Traditional charcoal & bone case color

[Paweł Janusz]

Hi dear Members,
My name is Paweł Janusz,
I have been doing a lot of traditional wood and metal finishing over the years. One of process is traditional case hardening developed to harden mild steel on actions of firearm by creating carbonized external surface of part that gets harden as quiches in water or oil. Side effect of the proces give part variety of spot colors creating a soul of the gun. I have been running many actions thru process so far, never enough. Some old English and some old American firearms. So far I always had successful outcome and every time process fills me with excitement and magic. This two pictures shows parts after process and parts after treatment for usage and on average pattern as my parts usually turn. I'm very happy with it as my customers too.
Cheers dear members
Paweł Janusz

[Justin Julian]

Pawel,

I am curious what temperature the frame was when you quenched it? The colors, especially in the first four photos, are not anything like authentic Parker colors, nor those of any other American maker that I am familiar with. Perhaps you are quenching at too high a temperature?
www.classiccasecolorsllc.com

[Paweł Janusz]

Temperatures are perfect, I can warranty it to you, I established process my self but I have work with guys from acgg for years and doing everything the proper way, I achieve proper depth of hardening on every surface all around. Colors are having nothing to do with it, and yes its not like a parker but it will if again: this will be restoration not renovation and customers pick of finish style.
Thank you dear members
Paweł Janusz

[calvin humburg]

Looks nice to me. But I am no expert. ch

[Paweł Janusz]

Dear Sir, there is no magic in anyting, colors are only side efect of surface hardening done thru catburizing and quench process. All is testable and to verify, heat treat houses do it every day for precision market and have to provide proof of effect. I was fortunate enough to obtain full old and new manufactur technology knowledge and experience that I combined with old traditional firearm trade. And old traditional firearms trade is and was the real proper manufacturing process, not like today with a lot of short cuts for speed and quality. Also if we look back at sears catalog from 1900 year we clearly see that 35$ for fancy Damascus parker was a high price, considering an hourly pay we can quickly come out with a simple conclusion that specialists who back then build them knew what they do and did it quick without magic, but I like how other masters making sure that I will provide right service for members. lol
Please share and Thank you dear member
Paweł Janusz

[edgarspencer]

Pawel, have you ever taken either Rockwell, or Brinell hardness tests after your temper cycle?

Second set of four pictures is very typical of Purdey and H&H.
Colors of your work may not replicate Parker CC, but they are a lot nice than some work I have seen. Colors can be affected by packing materials. Often, Bone, Charcoal, Leather, and other organic materials were mixed. Borax was used by both Colt and Winchester in the 1870-1890 era.

Short soak time at upper critical temperatures can cause varying colors on frames where section thicknesses vary. Temper/ Stress Relieveing cycle is important to reduce stresses developed in the Normalize and quench cycle, especially if quench medium is water, not oil or glycol.

We heat treated 7200- 10,000 tons of carbon, low alloy and stainless steel per year, in both inert, and atmospheric furnaces. One quench tank was as big as our swim club pool. We also sold a lot of heat treat pots to Colt, in West Hartford. I got to know the heat treat forman over there pretty well. Sadly, they're gone now.

[Paweł Janusz]

Thank you Mr. Edgar Spencer, I really like your post, very helpful and creative, yes I did test. I have my process working very well and with the existing schedule I didn't have time to experiment and / or create samples that I'm sure all you dear members will love, but I did got already 5 actions of old junk shotguns made out of mild steel that I'm going to use to experiment with, I will do that as soon as I move all to Missouri. Cc process has a lot of variables and experimenting is about trying one at the time and observation and conclusion so I will dedicate 2 weeks to develop different parretns, colors, dark or light.
Please Share, thank you dear members
Paweł Janusz

[Dean Romig]

The search for perfection is a never ending process.






.

[Paweł Janusz]

Perfection like a lot of other thinks is relative, I don't worry about it, but people look for variety so I give them it.
Thank you dear members
Paweł Janusz

[Bill Murphy]

Move to Missouri?

[Paweł Janusz]

yes, Missouri, piece of mind , quiet, natural, perfect for gun work

[Justin Julian]

So Pawel, at what temperature do you quench? What ratio of the bone and wood charcoal did you use?

