View Full Version : CH Bernard on hold
ForrestArmstrong
12-16-2016, 11:40 AM
I have this CH on hold but value this forum's opinions. I am concerned a little about the originality of the buttstock, appears "proud" against the metal to me, the checkered side panels, and screws are buggered and was disassembled at one time. I again solicit your collective opinions and thanks in advance.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/parker-shotguns/parker-ch-12ga-30in-bernard-damascus-barrels-1-1-2-frame.cfm?gun_id=100782413
Dean Romig
12-16-2016, 12:24 PM
Looks like the original butt stock, but what is protruding from the top of the checkering within the skeleton butt plate?
Very nice checkering all over, even if it is redone.
The case colors appear to be cyanide so that may suggest a complete re-do. Nice gun though... I would buy it!
.
Brett Souder
12-16-2016, 12:43 PM
I do not recall seeing a CH grade with checkered side panels as standard feature. Picture number one shows a chip in the stock that has been repaired on the left side where it meets the frame at the bottom. Maybe Im wrong about the checkered side panels but can't find a reference to them on a CH.
Bruce Day
12-16-2016, 12:56 PM
SN 136,503. 12 /30 CHE Bernard
Brett Souder
12-16-2016, 12:59 PM
Thanks Bruce, I knew that someone would be able to produce one. Was this considered a rare special request to have checkered side panels?
Bruce Day
12-16-2016, 01:09 PM
Usually but not always.
Special requests are never rare in C's but as Quality C guns were special order anyway, the unusual was usual. There are many C's with checkered panels.
But those checkered stock panels do not look like usual Parker side panels to me because of the rounded end. The price is a bargain.
Dean Romig
12-16-2016, 01:13 PM
Checkered cheeks was not standard on a grade 4.
.
John Allen
12-16-2016, 01:23 PM
This is a nice gun.I agree with Dean that it has been recolored.The letter might shed some light on whether it came back to Parker for work.The colors look like early DelGreco to me. Either way,it is a rare gun at a reasonable price.The Parker Story only lists 383 Bernard 12ga CHEs built.
Dean Romig
12-16-2016, 01:35 PM
I would be very surprised if more than 20% of those had ejectors.
The cyanide colors could have been done by Remington - check for Remington repair codes on the barrel flat for the left barrel.
If it was re-checkered I'll bet a dollar it wasn't done by Del Grego.
.
Bruce Day
12-16-2016, 03:04 PM
The colors look like early DelGreco to me..
Del Greco's brother El:
Chris Travinski
12-16-2016, 03:45 PM
Looks like a piece of leather or something in the center of the SSBP in picture #7. The case colors would probably look great with some wear.
Drew Hause
12-16-2016, 03:50 PM
You are aware of the left lower head of the stock repair?
http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17126410/413025093.jpg
Brian Dudley
12-16-2016, 03:55 PM
Forrest,
The frame has been recolored at some time.
The buttstock is original, but the checkering is not.
What is on the butt is just a leather pad of some sort.
ForrestArmstrong
12-16-2016, 06:13 PM
Thanks so much everyone. The letter doesn't mention anything other than standard specs, nothing about it being returned for repairs, etc. I'm gonna look more closely at it tomorrow, have only seen the pictures thus far. Wonder if the barrels have been recolored too?
Brian Dudley
12-16-2016, 06:25 PM
Thanks Bruce, I knew that someone would be able to produce one. Was this considered a rare special request to have checkered side panels?
I have seen D grades with factory checkered panels yhay letter that way.
What is important is to know what factory checkered panels look like and to know how to spot ones that are not correct.
As you can see, there is a big difference between the gun in question and the example that bruce provided.
John Allen
12-16-2016, 07:24 PM
Yeah,I recognize him.I think I bought the Czar's first cousin's A1 from him years ago.
edgarspencer
12-16-2016, 07:59 PM
Regardless the naysayers, staters of the obvious, and reiterators, I think it is a handsome gun, a good value, and, as Dean says, I'd buy it too. Congratulations.
Paul Ehlers
12-16-2016, 08:52 PM
I inquired the seller about this one. Here's a picture the butt he sent me. The Parker story say's that C grades could have checkered cheek panels.
Dean Romig
12-16-2016, 09:44 PM
That picture helps to explain the checkered cheek panels. Nicely done.
.
Kevin McCormack
12-17-2016, 09:02 AM
I don't understand....how does the picture of the butt help to explain the checkered cheek panels?...
Bill Murphy
12-17-2016, 10:49 AM
I think someone misinterpreted The Parker Story. Browse through the C Grade chapter of "The Grades" section in Volume 1.
Dean Romig
12-17-2016, 10:56 AM
I don't understand....how does the picture of the butt help to explain the checkered cheek panels?...
I think I'll just refrain from offering my opinion. This very nice CHE thread doesn't need varying opinions... it's just a darn nice gun that I would buy, given the opportunity.
.
Kevin McCormack
12-17-2016, 12:13 PM
And yet that was what Forrest was asking for in his OP - forum opinions. Sounds like a "want" rather than a "need" in interpreting his evaluation of the gun.
Jeff Higgins
12-17-2016, 12:28 PM
At the price you got it for I think it is a great buy. Even if it isn't 100% original I sure would like to own it. Enjoy it Forrest.
Bill Murphy
12-17-2016, 01:52 PM
Nice gun. I like it. By the way, I have Kevin M. to thank for my $400 cased CH Bernard two barrel set. I have Kevin's brother, Tom, to thank for finding my $700 Acme barrel CH. I don't seem to be able to find any of these things by myself. It's great to have friends.
