past Sanford SXS

[David Dwyer]

I have become more of a shooter than a collector and as such was really dissapointed this past April. They eliminated one 5 stand so they could sell more tables,the lines to shoot the sporting clays were sometimes 15-20 long and the wait for the practice 5 stand was over an hour. Anyone else feel as I do?
David

[Bruce Day]

David, that's been an issue for quite a few years. The UP, Duluth/Puglisi, Hausman's, the South Carolina, etc side by side shoots did not exist until people saw a need for them. To be fair to Bill Kuempfer, his Deep River event has become so popular that its overcrowded if a person wants to shoot. Still, it has the best vendor attendence outside Vintagers and the PGCA makes it one of its two recurrent official annual events. I suppose it depends what interests a person the most. I don't like buying guns in a crowd and I'm generally out of the gun market anyway, don't know what more I would want, and I like to shoot. I'm not a good enough shooter to make the Parker team, and its a long way to come.....but maybe next year I can make it back to see old friends. Just my view.

[Bill Murphy]

If I went to Sanford to shoot, I would be disturbed at long lines on the course, because that is a years old problem and should have been solved by now. Oddly, I have seen one station attendant cause a long backup singlehanded. I think some of us know who he is. There are many ways to streamline a crowded course. One way I have seen used successfully is to eliminate singles. Another is to add more birds to stations that go fast and take birds away from stations that are known problem areas. The simplest way to streamline a course is to use all stations, not just a few. Of course, Bill would have to man additional stations with volunteers if he feels the payroll is out of control.

[Bruce Day]

Bill Murphy is more optimistic than me that the shooting waits can be lessened. Its such an old problem, its been discussed so many times. To me, the Southern remains a great venue to greet old friends, meet new ones, get a little shooting done and look at guns, books, stuff. If a person really wants to burn powder, stay at your local club or if you live close by, join me at the same time in Nebraska at the Flatwater where you can shoot until your shoulder is sore for an inexpensive flat fee. Yes, you might not be in the station cage, but a person can be part of the line of shooters who will shoot a lost bird, or the bird at the next station. Bring your overalls, Hawaiian shirts, whatever but not tweeds or ties and you'll fit right in. Turn off the road at the fertilizer dealer, go past the cattle lot, down the muddy road, and you'll be there when you start seeing the Purdeys, Hollands, high grade Parkers, and bolt action Marlins.

[Harry Collins]

Automated traps
Four man squad
Shotgun start (10 stations with a squad on each shooting one single and two report pairs or two true pair)
A new group every one to one and a half hours

This eliminate the trappers and runs between 280 to 400 hundred shooters through the course if you started at 0800 and ended at 1800 (that's 8 AM to 6 PM). It almost took 10 hours to shoot 100 clays (two events) in a day the year I was fortunate enough to attend. The Southern is a wonderful event and I would come every year, shooting or no shooting, if things were a little better on this end. With a little work on Bill's part and commitment by the participants the Southern would run smooth as silk with only an hours or so per 50 bird event rather than half a day.

Harry

[Bill Murphy]

Bill Kempfler is a friend, and I would be glad to assist him in streamlining his course for the Southern. However, I assume he has NSCA shooters and promoters assisting him already, and I have not been involved in NSCA for several years. What I find strange is that the Southern is a business for Bill, and the money is leaking badly from the "course".

[Tom Carter]

The first year I went to the Southern I talked to a good friend who said he had to wait over two hours at one station to shoot. Others said the same. I physically cannot stand around over two hours waiting to shoot at just one station. I don't know how many stations they shoot but I would be carried off the course on a stretcher. My body can't handle that type of physical punishment so all I shoot is the challenge and hammer event. This year I waited over an hour to shoot a practice round prior to the qualifying round and did not get to shoot the practice round. I also tried to shoot a practice round prior to the hammer event and did not because of the wait. Bill is loosing revenue and I think he knows it but he does not seem to mind. Happy shooters and selling targets does not appear to be a priority. My attendance fits into Bruce's catergory of a social event, which I enjoy greatly, and I will continue to socialize with all my many old, and I hope many new friends I meet there. But I won't try to shoot any of the events except the challenge and hammer event, with or without a practice round. Cheers, Tom

[Carl Beers]

The Southern has one goal for Bill; that is to make money. He obviously feels he can make more money from vendor tables than from shooters. I attended for several years; had a vendor table for one of those years. Found Bill's attitude one I could get along without, so I stopped attending. His targets never change; took along time to get him to add the second 5 stand and now you're saying he's discontinued it? Why am I not surprised. The Southern is a social event rather than a shooting event; I've found other places to interact with SxS enthusiasts and from visiting with recent Southern attendees I think many SxS folks are looking for other venues as well. It happens to fall right in the middle of turkey season and I find the woods much more enjoyable than Deep River....just my thoughts......Carl Beers

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks guys...I find all this conversation very interesting. For me I have wanted to attend for years but the feedback that I got from guys who have attended was just what you all have enforced. I want to shoot...When I attend the Vintagers I shoot...When I attend Hausmanns I shoot all I can.In fact I just now got a call from Anderson and the Michigan boys and they are having a great time at the UP Shoot.