[Paweł Janusz]

Thus is the question that is priceless and I only answer to my son, sorry

[Justin Julian]

That's a rather interesting response.....I have no problem telling anyone who asks that I use a 9:3 cup ratio of wood to bone charcoal, and cool down the work to 1150 F before quenching, as did Dr Gaddy.
www.classiccasecollorsllc.com

[Paweł Janusz]

So I'm old fashion and I don't. Customer tells me what he wants and I deliver 100%, some good customers are welcome to see my ways, other then that I DON'T
Thank you dear members
Paweł Janusz

[David Noble]

Justin, your link isn't working.

[Justin Julian]

It should be www.classiccasecolorsllc.com

[Paweł Janusz]

Nice work, nice web

[Bruce Day]

yes, Missouri, piece of mind , quiet, natural, perfect for gun work

Oh oh. Now we will have people from the coasts flooding in and ruining the state. Then they will try to make it a sanctuary state.

[Dean Romig]

Bruce, is your dog's name 'Spot'?





.

[Bruce Day]

Yes and for some reason the neighbors don't like it when I yell at him to return home.

[John Taddeo]

:rotf::rotf:

[Stephen Hodges]

Oh oh. Now we will have people from the coasts flooding in and ruining the state. Then they will try to make it a sanctuary state.

Bruce, I feel your pain. That not only happens in fly over country but right here in the east. My home state of New Hampshire was once VERY RED and now has turned blue. Folks moving in from south of us with there liberal ideas.

[Leighton Stallones]

Pawel, I have Dr. Oscar Gaddy's articles from 1996 on the Color case hardening process if you would like to have them in a pdf format. They may be helpful to you. If so, please e mail me at
l.stallones@centurytel.net

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar. you can not do a Rockwell test or a Brinnell test on a casehardened surface because the depth of the case is in the case of a gun receiver is less than .002 deep. Therefore when the diamond penetrator enters the casehardened surface it enters to deep giving a false reading. Casehardening leaves the inside soft which makes the component stronger. Carbon steels have a carbon content of 0.4% or higher and will harden through the entire part although the core will be softer than the surface

[Dean Romig]

...........:corn:





.

[Michael Moffa]

Carbon Steels usuaaly start with low carbon like 1008 and go up to 1030, medium carbon are 1040 to 1060 and high carbon is 1070 to 1090. Note the last two numbers refer to the decimal percent carbon content. These are simple unalloyed steels. Low carbon is not heat treatable per se but can be case hardened. The case depth is dependent on the process used and can be as little as .005 for nitriding and .010 for carbon packing and furnace heating. Gas carburizing can even go deeper.

Case hardening only makes the surface harder for low carbon steels. It does not make it stronger. What is the outcome of the process is a hard outer surface with a non-brittle tough core. Note that this is a very old process done with low tech steels.

[Bruce Day]

We need Ed "The Torch" Good to come back and explain case colors.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar. you can not do a Rockwell test or a Brinnell test on a casehardened surface because the depth of the case is in the case of a gun receiver is less than .002 deep. Therefore when the diamond penetrator enters the casehardened surface it enters to deep giving a false reading. Casehardening leaves the inside soft which makes the component stronger. Carbon steels have a carbon content of 0.4% or higher and will harden through the entire part although the core will be softer than the surface
I Probably should have asked if he did Vickers hardness testing, but it would have been rhetorical. >oo2 sounds a bit thin, as compared to etch testing already performed. I would expect to see case depths of .005 or thicker.
Carbon Steels usuaaly start with low carbon like 1008 and go up to 1030, medium carbon are 1040 to 1060 and high carbon is 1070 to 1090. Note the last two numbers refer to the decimal percent carbon content. These are simple unalloyed steels. Low carbon is not heat treatable per se but can be case hardened. The case depth is dependent on the process used and can be as little as .005 for nitriding and .010 for carbon packing and furnace heating. Gas carburizing can even go deeper.

