How important is exact science with your 10 short?

[RICHARD HOUSER]

I am new to the forum, new to reloading the 10 short, and have learned most everything that I am doing from reading this forum. Specifically I quickly settled on using the Peter Lester 19 grain red dot load. I started by hand measuring everything and using a roll crimper with hard wads stacked the whole way. I have had good results, but, it is VERY slow.

I bought a MEC 10 ga Steelmaster, 200 Remington unprimed hulls (I believe they are SP hulls), 100 Cheddite primed hulls, Remington SP-10 wads, Schoeller PT-1044 wads, and a big bag of 16 ga 1/2" fiber cushion wads.

I started with MEC Powder bushing 32 which was to throw 19.2 grains of Red Dot. I found it always throws sub 19 grains. I changed to bushing 33 which throws 19.5 grains. Ok there.

I am using a MEC 1 1/8 oz bar but it consistently throws 475 gr of 7.5 shot instead of the target 493 gr charge. I am thinking of upping the bar to the 1 1/4 oz bar and seeing how far over the 493 gr target it throws.

Why am I concerned? I have been using 3 different overshot cards to try to keep a nice 6pt fold crimp on the shells. I literally charge the shell with powder, wad, and shot, pull the loaded shell and inspect the height, then select the os card that will best adjust the crimp. I am using a full down stroke to seat the SP-10 wad and have not really read the wad pressure to see if it is consistent.

I think some of my issue is my case cutting technique. A caliper shows that there is variance in my shell lengths. I have also found that there is a difference in the filler wad thicknesses (again using a caliper).

How important is any of this to you veteran 19 grain Red Dot shooters? I guess I am just trying to really standardize my load and have perfect 6 point fold crimps.

Opinions and suggestions would be appreciated.

v/r rch

[Rick Losey]

i try to stay very close- i also find it is not unusual for a bushing to throw something different from the chart

part of the reason is the operator and/or the press- if you tend to hit the bar hard to move it you will get a different charge than the guy who gently slides it from side to side.

i try to be consistent with the movement - and I several throws to get an average of the measurement

if there is more than a slight (tenth or so of a grain ) difference i can modify the bushing by adding a little tape inside or a light filing and polishing

[Paul Harm]

I shoot 19grs of RD and 1 1/16oz of shot [ adj charge bar ]. Maybe it's just me, but I find with the 10ga, the load height to the top of the shell is critical. It seems the bigger diameter shell with the same wall thickness is a bit weaker than a 12ga. If I don't get it right the shell will buckle around the cushion area of the wad. Because I had 2 5/8" shells at one time, and still have them, I just vary the height with more or less 16ga 1/2" fiber wads inside the plastic wad [ before the shot ]. With a fold crimp you don't need any overshot wads, and in the past if I used too thick a OS card I'd get holes in the pattern. I know some guys didn't get that problem, but I never use more than a .028 OS card. Try using different thickness of 16ga cushion wads to change the load height. Once you find something that gives you a nice crimp, measure the distance to the top of the shell and you'll know what you'll need for any length shell. Hope this helps - good luck.

[Eric Johanen]

I have found that a 1/8" nitro card on top of the 16 ga. fiber filler eliminated the dished crimps. The fiber filler is somewhat compressable and the nitro card on top allows for some crush in the column and has eliminated dished crimps and buckling at the crimp. Since the powder charge is so low I'm not worried about a tiny increase in pressure. Also the added nitro card helps with preventing shot embedding in the fiber cushion. Works with either the Red Dot or the SR4756 load data. Now all my shells look really nice, like factory crimps.

[Pete Lester]

Hi Richard.

With a shotgun close is good enough both in shooting and reloading, I don't see a need to weigh every powder charge. MEC bushings are notorious for dropping light, weigh the charge from a bushing until you get close to what you are looking for and then just load shells with it. (btw I use the 32 bushing for 19gr of RD too).

MEC charge bars often throw light as well, especially when 1 1/8 ounce and less are used with hunting sized shot, they are made for target size shot. If they throw a little light I don't worry about it, remember it's a shotgun not a rifle.

I don't use over the shot cards with folded crimps. Often times anything over the shot column has the tendency to open the pattern. I suggest you adjust the filler wad under the shot as needed to achieve a proper crimp. Eric's idea of putting the OS card on top of the filler wad is a better idea if you need to raise the shot column up a hair. Over time you will develop an "eye" for it and you will see that the shot column is either too high or too low to crimp properly after dropping the shot and looking at the shell prior to crimping. When I see a variance I take the shell out of process, either dump a little shot out if too high or pour all the shot out and add a little more filler to bring it up if too low. (A little piece of a cheerio makes great filler material).