Don,t get me wrong I really enjoy seeing old friends and making new ones and checking out great guns at these events but if I couldn,t shoot at least a little I would be left wanting.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I'm stunned, on this very rare occasion I actually agree with something Bruce has to say. If you want to burn powder don't go to the Southern, it's not worth the pain.

DLH

[Bruce Day]

To me, the Southern remains a great venue to greet old friends, meet new ones, get a little shooting done and look at guns, books, stuff. If a person really wants to burn powder, stay at your local club or if you live close by, join me at the same time in Nebraska....



Of course a person can burn powder at the Southern, its a matter of how much. If a person thinks of it predominantly as a shooting event, he might be disappointed, but I think you have to look at the event as a whole. The vendors and getting together with PGCA people must be considered in my opinion. I like the Southern for those reasons. Some people come early, like Thurs and Fri to shoot a lot......Sat is the day for the crowds.

I wouldn't want something I say to be misquoted or taken out of context because that often changes the meaning.

[David Dwyer]

Bill M
Why don't you talk to Bill K for us. I know he has had offers from professionals to help solve this problem. but has not taken advantage of the help. He seem only focused on the venders and their $. He is nice guy but is loosing some people he does not need to loose.
David

[Tom Carter]

Mr. Suponski, If you want to shoot a bunch and spend time with Parker people and eat good sea food you should come to the Fall Classic at Backwoods Quail Club here in Georgetown SC in October. You will not find a better club or better shooting venue. But don't take my word for it. Talk to Mark Conrad, Dr. Truitt and others who have been here. Cheers, Tom

[Dave Suponski]

Thank You Tom,After all the good things I heard about the Fall Southern it's been in the back of my head.

[Bill Murphy]

David, I can't approach Bill K. with an offer to help because he has not approached anyone I know for opinion or advice. He is obviously happy with his bottom line and isn't interested in improving the intake of funds. When I hear he is interested in a meeting with shooters, I will attend.

[Ed Blake]

The Southern has become a victim of its own success. The facility has limited space and this year it was like a 10 pound lunch crammed in a 5 pound sack. That said, Bill K. has been a BIG supporter of the SxS venue outside of the Vintager format making possible the Challenge Cup which to me is the highlight of my shooting year and I never make the team. It's difficult to strike a balance between shooting and gun show and if Deep River had more space we would not be having this discussion. I'll continue to support the Southern because of the great people who attend, and the Parker/LC Smith shoot-off. If the PGCA and LCSCA decide to go elsewhere, so be it, but I don't think they will. And yes, we will attend the Fall Classic this year.

[David Dwyer]

ED
I agree with you completely. I just want to encourage him to maintain a balance between shooting and gun show and I think this year he erred on the gun show /$$ side. He could do a lot to improve the sporting clays ,even in that limited space. I have heard from a fair number of people that may not go next year unless the opportunity to shoot improves and I want them there. I shoot at Rick Hemmingway's Backwoods every week but really enjoy shooting at the Southern with all my Parker friends.
David

[C Roger Giles]

The Southern has two big issues with me.

Number 1. It is just too darn far to drive for a weekend of waiting in line to shoot in hot weather.

Number 2. The event always seems to be on the same weekend as the local high schools prom night ie again waiting in another line so I can have supper.

I prefer the Vintagers as I can get all caught up with the old aquaintices(sp) that kind of reminds me of a pack of dog running into one another sniff,sniff, and in a far more civil suroundings. Also has the advantage of closer to home ie not so darn far to drive for Parker fun.

The lack of enough shooting facilities has all but driven off the Michigan contingent and the lack of just a plain old trap range has me staying home also.

PTG Rog

[Ed Blake]

I agree with Roger on the trap range. I'd like nothing more than to participate in a vintage trap shoot at one of these get-togethers. Does the course in SC have a trap range?

[Bill Murphy]

If Rick thought we wanted to shoot trap, he would probably have a trap range up and running by the Fall shoot. Call him.