Case hardening only makes the surface harder for low carbon steels. It does not make it stronger. What is the outcome of the process is a hard outer surface with a non-brittle tough core. Note that this is a very old process done with low tech steels.
This sounds too broad a statement, unless you know the chemistry. Soak times also affect depth.
Unlike many gunmakers, Parker used forgings with elevated nickel and moly, not plain carbon steel. Blindly heat treating anything without knowing its analysis can leave you with much deeper harness, and reduced ductility.
We need Ed "The Torch" Good to come back and explain case colors.
I KNEW someone would bring up good ole Ed's name in the conversation.
Admit it, Bruce, you miss him too, right?

[Bruce Day]

Oh yes Edgar. I do.

I fear some secrets have been lost without him, such as grade and viscosity of the motor oil, new or used and how long to apply the torch. And I miss his formidable writing skills.

It's part of being inclusive, valuing each and everybody and being a safe space. I'm glad you agree.

[Brian Dudley]

We need Ed "The Torch" Good to come back and explain case colors.



I think Ed was achieving better colors. And likey the same amount of warping.

[Mark Ouellette]

Okay guys,

As much as I hate to tell you this, please don't belittle those banned from this board. We are not letting back on to defend themselves!

Mark

[edgarspencer]

I'm not belittling him, Mark. I actually miss the old boy.

[Brad Bachelder]

As I have stated before, the process of color case hardening is fully controllable for pattern and color range. There are many reasons that each of the manufacturers, using similar process recipes, yield such different patterns. We employ different formulas for each type that we case. Every facet of the process impacts the yield in various ways. Dr. Gaddy understood this and was able to target certain aspects. Unfortunately the original manufacturers did not document their process.
Surface preparation is critical. The majority of the manufacturers did not use coatings over the metal. I have never seen an original Parker with Lacquer on the receiver, Smiths were all shellacked thus the case appears to peal off with wear.
In the case where appearance is not the target, case hardening is still important to protect the metal.

Brad

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar casehardening depths vary from less than.0005" (speed case) to .030" (carburize) and is regulated by time and process. Spin Drift was right that casehardening doesn't make it stronger. I should have said that casehardening maintains strength while providing a hard surface.

[edgarspencer]

Edgar casehardening depths vary from less than.0005" (speed case) to .030" (carburize) and is regulated by time and process. Spin Drift was right that casehardening doesn't make it stronger. I should have said that casehardening maintains strength while providing a hard surface.

Agreed. Have I said something to the contrary?

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar, earlier you commented along with myself and Michael Maffia that .002' depth seemed shallow to you and you expected depth to be .005' or more. In the past I have repaired 2 cracked receivers where I had to mill through the case which I found to be no more than .003 deep. I expect your experiences were different than mine.

[edgarspencer]

Carbon steels have a carbon content of 0.4% or higher

Carbon Steels usuaaly start with low carbon like 1008 and go up to 1030,
Craig, you and Michael seem to differ on the Carbon content of plain carbon steel. I am most familiar with ASTM A216, as that was our daily bread and butter. That document indicates an allowable max C of .030%. A 216 (and SA216 for ASME) are cast steel specifications.
Edgar casehardening depths vary from less than.0005" (speed case) to .030" (carburize)

Edgar, earlier you commented along with myself and Michael Maffia that .002' depth seemed shallow to you and you expected depth to be .005' or more. In the past I have repaired 2 cracked receivers where I had to mill through the case which I found to be no more than .003 deep. I expect your experiences were different than mine. You give fairly broad ranges of case depths here, and indicated you found depths of .003". That would certainly seem to fall into, and at the lower ranges.

As I indicated earlier, Parker began using forgings containing higher nickels, and our spectrometer indicated, on a VH20 to be much closer to a .35C NiCrMo alloy. That VH 20 is floating around New England somewhere, and can be identified by the 5/16" dia. etched circle on the watertable. That was a gun I owned and I did the analysis in order to select an electrode, and repair a crack in the top tang.
Yes, my experience was different than yours, but I suspect if we both sampled many more Parker forgings, our experiences would cross, and vary significantly.
A sidebar I found interesting; Parker regularly purchased forgings outside, as well as running their own forge shop. One well know forge was the Collins Company, in Collinsville, CT, and Billings & Spencer, in Hartford. If Parker produced some of their own receivers, I don't know where their ingots came from, as they did not pour steel in their foundry.

