LOP and DAH questions

[Phil Yearout]

I assume that a lot of us who shoot these vintage guns shoot them as they come, not too much in the way of stock alteration beyond permanent or temporary recoil pads, etc?

I'm fairly average in height (a little over 5'11") and around 220lbs (OK; too fat!). Most of my guns are right around 14" LOP give or take an 1/8" or so. For a poor man's LOP gauge my late father-in-law used to put his hand in shooting position and lay the gun on his forearm; if the end of the stock hit the crook of his elbow he figured that was about right. I've also heard that if you mount the gun and your thumb doesn't hit you in the nose you're OK. At the range I'll typically shoot in a shirt and padded vest; in the field I might have as much as 3-4 layers; I always figured all that probably made more difference than a few fractions on the stock so I've never worried too much about it.

Most of my guns are around 2-3/4" DAH, again give or take an 1/8". I currently have a little 20ga on the way that's purported to have 3" DAH and I'm wondering if that's going to be a problem.

Part of me says don't overthink it, just shoot the durn things. I know I don't have the luxury of having all my guns restocked to the same dimensions, so if you don't either I'm curious as to how much variation you find acceptable between guns.

Any input/opinions appreciated. Thanks...

[Daniel G Rainey]

one of the most interesting and entertaining things about collecting and shooting Parker is finding a gun that fits me and my pocketbook that can used for bird to be hunted.

[Robin Lewis]

Great question! I'm looking forward to a good tutorial that just might make it into the FAQ page. Someone with a try-gun must know the answer to this.

[Mike Poindexter]

Phil: I am 6-2, 190 and find my ideal dimensions are 14 1/4, 1 1/2, 2 1/2 with no cast and 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 inches of pitch. Most of my Parkers are 14, 1 3/4, 2 3/4. I just lighten up the spot weld of my face on the comb, and they seem to do fine. I can shoot as much as a 3 inch drop at heel, but have to spot weld a little lower on my jaw than with the straighter guns. Anything over 3 and I pass on the gun--just too much to adapt to, although if it were my only gun I'm sure I could do it eventually. This sounds like I am a crack shot. I am not. I shoot 55% average at clays with 80% being my best day. Crossed dominant. I do a little better on large birds like pheasants and geese. I get 5 rounds of clays and 10 days in the field a year if I am lucky, so I won't be getting any better. Have fun.

[David Fishley]

If you think about a trap or skeet gun the essence of shooting accurately is mounting the gun over and over so it always mounts in the same position on your shoulder, where our face plants on the stock, how cocked your head is (held high or leaned down into the gun) where you place your hand on the forearm, etc. If you change any dimensions of the gun, wear a glove, add a few layers of clothes or fundamentally change your mounting positions you will feel the gun differently. The balance in relation to your body will change, it may kick more, it may slap your face, etc.

If you have a t-shirt on and mount a gun it will fit one way, if you are wearing 3 layers of clothes it will mount differently. That will throw your shooting off until you shoot it enough to compensate for the added LOP. It is the same for DAH, DAC and cast. If you have some agility in your arms, neck and head you can compensate for some but not all the factors. Some people because of their build and or dexterity are unable to compensate and poorly shoot guns that do not fit.

It is best to find or have measured for you a gun that fits best and when you purchase a new gun try to keep those dimensions within a small range of those measurements.

I have a Greener with a 13.5 lop which is too short for me. If I add a few layers of cloths it matters not. I still try to mount it in the same way as my other guns, my face lands on the wrong place on the stock and I get kicked in the cheek. I don't shoot it enough to train myself to compensate for the difference in LOP.

[Jerry Parise]

Well, if you have ever had a stock fitting and know your dimensions you could always have the stock bent for drop and cast. I have had this done to two guns and they both shoot beautifully for me now.

[Stephen Hodges]

I was fitted last winter at Connecticut Shotgun for a custom RBL that I ordered. I was a bit surprised at how high the dimensions were compared to what I thought I liked and shot pretty well. Long story short I love the gun and shoot it as well as can be expected. I just try and find guns that are close to that fit now.

[Robin Lewis]

I found this on the web and I think there are words of wisdom here.....
http://www.gundogmag.com/training/fine-tuning-a-shotgun-to-fit-you/

[Gary Laudermilch]

Phil, thanks for this interesting thread. It will indeed be entertaining because opinions on gun fit are so varied. Rather than offer my rendition of the ideal I'll offer this.

As coach for a youth shotgun team I struggled with getting new shooters getting a proper gun mount. That is, until I purchased a quality in-the-bore laser. Many shooters think they are pointing the gun at the target but the laser tells a different story. The laser does not lie. It has turned out to be one of the better purchases I ever made.

[Austin J Hawthorne Jr.]

Perhaps it's just my build, but I find the drop at the comb to be more important than the drop at the heel. I'm 5' 7" and 158. If the drop at the comb is between 1 1/2 to 1 5/8, it does not seem to matter much if the DAH is 2 5/8 or 3 1/4. Maybe it's because most of my guns have a short LOP and I shoot in a rather " heads up " position, but I prefer around 3 " at the heel.

