larry had that two barrel - two gauge (12 & 16) set with straight grip and roundel engraving. I think COB owns it now. I'm sure you've handled that one Bruce?






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[Bruce Day]

Larry had that two barrel - two gauge (12 & 16) set with straight grip and roundel engraving. I think COB owns it now. I'm sure you've handled that one Bruce
/


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I have and it is the third. Straight grip and rondel side panels on a 1 frame, I believe 28". A great gun also, last I heard owned by David Dwyer.

Another 16 was shot through the stock, the barrel stuck on an old beater. There was something wrong with the barrel if i remember correctly.

Some C's had unusual Damascus, like that Turkish Star pattern. I have a rondel pattern 20 ga with Turkish Star. The rondel pattern guns were 1900 to 1905, mostly C's but a few B's and a D or two. Another B with with double rondels each side surfaced the other day, an unmolested Bernard barreled 1 frame game gun under 7 lb, 12ga, how neat is that? And its local to me so I get to see it.

Now where are those 20's and 28?

[Larry Frey]

The roundel pattern guns were 1900 to 1905, mostly C's but a few B's and a D or two.

Roundel???:)

[Dean Romig]

I'm pretty sure the side panel engraving determines the "Roundel" style of engraving Larry.





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[Daniel G Rainey]

Very interesting, but that is the way business works. To some bigger is better. Ammo companies that owned gun companies wanted there guns to shoot the more powerful and more costly ammo in order made more money. Just like the camo companies coming out with new patterns each year. It is not that the old goes not work,but they need something new to sell. When hunters kills a bird it is dead and it makes no difference if it was shoot with 28 ga. or a 3 1/2 12 ga. It is just as dead. Chances are that the bird shot with the lighter load will not be shot up as much and better on the table.

[John Allen]

Daniel,You really nailed it.Remember that in the late 1940s and 1950s everyone wanted magnums.They believed that if a little was good,a lot must be wonderful.We still suffer from that a bit today with these stupid 31/2" 12ga.guns.They don't realize that the loads are lower velocity,longer shot strings,and more recoil than a standard 23/4",11/8 oz.field load.

[Kevin McCormack]

Boys its been a while....I have seen my buddy John's little Bernard gun....Shes a beauty....The "C" was the epitome of parker excellence......ain't that right "uncle rich" and Bruce.........Johns the best. Always something special coming out of "duck central"

Now wait just a minute - Chuck WHOOOOOO?????

[Kevin McCormack]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;207794]I'm pretty sure the side panel engraving determines the "Roundel" style of engraving Larry.


No, you're wrong - a roundel is a circular shape or sphere of any size or location usually containing an artistic rendition or symbol, regardless of where it appears on an object.

[Kevin McCormack]

DEL G-R-E-G-O !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chuck Bishop]

How do you guys remember all this???

I can't remember what I had for lunch:eek:

[Dean Romig]

[QUOTE=Dean Romig;207794]I'm pretty sure the side panel engraving determines the "Roundel" style of engraving Larry.


No, you're wrong - a roundel is a circular shape or sphere of any size or location usually containing an artistic rendition or symbol, regardless of where it appears on an object.


Sorry Kevin, in this context we're talking about the side panel's determining if the gun is a 'Roundel engraved gun.'

I understand your point and I agree with it except in this particular context of the side panel's engraving style.





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[keavin nelson]

I think it had more to do with marketing by the gun company's, twist steel was harder to find, more expensive to make/import. Fluid steel barrels were for the most part local, cheaper to make, but didn't have the handsome patterns. So to sell plane steel, the "old" damascus had to be less, either strong or?

[Drew Hause]

Keavin: Almost all the 'rough forged tubes' used by U.S. doublegun makers, both pattern welded and fluid steel, were sourced from Belgium, and they said so.

Hearings, Vol. 14, United States 60th Congress 2nd Session
November, 1908.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XW0vAAAAMAAJ&dq
We further request that shotguns barrels in single tubes forged rough bored…be continued on the free list as at present, because their manufacture or production can not be economically undertaken in this country.
Hunters Arms co., Fulton, N.Y., Ithaca Gun Co., Ithaca N.Y., Parker Bros., Meriden, Conn., Lefever Arms Co., Syracuse, N.Y., J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., Chicopee Falls, Mass., N.R. Davis & Son, Assonet, Mass., Baker Gun & Forging Co., Batavia, N.Y.

Report on Duties on Metals and Manufactures of Metals
By United States Congress. Senate. Committee on Finance, 1912
Testimony regarding the Payne-Aldrich and Dingley Tariff Bills
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA879&dq
STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS HUNTER, OF FULTON, N. Y., REPRESENTING THE HUNTER ARMS CO. AND OTHERS
The Chairman: Will you state the companies you represent, Mr. Hunter?
Mr. Hunter. The Hunter Arms Co., the Baker Gun & Forging Co., Parker Bros. Gun Co., Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., A. H. Fox Gun Co., Lefever Arms Co., H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., Ithaca Gun Co., N. R. Davis & Sons, and Harrington & Richardson Arms Co.
Senator McCumber: Does the American manufacturer use the unfinished importation?
Mr. Hunter: He uses what are designated in the present bill as “gun barrels rough-bored.” That is what we import.
Senator McCumber: To what extent do you use those?
Mr. Hunter: Entirely.
Senator McCumber: You do not manufacture any of them?
Mr. Hunter: No, sir. We have no facilities for making shotgun barrels.
Senator McCumber: Does any other company make them?
Mr. Hunter: There are a few that make them for themselves only. None are made to be sold. We never have been able to buy any in this country.