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar I think Michael and I in total agreement. Michael sights 1008-1030 as low carbon steels which are not hardened. I state that plain steels with a carbon content of 0,4 and above can be hardened, anotherwords 1040-1095 can be hardened. The VH you note which had 0.35 carbon can be hardened but in order to harden it using only its own carbon you have to reach critical temperature (martensite) before you quench. I believe Parker added carbon to the surface and quenched at a lower temperature leaving the core soft.

[edgarspencer]

. Carbon steels have a carbon content of 0.4% or higher and will harden through the entire part although the core will be softer than the surface

This is your statement, word for word, in post #25

You keep refering to AISI numbers and implying that steels with C lower than .40% cannot be hardened.(although your words in red simply state that carbon steels must have a C above .40) Low alloy grades, such as AISI 8625 are certainly hardenable, and even 1020 can be quenched and tempered for Brinnels above 200.
I owned and ran a foundry that made, on average, 300-400 tons of Carbon, Low Alloy and Stainless per month. It was nearly all for power generation and Mil shipbuilding industries. I did it for nearly all my working career. Frankly, your nightly arguing semantics with me is annoying.

[Craig Budgeon]

Edgar, I apologize for annoying you. I will refrain from responding to any of your threads in the future.

[Paweł Janusz]

I don't pay attention to names, why what did you say, I'm sorry if I have been grumpy, this social media's a lot of time get me going wrong way. sorry if it look like that I didn't mean to give you bad impression if I did. sometime I get attacked by guys because they are so protective of business and I get little hard. I'm a single business gunsmith/craftsman old fasion, not looking for much business as I do dedicated type of work, no production or rat race here, perhaps we started from a wrong foot. lol

[Craig Budgeon]

Paul, I annoyed a member of this forum for which I apologize. The contents of the dialogue did not involve you at all. You will have to read all the threads to understand what took place since your original post.

[Paweł Janusz]

demn, so many little details to pay attention, I'm new to forum. ok

[Brian Dudley]

Sometime I get attacked by guys because they are so protective of business and I get little hard. I'm a single business gunsmith/craftsman old fasion, not looking for much business as I do dedicated type of work, no production or rat race here, perhaps we started from a wrong foot. lol


Pawel,

Let me lend a piece of professional advice... for what it is worth. No one is trying to protect business or anything of the sort. I find that there is more than enough work to go around for the relative few that are doing good work.
However, you will find that those who appreciate Parker Guns are VERY particular about CORRECT treatments and finishes.
I would suggest that if you wish to continue working on Parkers, that you take the time to learn about what is and is not correct on Parkers and make sure that is the only type of work that is being done on those guns is correct work, or as close to it as you can muster.
It will benefit you greatly in the long run.

[Paweł Janusz]

I agree and understand, when it come to restoration the most of the time go to research on info on how the gun look and how was all finished with what tools surfaces ware prepared. Here is no comparison between renovating and restouration. I can renew parker in two weeks along with other project, it can take 12 to 24 months to restore old gun. I always respect any advise as I always learn, my stronger side is to figure out how to make and achieve right effect (tooling, technique, process), my weekend side is historical knowledge - I learn and discover that per project.

[Dean Romig]

Pawel,
You will find that those who appreciate Parker Guns are VERY particular about CORRECT treatments and finishes.
I would suggest that if you wish to continue working on Parkers, that you take the time to learn about what is and is not correct on Parkers and make sure that is the only type of work that is being done on those guns is correct work, or as close to it as you can muster.
It will benefit you greatly in the long run.


Brian gives timeless advice on the subject of working on Parkers - not only to the gentleman he addressed his advice to, but to ALL gunsmiths who wish to work on Parkers. Remember "Do no harm to a Parker shotgun." no matter how well-intentioned your work is.





.

[Bruce Day]

Blued frame and laminated steel barrels as done by professional gunsmith:

Twenty gauge.

[Paweł Janusz]

uff

[Paweł Janusz]

there can be a lot of story behind this picture that is known only to the one who did what he did and the one who found him. lol Iets not comment on that.