Craig Larter
12-17-2016, 02:11 PM
Nice gun if you can live with it's issues, as pointed out by the other posters, go for it, if you will have difficulty living with it's warts walk away.
Brian Dudley
12-17-2016, 02:43 PM
Forrest did not ask about the gun being a good buy or what we thought about the price. He asked about the originality of it.
So why are some getting grumpy about people answering his question?
Michael Moffa
12-17-2016, 06:21 PM
Checkered cheeks between the two S/N's mentioned.
Michael Moffa
12-17-2016, 06:22 PM
Didn't load the picture, too big for the insert.
Michael Moffa
12-17-2016, 06:27 PM
Another try on the cheeks. 121,xxx S/N range
Paul Ehlers
12-17-2016, 09:12 PM
I think someone misinterpreted The Parker Story. Browse through the C Grade chapter of "The Grades" section in Volume 1.
My bad! It isn't the Parker Story that states C's can have checked side panels, it's the grade information area on this site that has the reference.
I included the picture of the butt because someone mentioned it looked like there was a piece of leather on the butt. I thought the same thing and asked for the picture.
I hope Forrest enjoys the gun !! I almost sprung for it myself.
calvin humburg
12-18-2016, 08:58 AM
Did you go look at the old girl Forrest?
ForrestArmstrong
12-18-2016, 03:11 PM
Calvin, I'll see her tomorrow morning.
Buttplate is impregnated with Acraglas or some kind of epoxy.
calvin humburg
12-18-2016, 05:34 PM
Sounds like fun!
Bill Murphy
12-19-2016, 10:59 AM
I don't understand Mike Moffa's comment about "checkered cheeks between serial number". What serial numbers? I think checkered cheeks were special order or aftermarker on C grades. I don't know that serial numbers had anything to do with it. The last picture of checkered cheeks does not look like factory work.
Brian Dudley
12-19-2016, 11:49 AM
The most important feature of factory checkered cheeks is that the panel should be recessed with a beveled edge. The panel is actually carved out. Then checkered.
There are other more minor things to look for, but If the panel does not look like this, it is likely not factory.
edgarspencer
12-19-2016, 12:09 PM
Brian, there is a lot of variation in original Parker checkered cheeks, and not all are as extreme, with repsect to the beveled edge, as the C which Bruce has shown.
This is an untouched BHE, in the 189K sn range, and as you can see there is only a minor bevel to the leading, vertical edge. The panels are sunk below the outer edge, but not as significantly as that which Bruce has shown.
I am not remotely convinced that Forrest's CH is not original, and I don't think there is enough photographic evidence to suggest conclusively otherwise.
Channing Will
12-19-2016, 01:30 PM
This CH as for sale earlier this year.
http://www.foxriversporting.com/products/parker-ch-bernard-steel-barrels-1896-antique
Dean Romig
12-19-2016, 02:38 PM
Same gun, right Will?
.
edgarspencer
12-19-2016, 04:03 PM
The photos shown on the Fox River listing show the cheeks in much greater detail, and they don't appear to be original, though they are still nice.
Brian Dudley
12-19-2016, 04:06 PM
Brian, there is a lot of variation in original Parker checkered cheeks, and not all are as extreme, with repsect to the beveled edge, as the C which Bruce has shown.
This is an untouched BHE, in the 189K sn range, and as you can see there is only a minor bevel to the leading, vertical edge. The panels are sunk below the outer edge, but no as significantly as that which Bruce has shown.
I am not remotely convinced the Forrest's CH is not original, and I don't think there is enough photographic evidence to suggest conclusively otherwise.
Note that i said the panel should be recessed. I did not say how much as i know there is variation. So, basically you are just supporting what i said???
I respect your thoughts that the subject gun may not be altered from factory specs. Can you tell me what your thoughts are on the near 90 degree angle of the checkering lines on cheeks and butt? And also on how fine the checkering is on the butt?
Brian Dudley
12-19-2016, 04:10 PM
This CH as for sale earlier this year.
http://www.foxriversporting.com/products/parker-ch-bernard-steel-barrels-1896-antique
What do you know... same gun. I had seen the gun in person when it was offered by Fox River and my observation was the checkered cheeks were not original.
And note that the letter has no mention of checkered cheeks in the order book. Guns below B grade that were ordered this way will usually nate that in the order.
edgarspencer
12-19-2016, 06:53 PM
Note that i said the panel should be recessed. I did not say how much as i know there is variation. So, basically you are just supporting what i said???
I respect your thoughts that the subject gun may not be altered from factory specs. Can you tell me what your thoughts are on the near 90 degree angle of the checkering lines on cheeks and butt? And also on how fine the checkering is on the butt?
You did see my post, #40, didn't you? If the GB listing had photos as clear as the Fox River photos, I don't think there would have been much question. Am I agreeing with you? If you say so, but I don't think I'm DISagreeing with you.
The butt does seem a finer lpi than normal, but unless the ssbp was reset lower, how would one be able to recut the checkering over the top of the original ?I don't think they could have doubled it, since half would be very coarse. I'm sure if we accept that there was variation in checkered cheeks, we could assume that checkered butts may have varied also.
This direction seems to deviate from Forrest's original question. I think he gathered that most thought it was a good value, without too much concern for certain 'oddities' .
Bruce Day
12-19-2016, 08:33 PM
Original Parker checkered stock cheeks:
Now if I were more than a novice with Parkers I could tell who was the checkerer.
charlie cleveland
12-20-2016, 05:43 PM
i think the gun is a good buy myself....charlie
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.