The days of insuring a specific wad pressure are gone, all you need to do is be sure that wad is seated on top of the powder without any gap.

Because of small inconsistencies in materials and lack of precision in my calibrated eyeball I get an occasional variance in crimp depth, not much and nothing that affects performance but one can see a small difference here and there. I have noticed that when loading other gauges that don't use a filler wad there will be variances here and there as well even though everything is the same. It's the nature of shotshell reloading, the short ten is a little trickier in this regard because of a filler wad.

Bottom line having my Short Ten shells look uniform is a lot less important to me than having them perform uniformly.

Good luck and have fun, Short Ten's are a blast.

P.S. Paul mentioned hulls buckling. Sometimes hulls will buckle even if the shot column is the right height. If you find shells buckle just above the brass when you apply the crimp with a good shot height, stop and adjust the cam until they no longer buckle. The adjustment is easy, if they are buckling move the adjustment a little bit clockwise. You will need an allen wrench to loosen the set screw before you can adjust it. Remington hulls seem to be more prone to this than Federal hulls. https://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/mecadjust/mecadj.htm

[scott kittredge]

P.S. Paul mentioned hulls buckling. Sometimes hulls will buckle even if the shot column is the right height. If you find shells buckle just above the brass when you apply the crimp with a good shot height, stop and adjust the cam until they no longer buckle. The adjustment is easy, if they are buckling move the adjustment a little bit clockwise. You will need an allen wrench to loosen the set screw before you can adjust it. Remington hulls seem to be more prone to this than Federal hulls. https://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/mecadjust/mecadj.htm[/QUOTE]

For the buckling , check the shell to see if its too long. if so it will buckle when crimped. I cut my shells .020 to .025 shorter than 2 7/8ths (2.850 -2.855).
scott

[William Davis]

Bushings rarely throw exact. Most of the time it's not a problem get close on a load you like good enough.

Problem load like my very light 16 g 3/4 # 8 shot in Cheddite hulls crimps give me a fit. Was curing it with a Cherrio or thin over shot wad which slowed down loading and aggravated me.

Weighed my 3/4 oz bushing drops and found them much closer to 5/8 than 3/4. Dribbling shot in the hull to true 3/4 the crimps come out fine no fillers. Chucked the bushing in my lathe and opened it up to true 3/4 with my shot. Problem solved.

Short 10s I have to use a fiber filler wad anyway. Buy 1/2 inch wads split to fit. Loading if I have crimp trouble I just split them a little thicker. You do get a "eye" for it. If they are not perfect they still shoot fine.

William

[RICHARD HOUSER]

This is one of the best groups I have ever worked with on any forum. Maybe it's because of the perfect solutions based on real world shooting. I will be working towards a short 10 crow load next, but, for now, let me report.

Eric, I don't know why I didn't think of dropping an additional .125 16 gauge nitro card directly on top of the 1/2" in filler, but, I didn't. I did put on over the shot to check for fit, but, it became too high. Now using SP-10 + 1/2" 16 Gauge filler wad + .125 16 Gauge nitro card + 1 1/8 oz MEC bar to deliver about 475 gr of 7.5 magnum shot. Guess what, Perfect Crimps.

I bumped up to the MEC 33 powder bushing to try to gain a little height + a little charge weight. For me it is throwing 19.5 gr of Red Dot. Since I have now adopted the extra nitro card, I am going to pattern the 19.5 gr load, then, go back and pattern MEC 32 powder bushing load (about 18.7 gr) and see if there is a difference.

I tried to chronograph some of the 19 gr Red Dot loads and couldn't get a reading with my MagnetoSpeed "on barrel" type chronograph. I guess I gapped things too far, but, I am really afraid to shoot this thing off the barrel by accident.

Thanks to all who make this forum great. The short 10 appears to be a really great round, and loaded at the 19 gr Red Dot level, makes my 10 a year around gun.

rch

[Pete Lester]

I will be working towards a short 10 crow load next, but, for now, let me report.



A crow load will be easy, use #6 lead shot pushed along by that 19 to 19.5 grains of RD. Feel the need for a heavier crow load, try 27gr of Green Dot pushing 1 1/4 ounce #6. I prefer the 1 1/8 ounce loading, it stones 'em as far as I care to shoot and has very little recoil.

[Daniel Carter]

Richard: just switch to #6 as Pete suggested for crows you will have all you need. you mentioned length trimming problems, there is a video of a dowel and exacto blade trimmer that works well. I can't find a link to it. Scott Kittredge gave me one and i have made some since, easy and accurate. Hope someone has a link to it? Thank you Scott

[Frank Cronin]

What Pete said - six shot for crows.