THE TESTIMONY OF W.A. KING REPRESENTING PARKER GUN CO.
Mr. King: I can speak only for our own company in so far as wages go. For instance, on the question of barrels, Mr. Hunter informed your committee that some years ago some of the manufacturers of this country attempted to make barrels. We made some barrels: we built an addition to the factory, put in some up-to-date machinery, and brought some men from Belgium to show our blacksmiths how to do it. We had to pay our blacksmiths not less than 32 cents an hour, up to 40 cents, and we gave it up, because the highest wages paid the Belgian blacksmiths for exactly the same grade of barrel are 11 cents per hour. That is what is paid to the highest-priced man employed.
Senator Smoot: In Belgium?
Mr. King: In Belgium: yes, sir. That is where all of our barrels are imported from, with the exception of our very high-grade Whipple (probably a typo for Whitworth) steel barrels.

I certainly agree about the marketing :(
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LFnSG34k3mBhLEjEgU267wAlIa215MNVQZhIiY62Hx4/edit

[Dean Romig]

And... the 'pattern welded' or composite barrels made by Parker Bros. were only in about 1877, '78, and '79.

Aside from the 'marketing' factor - which was huge - was the fact that importation was rendered practically impossible by the attacks on any and all commercial shipping by the Germans in WW-I. That fact alone put a definite end to importing raw barrels from Europe.





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[Paul Harm]

Drew, I believe Remington was making their own " fluid steel " barrels long before 1908 - although they didn't call them " fluid steel ". They had rolling mills to form barrels from a piece of stock 2" round by 8" long . Their rifle barrels were sold world wide.

[Drew Hause]

“Fire-Arms Manufacture” 1880, U.S. Dept. of Interior, Census Office
“The earliest use of decarbonized steel for gun-barrels is generally credited to the Remingtons, [E. Remington & Sons] who made steel barrels for North & Savage, of Middletown, Connecticut, and for the Ames Manufacturing Company of Chicopee, Massachusetts as early as 1846."

All courtesy of Dave Noreen.
I don't believe the source of Remington's "Ordnance Steel" is known

The Remington (hammer) Model of 1889 No. 1 with “Decarbonized Steel” was offered until 1908.

The Remington No. 3 Model of 1893 single was listed with “Blue Steel” and No. 9 Model of 1902 with “Special Steel”.
The No. 9 hang tag (courtesy of David Noreen) states: “The barrels of this gun have been THOROUGHLY TESTED and are guaranteed for all standard brands of Smokeless and Black powder, when properly - but not excessively, loaded.” The maximum load was 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. of Bulk or Dense Smokeless powders.

It is assumed the Remington Steel used on the A Grade Hammerless Model of 1894 starting in 1897, K Grade (Model 1900) Hammerless, and Model of 1894 Hammerless Grade “F.E.” Trap Gun (introduced in 1906) is similar to Marlin “Special Rolled Steel” and Winchester “Rolled Steel”. The April 1897 Remington catalog stated “Remington blued steel barrels are manufactured in our own works” and the Sears catalog No. 112 c. 1902 states the K Grade has “fine Decarbonized steel barrels”.

Remington introduced Ordnance Steel for the (Model 1894) Hammerless Double in the April 1897 catalog.
The 1902 catalog stated the Remington Ordnance Steel tensile strength was 110,000 psi.


Winchester Nickel Steel was introduced for the Model 1894 rifle about 1896 and was sourced from Bethlehem Steel Co. and Midvale Steel Co.
George Madis, The Winchester Book
Nickel steel barrels for the .32/40 and .38/55 calibers Winchester 1894 were available after 1895 as a special order option. The barrels were stamped “M.N.S.”.

[Dave Noreen]

"America's Oldest Gunmaker", Remington, was really in the gun barrel and parts business for most of the years from their 1816 birth date up until just before the Northern War of Aggression. One of the earliest pieces of Remington paper that the Remington Society has come up with is an E. Remington & Sons 1854 broadsheet listing their cash prices for barrels. They offer --

MATCHED BARRELS for DOUBLE GUNS, plain iron------------$4.50
MATCHED BARRELS for DOUBLE GUNS, stubs twisted plain---$8.00
MATCHED BARRELS for DOUBLE GUNS, stubs twisted fine---$10.00
MATCHED BARRELS for DOUBLE GUNS, cast steel------------$8.00
BARRELS for DOUBLE GUNS, cast steel, solid or drilled from single bar-----$15.00
BARRELS for DUCK GUNS, from 20 pounds upwards -- 75 cents per lb.

I have no idea if E. Remington & Sons were importing these barrels or actually manufacturing them.

[Dave Suponski]

Dave, Wasn't there a photo of men working in the Remington shop making composite barrels?

[Leighton Stallones]

This is the Classic anti Damascus letter from Ithaca

[Richard Flanders]

That's right about when I wrote them and asked about my Ithaca Flues damascus S/S; I think it was made in 1907.

[charlie cleveland]

i really like the one for duck gun barrels over 20 lbs i sure would like to see one of these barrels....charlie