[David Dwyer]

Yes,There is a trap range at Backwoods. There are normally two SC courses of 12 stations each,Two five stands,a flurry and trap. You are correct,Rick is very accommodating and if asked would do his best to respond. The fall Southern SXS is focused on shooting not selling tables to dealers.
David

[Bill Murphy]

The Fall Southern is worth the trip. If Rick had checks from 200 vendors, he has more than enough room for tents to accommodate them. His facility hosts NSCA shoots including the SC State Shoot. He does not schedule a lot of NSCA shoots, quail hunting being his specialty, but he has been awarded the state shoot this year, two weekends before the Fall Southern. The course should be in good shape for our weekend.

[Carl Brandt]

I go to the Spring Southern SxS in Sanford primarily for the Parker/LC Challenge. I might do one round of SC for practice (shot early in the AM Friday) and will usually shoot between 1 and 2 cases of shells total, mostly on the challenge 5-stand. The SC course was 6 stations (5 eight Bird and 1 ten Bird) with separate stations on the single course for 10/12/16ga and 20/24/28/& smaller.

The Fall Southern at Backwoods is definitely for burning powder. You can shoot all of the events there, and do it again too if you are of a mind to do so. I don't recall any backups and the stations are not too far apart to just pass one by if a group is already there, go back, or get it on the way out. The SC course is generally set on two separate layouts, one for large bore and one for small. Hotel rooms are plentifull in Georgetown, SC and cheap as the shoot occurs during the off-season for beachgoers. This will be the 3rd year for the Fall Southern, vendor participation has grown dramatically and anyone who like to really shoot should consider putting it on their calendar.

I go to both and will continue to do so.

[Bill Murphy]

Since NSSA, NSCA, and flyers for money are all in my past, I have time to attend all Eastern Side by Side events. I do the Southern, the Northeast, the Vintagers, and the Fall Southern. Any one of them has a weekend of skeet beaten by a mile.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

The fall southern is during the hunting season, I just can't see blowing a weekend of the real thing on clay shooting. Rick is a great guy though, if I was going to do it that would be where I'd go.

DLH

[Mike McKinney]

I went to the Southern this year after hearing you all talk about it. I might say that though I was interested I really didn't plan to shoot as I was not accustomed to sporting clays and really just wanted to see some of it happen.

My real "want to" was to meet some of you and see some nice Parkers. I got there Friday morning, and it was about a 4 1/2 hour drive. I looked around a good bit and came to the Parker table, Ed Morgan was selling tickets and I enjoyed some conversation with him. Charlie Herzog was at the table, as far as I'm concerned there could hardly be a better representative than he. He made me welcome.

I got to meet Charlie Price and Bill Mullins and enjoyed my time with them both, they are just good men and even got my copy of TPS signed. Jim Hall drove us to supper where Larry and Deb Frey, Josh Loewensteiner and his dad were waiting. Just a great evening because I got an invite and wasn't in that hotel room.

I guess I hung around that table a lot, but Austin Hogan was making pictures and notes of an early Parker and seemed to be happy to have school while he was doing it. Got a good tip or two from Allan Swanson.

My only regret was never finding Carl Brandt who had given me a lot of info before I decided to come.

I guess my point is that these folks and more represented PGCA really well and I suspect that is pretty important.

Mike

[Rich Anderson]

IMHO The Southern is NOT a shooting event. I went for 6years in a row usually came away with at least one gun usually two which is fine. But when I drive 13hrs I want to burn some powder and not have to break the bank and wait for hours to do it. therefor I (and most if not all the MI shooters) haven't returned.

To spend $40 for a SC round is ok with the type of venue but to have only 6 stations is absurd and $15 for a 5 stand course and wait for hours is equally rediculous. If you want to see some very nice guns and shoot the s&%t with old friends and make new ones there is no better place than The Southern.

The U.P. shoot is limited to 120 shooters who are pre squaded. You have times and events and you had better be there. We shot the SC on Sat am at 9:30 and had the rest of the day for side events. Sun was the flurry then the pigeon Ring with time for side events in between. This is a very well run shoot wih good vendor participation and lots of shooting. If you can't go through at least 3 cases of shells then you just arn't trying.

As for the fall southern it's like the Vintagers its during bird season. I agree with Destry that I'd rather shoot at a bird pointed (Ducks for Mr. Hoffard) by my dog than a clay target. Fall is he time for real birds not clay ones.

[Larry Frey]

I agree with Rich and Destry, as much as I love to shoot sporting clays, from September 15th thru December 31st I have a bow, rifle, or Parker in my hands in pursuit of game.:)

[Eric Eis]

It's too bad that the Fall Southern can't be moved up to the Spring Southern.....It sounds like a great shoot just a very bad time of the year. I am sure the Michigan boys would come again if we could shoot more then a couple of boxes of shells. The Southern to me was to meet people and socialize and in someways I wonder why we have the Parker/Smith shoot there why not at the Vintagers? I guess Bill doesn't care about the shooting all he cares about is the dollars but you can only go down that road so long.....