Rich - curious what gun are you loading for the short 10?

When I need to raise the shot column, I like cork wads. They drop right in. It just seems to speed up the loading process than using felt wads not having to use a pick to ensure the felt is flat in the plastic wad.

[Paul Harm]

Richard, I brought two threads to the top [ TTT ] for you to look at. I think you'll find them interesting. I think your Steelmaster just a 600 with a collect to resize the brass instead of a ring. The instructions for adjusting the cam on the final crimp station would still apply.

[Carl G. Bachhuber]

After about 50 years I broke down and bought an adjustable charge bar. I have a whole shelf full of old charge bars that have been 'adjusted' to get the exact weight of the desired shot; Adjustable is better.
I do not use an over-the-shot wad, doing my adjusting at the bottom of the column.
To cut the shells to length, I took a hardwood block, bored an appropriate hole through it, and cut to length. I use it with the band saw to cut the shells.
Fuss with the cam to get the crimp right. If crimped properly the first time, they usually will be ok.
Hope this helps.
C.G.B.

[Eric Johanen]

I think the key to adding the over filler nitro card is to use lubed fiber cushion filler. The dry fiber fillers are hard and do not compress without a bunch of pressure. They also fly apart and can blow back into your face if the wind is right. Lubed they are softer and will compress a bit. Adding the nitro card over the filler allows for some compression and I've been getting perfect crimps since I started doing this. Also shot embedding in the fiber cuts down on the amount of shot that does the work. Much less chance of this when using a hard nitro card under the shot. Works for Cheddite, Remington and Federal hulls with both the 19 grain load of Red Dot and the load data using SR 4756.

[Paul Harm]

Eric, I believe the lub is unnecessary, and you're the first one I've ever heard of using it. I've loaded short 10's for a number of years and never found it necessary. If you use the right amount of cushion wads, the wads don't need to be compressed. The hard card on top may help, but I've never worried about a couple of bb's sticking in the wad.
Carl, I too love the ACB's - they're on all my presses except the one I use for fixing screw ups.
I've started using Green Dot and like it. Forget now how much.

[Eric Johanen]

Paul, I have been using lubed fiber fillers since I started loading black powder years ago. It does help keep the fouling softer than a dry fiber filler. I did not like the bits of the dry fiber filler blowing back into my face and when I started loading the 2&7/8 10 gauge I kept using the lubed 16 gauge fillers. It really does make a difference with blow back. Give them a try . I think you'd like them.

[Pete Lester]

Paul, I have been using lubed fiber fillers since I started loading black powder years ago. It does help keep the fouling softer than a dry fiber filler. I did not like the bits of the dry fiber filler blowing back into my face and when I started loading the 2&7/8 10 gauge I kept using the lubed 16 gauge fillers. It really does make a difference with blow back. Give them a try . I think you'd like them.

What blow back are you talking about, when the birds come in the wind is supposed to be going away from you :)

[Eric Johanen]

I suppose it would not be a problem if all the birds would be setting their wings and just floating down towards your blind. That is a beautiful sight!

[Pete Lester]

I loaded some 10ga shells today for the upcoming New Years Day shoot. The 19gr Red Dot and or Promo load is just so easy to load. Federal Hull cut to 2 7/8", Win 209 primer, 33 bushing of Red Dot, SP10 Wad and a 1/2 inch 20ga hard fiber wad (the old Alcan Feltan Blue Streak) and 1 1/8 ounce of #7.5. No fuss no muss, perfect crimps. They shoot great too.

[RICHARD HOUSER]

I took a few handfuls of the 10 short 19 grain loads to a range that has a couple of clay pigeon throwers (fixed position mechanical throwers). They are not fancy but they are strong.

My observation is that his load out of a modified choke was giving me clay busting hits at very long distances (40+ yards). I was letting the birds sail and choosing the shot on the descent (they are basically straight away shots).

I have never deliberately chosen to delay and never seen loads so effective at distance (with pleasant recoil). Is this the result of a "square shot load"? By this I mean that the shot column height is very close to the shot column diameter?

There were a couple of young shooters (maybe 30 years old) at another station. I asked them to each shoot 3 or 4 birds. I asked them to let the bird fly a bit before they engaged it. They each shot 4 birds, with 100% solid breaks. They missed nothing (young eyes). Both agreed that this was a fine long shot load and that nothing should be changed.

This was all with 7.5 size shot. I can't wait to see what the 6 shot will do for ranging.

thanks to all. rch

[charlie cleveland]

richard i have killed several squirls at 45 steps and beyond with this load useing no 6 shot...the red dot and green dot of pete lesters is probaly the finest load ever made for a 10 ga.....charlie