[William Davis]

I can shoot the 3 inch drop guns if pay particular attention to keeping my head up and not putting my cheek hard on the comb. Instinctive fast shot am sure to forget causing a miss. My prefered drop at heel is about 2 1/2 inch. What really counts is drop at face which can be built up a bit with a strap on cheek pad. 4 of my Parkers have been from about 2 3/4 to 2 1/2 inches. 3 inches to 2 1/2 not always possible & if they can be bent that much pitch gets off with the bend.

Buy the way shotgun shell looking lasers are now very cheap off eBay and Amazon. ,under 20 bucks. They will let the spot drift around some, you can correct for it by putting a index mark on the rim.

William

[Gary Laudermilch]

In my experience the chamber insert lasers are inadequate. The one I find useful is a Robert Louis unit that fits in the muzzle and centers itself. It is not cheap however. While it is beneficial to new shooters I also find it helpful when I switch guns with different stock dimensions. Before going to the range with a different gun a few minutes with the laser beforehand helps immensely. One of my Parkers has 3" drop and requires a gun mount considerably different than others I use. The laser makes transitioning quicker.

[Drew Hause]

Just for interest regarding gun mount and turn-of-the-century dimensions
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1c7UkkNyMTZ9NAztILpzjSLKvgIneAw5i7eqkZ3d3Eno/preview

Whatever this fella is doing seems to be working ;) Crawling the stock with right thumb almost hitting nose. That's what I do, but obviously with less effectiveness :(

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/406477891.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Correct me if I'm wrong John Truitt, but that stock comb, from front to back, looks pretty level with the rib... is that your secret to success?





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[Phil Yearout]

Thanks for the input. To put it another way: for those who shoot their guns "off the peg" as it were, how much variation in things like LOP, DAH/C, etc. do you find acceptable?

[Drew Hause]

Phil: as observed we change LOP and DAC going from summer to winter shooting, 70 degree Kansas opener vest to 10 Kansas in January insulated coat. My regular recreational skeet SxS has the original buttplate (for Arizona "cold" weather ;) ) and a slip on pad for AZ hell season :(
It does take me a round or 5 of low gun skeet to get back in the groove with every change.

[scott kittredge]

I like 13 3/4 to 13 7/8ths lop, dac 1 5/8 ths to 1 3/4 and dah 2 3/4 to 2 7/8 ths,
scott

[Gary Laudermilch]

I like 14-1/4 LOP and no more than 2.5" DAH. I can shoot other dimensions but I have to work at it. I shoot low gun all the time and a longer LOP will sometimes cause a poor gun mount. For clays I change guns constantly so I am constantly adjusting. That is, until just before grouse season when I start using my preferred grouse gun and then seldom switch again until the season is over. Because I shoot it at clays once or twice a week as well I gradually shoot it with more clothes on and get used to it.

[Paul Harm]

Actually Drew, the gun should come up to your face, not your face bending down to the gun. And, you should be able to put two fingers between your face and hand. Now, people pre mount every which way and some shoot very good doing it. You put more weight on your front foot and your head will naturally go forward [ and down a bit ]. Equal weight on both feet and a more " heads up " style of shooting. If you stand more perpendicular to the target a shorter stock will work than one standing like a rifle shooters stance. So I don't believe there's a quick answer to your question. Mount your gun and see if you're looking down the rib. I'm 6' 3" and weigh 235 with a long neck. In the summer I like 15 1/4 LOP, 2 1/8 DAC, and 3 DAH. In the winter 14 5/8 LOP. And as you can tell, I shoot in a head up position. Practice mounting your gun, then shoot it on a pattern board if you're not satisfied with your scores. Good luck.

[Dean Romig]

I wish I could keep clicking on that "Thanks" icon.

Paul, I find your method - the same gun mount I use - to apply more in a quick mounting hunting situation than clays games... unless of course, you shoot 'low gun' at clays - which I do.





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[Drew Hause]

Paul, and all: We each need to find what works for us, and the link clearly shows that the turn-of-the-century "heads up" mount worked for some, but MOST "crawled the stock", as do International Bunker shooters universally, and as does Dr Truitt and Craig Bennett here

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/396552844.jpg

Capt. "Blue Rock" Money is crawling with a stock too long

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/406686109.jpg

As is this fairly accomplished International Skeet shooter ;) Vincent Hancock 2008 & 2012 International Skeet Olympic Gold Medalist

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/412172200.jpg

I also wouldn't 'splain to Kim Rhode that her (old Perazzi) stock is too long :rolleyes: : Gold Medal 2012 London, Silver Medal Skeet Beijing 2008, Gold Medal Trap Double 2004 and 1996

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/382984123.jpg

or to Jessica Rossi of Italy that she's gonna hit her nose with her thumb: London 2012 Olympic Gold, Women's Trap with record 99x100.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/21690841/403570605.jpg

Here is a brief live action film of the 1912 Olympic competition which shows the shooting styles of the U.S. (Gold medal), GB, GER, and Swedish teams; some with more erect postures, some quite crouched and crawling the stock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QR1eD2jaYkc&x-yt-cl=85114404&x-yt-ts=1422579428

[Paul Harm]

Capt Blue Rock looks just about right to me. :)

[Drew Hause]

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19758